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Member
Posts: 22
| Hi all -
I have a nice '55 New Yorker with a 331 hemi. She runs pretty good and the transmission shifts well but leaks.
I'm debating rebuilding both, or possibly swapping with something else.
Ideally I'd looking for better than stock, if I'm rebuilding I need someone who really knows what they're doing, and taking cost into consideration...what's my best options?
Rebuild? Enhancements?
Swap? What type? Engine and transmission.
I'm located in NY and not looking to spend a million bucks. What can I expect to spend to "do it right"? |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 587
 
| If it runs, drives and shifts well why bother rebuilding anything?
Fix the leaks and enjoy it. |
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Exner Expert 10K+
Posts: 10033
Location: So. Cal | You would have to be insane to swap the 331 hemi for a different engine. The powerflite transmission, on the other hand, isn't great. If you are good with swaps, I would recommend swapping that out for a push button 727 from '62-'65. Although the '55 New Yorker doesn't use push-buttons, it should be possible to hook up the cable shift transmission to your original shifter. You'll need a $400 trans adapter from Hot heads to do it. If you get a 727 from a truck, it'll have the parking brake on the back of it and you won't need to rig up anything with a new rear axle. The 727 will also give you a park function that you can adapt to the bottom of your dash.
The first thing to improve on your engine is to install a strong coil and electronic ignition. If the engine runs well with good compression, but you would like to improve the performance further, you can:
Valve job with new, larger valves from hot heads, new springs, bushings. $1000
New aluminum intake from hot heads: $400 (Optional: improves performance, but mainly reduces weight)
New performance camshaft, timing set & lifters from hot heads: $550
4bbl AFB caruburetor from an early '60's 383 or 361, rebuild: $200
4 bolt exhaust manifolds with 2.5" dual exhaust (optional, but recommended)
Replacing the pathetic original cam with something with much better performance like a 270 or 280 grind is the best improvement to power that you can make to your engine. The other parts I listed are also required if you decide to change the cam - other than the intake & exhaust manifolds. Couple that with a good electronic ignition and it'll feel like a different engine. The second best thing you can do to improve the performance of your engine is to dramatically increase the compression ratio. But this requires a full rebuild with custom pistons. You'll want to increase it to 10.5-11:1 compression if you do.
Edited by Powerflite 2024-10-18 3:54 AM
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Expert
Posts: 3082
 
Location: N.W. Fla. | Powerflite - 2024-10-17 12:25 PM
You'll need a $400 trans adapter from Hot heads to do it. The second best thing you can do to improve the performance of your engine is to dramatically increase the compression ratio. But this requires a full rebuild with custom pistons. You'll want to increase it to 10.5-11:1 compression if you do. Personally I like the QEC (Wayfarer here on the board) adaptor. You can go with cast pistons from Egge with the nominal 8.5:1 C/R or double the price with forged pistons and C/R of your choice. |
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Expert
Posts: 3585
Location: Blythewood, SC | I'd swap it out for a modern Hemi. With a Holley engine harness and computer it will start better, run more efficiently, and get better economy and power. I would also swap to an A518 or A500 overdrive automatic.
Unless you just want it to be all original. But I rarely drive my all original 57 any more. I jump in my modified Camaro all the time. I like to drive them more than work on them.
Edited by 57plymouth 2024-10-18 7:04 AM
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Exner Expert 10K+
Posts: 10033
Location: So. Cal | But if you convert your original engine to fuel injection, you could have the same thing without all the trouble, and without a big hideous plastic eye sore sitting under the hood. Fuel injection has some real benefits, but it isn't limited to only run on newer engines. So why not convert your '57 to run fuel injection if you like it that much? |
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Exner Expert 10K+
Posts: 10290
Location: Lower Mainland BC | .
Here is a link to some of Holley's electronic fuel injection (EFI) products. Not cheap. And you need at least an electric fuel pump and return line (back to your fuel tank). Not sure if they all need an O2 sensor (for the
feed back and control loop)
https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/fuel_injection/
Not sure what would fit on a Carter WCFB type intake manifold.
I guess the Sniper and Terminator carb replacement EFI systems would be the ones that I would look at.
(If I was looking) 
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Expert
Posts: 3585
Location: Blythewood, SC | Powerflite - 2024-10-18 5:47 PM
But if you convert your original engine to fuel injection, you could have the same thing without all the trouble, and without a big hideous plastic eye sore sitting under the hood. Fuel injection has some real benefits, but it isn't limited to only run on newer engines. So why not convert your '57 to run fuel injection if you like it that much?
Because my car has a flathead six and a powerflite. I have several old cars in the process of being built. When I circle back around to my 57, I'm going to modernize the drive train.
Modern engines don't have to be ugly. And old engines aren't always reliable. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 906
Location: Peoples Republic of Oregon | A1gio2 - 2024-10-16 5:56 PM
Hi all -
I have a nice '55 New Yorker with a 331 hemi.
She runs pretty good and the transmission shifts well but leaks.
