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Member
Posts: 19
| As outlined in my throttle linkage thread, finally got that linkage back together.
While the car sat, I discovered an apparent leak from a failed pinion seal. So the plan was to get the car running and take it to a shop for seal repair.
But that plan went awry when I tried to move the car out of the garage yesterday with a plan to wash it and maybe take a short spin. I got it out but it took a lot of throttle to overcome what felt from the seat as if the parking brake was engaged. I regretted that I had set the parking brake while the car sat for over a year and imagined the rear shoes may have stuck to the drums.
I parked it on the driveway and proceeded to wash it. I then opened the Shop Manual to study the parking brake. Discovered it is a separate small drum at the rear of the Powerflite. I repeatedly engaged and released the hand brake. And I also crawled under the car and hit the drum with a rubber mallet. Crossed my fingers and hoped I got it free.
But when I put it in drive, it rolled just a bit, then suddenly the brakes locked at the rear. I was able to drive in reverse, it seemed to roll okay. But putting it back in drive, it again just rolled maybe a couple feet, then locked up. I had my wife watch and she saw that the right side rear wheel freely rolled, but the left (driver) side rolled just a bit, then locked up. Going in reverse freed it up, but going forward yielded the same result each time.
The driveway was wet from the wash so I was thinking nothing had really changed from when I first pulled it out except that the lack of friction allowed the tire to slide whereas perhaps the wheel had still spun with a lot of resistance from the brake on dry pavement.
Regardless, it was all I could do to get the car back in the garage, using reverse. There it sits.
Just 18 months ago, we experienced a near (or maybe exactly) identical problem. The car was towed to a shop and diagnosed. The tech reported that he found the driver side rear wheel "brake shoe material had come off, and wedged itself into the wheel cylinder, and brake hardware." The shop installed a new brake cylinder, a REBUILT brake shoe (they claimed they could not obtain a new shoe), and billed an exorbitant amount for labor. It was because of the repair that I initially figured it could only be a parking brake issue.
After that repair, the car was immediately relocated, transported by trailer to a new home. It was only driven home a few miles from the shop and on and off the transporter. The car was unloaded in town and then driven without issue approximately 12 miles up a pretty steep mountain to the new home. Dick is my father-in-law, now living with us. I made the drive from town. I had not previously driven the car on the road but I had driven it when the brake failure prevented forward movement and barely returned it to the garage that time. I knew about the brake repair. I thought dad might've been hosed but if it was repaired, I had no reason to say so.
In the drive from town, I thought the brakes didn't seem all that "good". I am familiar with the feel of non-power assisted drum brakes on my own '64 Pontiac. The Plymouth just felt like it lacked real stopping power. It is a much heavier car than mine but still the brakes didn't inspire confidence. Since I had no prior experience I could not say if they felt worse than anytime previously. But for what he paid, I thought they should have felt a lot stronger.
I will be taking it to a local shop to check it out. But I'm wondering what you all might think could be wrong.
I'm pretty sure new shoes and drums can be sourced. Perhaps the lining came off the rebuilt shoe again. That will be obvious when the drum is removed.
But could something else be wrong? |
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Member
Posts: 19
| Going thru Dick's Plymouth paperwork this morning, I was reminded that when he acquired the car, the brakes seemed pretty weak. I remember driving it one time back then (2016 or 2017) and telling him he really needed to have the brakes checked because when I applied the brakes even at low speed, it felt like I was trying to stop a train, it would eventually stop but it took its sweet time doing it. I believed it was unsafe.
He took it to a different shop at that time. They replaced all SIX wheel cylinders and two of the brake hoses. He waited way too long to buy this hobby car as he was already 82 and not in great shape. But he was excited to have it, his first new car was a '55 Belvedere 2 dr. hardtop that he always remembered fondly. As his condition worsened, it sat in the garage for months on end, he got to drive it very little. His mobility continued to decline and about 2 years ago he stopped driving altogether. His mobility issues are why he now lives with my wife and I. Before coming here, he tried to sell it but found no interest even at a fraction of what he had paid for it (that's a whole 'nother story). We had the space to keep it here and I felt he would enjoy hanging on to it especially if I could take him out for joy rides in it, so we had it transported here. That plan hasn't really panned out because it has been undriveable since arriving here.
The Plymouth was driven just 46 miles after the wheel cylinders were replaced in 2017 before it was towed in for the brake shoe repair last year.
It was driven just 24 miles since the rebuilt brake shoe repair about 18 months ago until now.
Still hoping to get some thoughts from anybody here with knowledge of the '55 brake system. Also if anybody knows a good source for new drums, shoes, and brake hardware, that would be helpful too. |
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Expert
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Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | I would suggest getting a diagnosis regarding the described brake issues, not just changing parts. |
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Expert
Posts: 4115
Location: Connecticut | I would strongly recommend that if you have plans to keep and drive this car that you buy a factory shop manual. Ebay is a good source. Buy an original, not a repro, as the repros are poor quality.
Next, read and get familiar with how 1955 Mopar brakes work. In fact, become an expert. These brakes are on a different planet from your Pontiac brakes. Also, don't expect any mechanic to be able to understand or figure out these brakes. They won't know that the one piece drum/hub assemblies are mounted on a tapered axle, which requires a special puller to remove. They will likely not fix anything, but charge you many hundreds of dollars for their 'repairs'. You've already experienced that.