I'm debating rebuilding both, or possibly swapping with something else.
Ideally I'd looking for better than stock, if I'm rebuilding I need someone who really knows what they're doing,
What can I expect to spend to "do it right"?
Some thoughts...
How nice is 'nice'? Is this a 90 point car?
If it runs pretty good, what else do you want it to do?
Plenty of potential swaps for the car, none will be cheap unless you are doing all of the work. Do you have the appropriate skills and garage space?
Any rebuild, done right, should be better than stock since you will have many options. The challenge is finding a decent machine shop.
Cost...? are you doing all of the work except for the machine shop or farming the whole project out? NY may have different basic costs but you
should budget about $7K for a mostly stock rebuild. When you start adding hot-rod parts expect to see $10K.
If someone else is doing the project for you the cost could double. |
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Exner Expert 10K+
Posts: 10033
Location: So. Cal | 56D500boy - 2024-10-18 4:52 PM
.
...And you need at least an electric fuel pump and return line (back to your fuel tank). Not sure if they all need an O2 sensor (for the
feed back and control loop)
Not sure what would fit on a Carter WCFB type intake manifold....
You'll need those changes to your fuel system and O2 sensor in your exhaust for any EFI whether it comes from an aftermarket system on an old engine or on a modern one. The Chrysler WCFB was closer in size to the newer AFB, so it doesn't have the small square bolt pattern that the Dodge/Plymouth version used. An older AFB will bolt right onto the 331 4bbl intake.
The engine master's challenge proved that you can get better performance from a modified 331 than you can from a modified 5.7 GenIII hemi. Was it cheap? No, but you don't have to go that far if you don't want to. Modifying a 331 to beat a stock 5.7 hemi isn't very difficult. Modern transplants are just lazy IMO. Just like the fools that put aftermarket gauges & steering wheels in their car so they don't have to repair the old ones, putting in an automatic floor shifter so you don't have to adapt or repair the original shifter, and putting a cheap vinyl pattern on the seats so they don't have to get the proper fabrics. Or even worse, adapting cheap newer Toyota or other seats in the car. Car shows are full of these cheap, lazy modifications. As common as '57 Chevys are, it's odd how rare it is to find one that looks stock. Or the ultimate in lazy, just cut the body off of a newer car and swap the old body onto the newer chassis. If you really want cheap, just purchase a '90's Camaro and have fun with it instead.
In terms of reliability, the only thing the 5.7 or other modern engine has over the 331 is the fuel injection system. But put an aftermarket EFI system on the 331, and you'll realize the same kind of reliability and longevity that the 5.7 enjoys from it. But it won't suffer from some of the design issues that the 5.7 has. The 331 in my '56 Savoy has been running since 1955 without pause and with a considerable amount of abuse. I seriously doubt you'll get that out of a 5.7. But it is suffering much more from wear, due to not having the exact fuel ratio that a fuel injection system would give to it.
But the powerflite transmission has serious limitations in terms of drivabilty and performance. So swapping that out makes sense and you won't see it anyway.
Edited by Powerflite 2024-10-20 1:43 PM
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Expert
Posts: 3082
Location: N.W. Fla. | Powerflite - 2024-10-20 12:26 PM
[ The Chrysler WCFB was closer in size to the newer AFB, so it doesn't have the small square bolt pattern that the Dodge/Plymouth version used. An older AFB will bolt right onto the 331 4bbl intake.
The engine master's challenge proved that you can get better performance from a modified 331 than you can from a modified 5.7 GenIII hemi. Was it cheap? No, but you don't have to go that far if you don't want to. Modifying a 331 to beat a stock 5.7 hemi isn't very difficult.
In terms of reliability, the only thing the 5.7 or other modern engine has over the 331 is the fuel injection system. But put an aftermarket EFI system on the 331, and you'll realize the same kind of reliability and longevity that the 5.7 enjoys from it. But it won't suffer from some of the design issues that the 5.7 has. The 331 in my '56 Savoy has been running since 1955 without pause and with a considerable amount of abuse. I seriously doubt you'll get that out of a 5.7. But it is suffering much more from wear, due to not having the exact fuel ratio that a fuel injection system would give to it. The Edelbrock carb with the Hot Heads squeeze plate adaptor works fine, or bore through the adaptor & OEM intake to get a straight shot. As far as the 5.7/345 is concerned I don't think you'll ever get the performance & 32 highway MPG out of a 331. |
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Exner Expert 10K+
Posts: 10033
Location: So. Cal | Most of the MPG improvement comes from 6 things: 1. Better, more efficient transmission & rear hwy gearing. This has the biggest effect on mpg. 2. Roller cam that improves low end torque coupled with good compression. 3. Long stroke vs. bore size to improve low end torque & reduce rpms further. 4. Efficient air flow through engine. A ram air effect will further improve low end torque. 5. Reduced weight. 6. EFI
No. 1 is relatively easy to do and will be required no matter which engine you choose to run. Custom roller cams are readily available for the 331. It's just a matter of applying the right specs to get great low end torque - which most people don't do. You can actually use more compression than the 5.7, so you are ahead in that aspect. The stroke/bore ratio for the 331 vs. the 5.7 is actually better on the 331 for getting good mpg. 3.625/3.8125 on the 331 vs. 3.578/3.917 on the 5.7. The 331 hemi flows very well for high rpm use. Not so great for low rpm - especially on the exhaust side. The exhaust ports are too big. But install a set of early heads, or aluminum heads with smaller, improved exhaust ports, and you'll do very well. Couple it with a good custom header, and you'll do just as well as the 5.7 in this regard, or possibly even better. The 331 is quite heavy, but if you are willing to spend money to upgrade to aluminum parts, you'll end up pretty close to the 5.7 weight.
The 331 doesn't have a long ram air effect like the 5.7 hemi, but it has a couple of things that are actually better for mpg, including having a smaller displacement and a longer stroke ratio. If that is what you really want to build the engine for, you should be able to get pretty close to the same mpg capability, with a chance of doing even better. But it is very rare for an early hemi builder to concentrate on mpg performance when he builds his engine.
In my experience, it actually isn't that hard to get massive improvements in mpg. I was getting around 12 mpg with a dead stock 318/904 in my '70 Satellite wagon. You just have to accept that right? No. I improved the exhaust on the engine with magnum exhaust manifolds and dual exhaust (the single exhaust "Y" was garbage and was really hindering air flow), coupled it with a 4bbl and it improved to 14-15 mpg. Then I installed a 700R4 and hwy gears in the rear and the mpg improved to 20mpg. Very quickly and easily I was able to get the car much closer to modern standards without even rebuilding the engine. If I converted to EFI and a magnum style roller cam, this would improve even further.
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Member
Posts: 22
| I appreciate all the replies.
The car is a nice driver quality car that's had a repaint and interior redone. Nice headturner in shantung green/white but probably in a solid 3 condition. With that said I'm not looking to spend BIG money. I had it out this weekend and it runs good! Takes a few minutes to "level out" after starting but the at might be normal for a 70 year old motor with close to 100k miles.
Issues:
The car will vapor lock when hot/warm.
It breaks up under full throttle. Up to 3/4 throttle it runs out nicely but if I floor it; it will bog/break up a bit.
Trans is leaking from somewhere. Annoying but no performance issue. Is there any common spot or seal that goes on these that can be easily fixed? Do I need a rebuild?
The original 331 sounds good and has its charm so I'll prob keep it that way. Just debating what/when warrants a rebuild on these motors. |
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Exner Expert 10K+
Posts: 10033
Location: So. Cal | I suggested the valve job because that's often what goes bad on the engine first. But it sounds like your valves are doing fine. You'll know when you need to address them when you start to get back-fires & popping in the exhaust.
The first thing to prevent vapor lock is to move the fuel line away from hot surfaces & replace all the hoses before the fuel pump - especially the one at the tank. Any crack or slight leak will make the problem much worse and it won't leak fuel from these cracks because the system back there is under vacuum.
The high speed problem sounds like a worn out accelerator pump or some partially plugged holes in your carburetor. Rebuilding the carburetor should take care of it. You can try filling the carburetor with carb cleaner through the carb vents after the car has been sitting a couple of days (so it's empty). Then running the engine with that carb cleaner going through it. Often, that will clean out some of the problem passages without having to rebuild it. You can also try putting a cleaner into your tank and running that through there, though I've had less success with those.
If you do decide to install fuel injection on your car, it's not real expensive, but it does require some modifications: EFI fuel pump & return line & eliminate original fuel pump, air cleaner adapter or modification to the larger carb opening, air cleaner paper element conversion, oxygen sensor bung in exhaust, temperature sensor in engine. It will be much more responsive and less temperamental if you do.
The most common place for the trans to leak is through the shifter cable opening. They usually have an O-ring seal there, but I'm not sure on the '55 powerflite. The next common places are at the front seal & sometimes at the rear seal. The front seal requires removing the transmission to get to it, but the rear can be done by just removing the e-brake assembly.
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Expert
Posts: 3082
Location: N.W. Fla. | Make sure it says Carb cleaner, not Fuel Injector cleaner, that will mess up a carb. The 331 I built in the 90s ran fine with the H.H. squeeze plate, but when I built my current 331 around '08-09 I found I had to add a phenolic spacer between the squeeze plate & the carb to keep it from crapping out at stop lights in the Fla. summer poorer gas quality. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 906
Location: Peoples Republic of Oregon | A load of ethanol and a hot, older, fuel system can cause plenty of drivability issues. I agree with the carb rebuild as a first step and certainly a phenolic spacer as a smart step. |
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Veteran
Posts: 110
Location: Palm Beach County Florida | Non-ethanol gas from WaWa solved all my vapor lock problems in Palm Beach FL |
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Engine rebuild or swap?