My best advice: Buy the necessary tools. Do your own repairs. Ron
Edited by ronbo97 2024-09-10 2:32 PM
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Expert
Posts: 4115
Location: Connecticut | Parts: Andy Bernbaum Auto Parts, Rock Auto. Occasionally NAPA. Avoid Kanter Auto Parts. Drum/hub assemblies are not available. You have to work with good used parts. DO NOT attempt to separate hubs from drums. Don't listen to any mechanic that suggests that. Ron |
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Veteran
Posts: 110
Location: Palm Beach County Florida | My 56 CRL had sat for 20 years in a museum when I bought it. When I drove it off the transporter, I had the same problems with the brakes as you had. My advice is to replace ALL the brake parts: shoes, wheel cylinders, master cylinder, springs, grease seals and do not forget the brake hoses. I have never belonged to the "There is never time to do it right but there is always time too do it over" school. |
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Member
Posts: 19
| All good advice. Shep, as mentioned in the first post, I will be taking it to a local shop for diagnosis. Old guy and his son, father same age as me, grew up, like I did, working on old iron so they know their way around an old car.
Ron, you may have missed it in my first post where I mentioned turning to the Shop Manual to study the parking brake. Dad has a factory original but before he got that one, my wife and I put together and gifted him a perfect copy of a factory Shop Manual, printed on my laser-jet printer. Assembled it into two binders, each individual page in a plastic sheet protector. I use this copy so as not to damage his original. I do that for my own cars when possible, I'm just OCD that way!
I almost never take any of my cars to a shop. With apologies to pro mechanics out there, I just don't trust anyone else to care for my cars the way I do. I have my share of stories for things that happened to my cars while being worked on in a shop.
In this case, it is not my car. I would love to have the time to spend on dad's car because I just enjoy car repair. But I stay more than busy with my own stuff and frankly, I thought this car was a POS when he bought it, I was appalled to learn what he paid for it. If it was up to me, he would have kept looking. Dad never learned about cars and never did his own repairs. So he always was at the mercy of a shop. What he really needed to buy was a nice driver. What he bought was a pig with lipstick.
I have looked at the brake system in the Shop Manual. I don't intend to become an expert on them but I learned enough to know they are very different from the drum brakes that I first began working on in '72 while still in HS on cars from the '60s.
Ron, great advice about the drum/hub assembly and the tapered axles. I will discuss that with the shop although I suspect they are already familiar and would have the puller. I'm aware of Bernbaum, bought the repro brake pedal pad from him. Depending what parts are needed, I can check Rock Auto, have had mostly good luck with them but a couple months back bought rear bearing hub assemblies for one of my daily drivers. They blamed their vendor for the incorrect application info and I was out return shipping. Lesson learned. My next door neighbor owned the NAPA store in town for about 35 years so he hooks me up whenever I need something from them even though he sold the biz several years ago. I've never dealt with Kanter but would have thought they were a good source. Is there something in particular I should know about them?
Anybody know where to get high quality new shoes? Anybody favor riveted vs bonded and are new riveted shoes even available for the '55 Plymouth? |
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Expert
Posts: 4115
Location: Connecticut | Thanks for the info, Dick. I bought my 55 Desoto brake shoes from Bernbaum. They're fine. Kanter: Just avoid them, despite their flashy catalogs. Too many stories to go into here. If you want to test out your mechanic, ask him to describe how he would remove the rear drums and what puller he would use. If he just pulls out a standard, large jaw puller, walk away before he ruins the drums. OTOH, if the describes the tapered axle and pulls out a three leg tapered axle puller, then maybe he knows something. Here's what a tapered axle puller looks like:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/186567173627 Ron |
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Veteran
Posts: 150
Location: Mandurah, Western Australia | I have a 55 Plymouth Belvedere V8 wagon with powerflite, also a 29 and a 38 Plymouth. The rear brakes are similar on all, the 55 fronts have twin wheel cylinders. The brakes were supposedly done when I bought it. I have ended up replacing everything and they now work well. Someone had separated the rear drums from the hubs and that has caused me grief. I have a good secondhand set to install when I get time. The front brakes have a short flimsy slotted rod between the cylinder and the shoe and the shoes aren't restrained very well so basically all had to be replaced as the shoes had canted over and the rods were damaged. I always take shoes and drums to a brake specialist, get drums turned and bonded shoes matched to drums. The final setup of these brakes is critical and I recommend using a tool to ensure concentric with correct clearance. Here is a simple one I use https://p15-d24.com/topic/50182-brake-adjustment-tool-updated/ |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 460
Location: Beaumont TX | Hi Dick,
I have a factory service manual and also a downloaded service manual which I can send you. You should also have a copy of the parts manual and Index that Dave F. made and I can send you a copy.. In the parts manual, you can find parts numbers and exploded views of things which is very helpful. I'll have to email these to you because the files are too big to upload to this forum. I'll try to send them to you in a PM. If that doesn't work, I can send them to you via your email and I'll try this now.
Regarding your brakes, the problem might be some air in the brake system. It would be good just to bleed out all of your brakes and see if that helps. It's pretty easy to do and something you should do every 2 years or so anyway. The problem can be a pushed out back wheel cylinder or it could be that the brakes are just adjusted too tight on that wheel. Look in the service manual is adjust to loosen the brakes on that wheel and see if it frees up. Then readjust the brakes according to the service manual procedure. But I think bleeding out the whole system is a good first step.
If both back wheels are locked up, it could be your emergency brake, but if only one wheel is locked up, it is likely not your emergency brake.
Sam
Edited by samstrader 2024-09-12 12:47 AM
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Expert
Posts: 2648
Location: Minor Hill, TN | Its up to you but on my '61 I converted to front disc brakes for better stopping . You might want to think about this but like I said it is up to you Good luck to you |
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'55 Belvedere Brake Issue
