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Rob

Posted 2006-02-20 8:55 PM (#50749)
Subject: Timing Marks do not Line Up. Why?

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I just bought a very original '61 Fury with the 318 poly. Car has 65,000 miles, engine has never been apart.

The service manual says the timing should be 10 degrees. When I line up the marks, the engine backfires through the carb. I found TDC and marked a new TDC line on the lower pulley. The new line is about two inches away from the factory TDC line.

Why won't the timing marks line up? What can I do to fix this problem?

SENIX

Posted 2006-02-20 9:53 PM (#50753 - in reply to #50749)
Subject: RE: Timing Marks do not Line Up. Why?

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Location: CEMENT CITY MICH.

HAVE YOU UNHOOKED THE VACUM FROM THE DIST? IS THE DIST ADVANCE DIAFRAM GOOD? HAS THE DIST EVER BEEN OUT OF THE ENGINE?AS THE INTERMEDIATE SHAFT MAY HAVE BEEN ACCIDENTILY MOVED. HOW DID IT RUN BEFORE YOU TIMED IT?

SWANNY

plypete

Posted 2006-02-20 10:30 PM (#50758 - in reply to #50749)
Subject: RE: Timing Marks do not Line Up. Why?

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Location: Centerville, SD

If you found TDC and the "0" marks do not line up, the only two things I can think of is that ther is something wrong with the crank pully/damper or the timing indicator. If I remember right, earlier 318's had a metal indicater to the left(when facing the front of the motor) and later, the marks were part of the timing cover to the right. I believe that when they went to the marks on the timing cover, they used the damper, with sepatate crank pulley. Earlier, when the metal indicator was used they just used the crank pulley alone. If either the crank pulley/damper or the timing cover was replaced with the newer one, it would make a 2-3 inch difference.

Edited by plypete 2006-02-20 10:32 PM

Bugman

Posted 2006-02-21 12:20 AM (#50762 - in reply to #50749)
Subject: RE: Timing Marks do not Line Up. Why?

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Location: Evansville, WI

it's also possible, depending on how tha damper is made, for the rubber bonding to degrade causing the balancer ring to spin on the hub causing the marks to be off.

Rob

Posted 2006-02-21 9:41 PM (#50819 - in reply to #50749)
Subject: RE: Timing Marks do not Line Up. Why?

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1) To Senix: Yes, I undid the vacuum line before timing the engine. The engine ran fine before I timed it. It ran fine with the timing line two inches below the point where it's supposed to be. When I turned the distributor and moved the line up, it backfired thru the carb. I moved the dist back where it was and all's OK with the running of the engine BUT the timing marks don't line up. The vacuum advance is good. What do you mean by intermediate shaft?

2) To Plypete: I know what you mean; I also have a '63 Poly 318 with the damper arrangement. As far as I can tell, this engine has the original cover and crank pulley; It's just like my '58 Plymouth's 318 and that car's timing marks line up. My timing light works on all the other cars and their timing marks line up.

3) To Bugman: You're describing the '63's damper arrangement. Yes, the rubber thing can go bad and cause the damper to 'spin'. That's not the case here - this car has no damper, just the pulley and timing cover as Plypete describes. I'm in Florida - no snow here. Come on down, plenty of room and good weather.

Thank you to all of you for your responses.

Prehaps I should remove the lower pulley and crank pulley and inspect them? Perhaps I should take a picture to show you all what arrangement I have?

300C

Posted 2006-02-22 12:01 AM (#50831 - in reply to #50819)
Subject: RE: Timing Marks do not Line Up. Why?

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Location: Baltimore, Maryland

The intermediate shaft runs off the camshaft. On the top is a gear that meshes with the gear on the cam shaft, it has a slot milled into it, into which the distributor shaft sits. The other end of the shaft runs down into the block and is what rotates the oil pump. Someone has more than likely removed the intermediate shaft and did not drop it back in its proper position. In this case, you can get the car to run properly 'by ear' but the timing marks will not be in the proper position.

You can either forget about it, or take the distributor out, and attempt to move the intermediate shaft one tooth to see if that puts the marks in the right spot. But like pete said the marks should line up no matter where anything else is.

You said you 'found' TDC, how did you go about doing this? It might be possible that the timing chain has enough slop in it to give you a goofy reading.

Edited by 300C 2006-02-22 12:16 AM

plypete

Posted 2006-02-21 10:01 PM (#50820 - in reply to #50749)
Subject: RE: Timing Marks do not Line Up. Why?

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Location: Centerville, SD

I just went out and looked at my 59 poly. Without tearing it apart, it looks to me like the crank pulley is two parts pressed together. One part has the timing marks and the pulley, the other has the keyed portion that slides onto the crank. I wonder if the two parts have slipped a little. Let us know what you find. The intermediate shaft is the shaft with the gear between the oil pump and the distributor which is driven by the cam. But , as you said earlier, at TDC, the timing mark should like up with O degrees on the pulley no matter where the distributor, cam, or anything else is.

Edited by plypete 2006-02-21 10:13 PM

MOPAR-TO-YA

Posted 2006-02-22 12:29 AM (#50832 - in reply to #50749)
Subject: RE: Timing Marks do not Line Up. Why?

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Just to be sure---does your timing light have an advance adjustment knob on it and is it set at 0 degree?.......................5%.........

plypete

Posted 2006-02-22 8:34 AM (#50846 - in reply to #50749)
Subject: RE: Timing Marks do not Line Up. Why?

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Location: Centerville, SD

I see what you guys are saying about the shaft, but even if this was in the wrong place, you should stillbe able to time it with the marks unless the distributer is twisted so fer out of whack it runs into something before you get it. Even though, at TDC the mark should be very close to the 0 mark. It is afterall directly connected to the crank.

Rob

Posted 2006-02-22 8:34 PM (#50876 - in reply to #50749)
Subject: RE: Timing Marks do not Line Up. Why?

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I kinda 'guessed' at TDC by sticking a screwdriver into the #1 spark plug hole and feeling the piston come up as the rotor passed the #1 spot. I turned the engine over several times to get a good 'feel' of the top of the piston's travel.

The engine's fairly original and seems to have never been apart. I kinda doubt anyone's messed with the intermediate shaft, but it's certainly a possibility.

I'm kinda with Plypete in that the crank pulley may have slipped some. The only thing to do is pull it off and see.

The engine has 65,000 miles. Should there be looseness in the timing chain? How would I check for 'slop' in the timing chain?

There's no advance adjustment on this timing light. Didn't know of such a thing.

MOPAR-TO-YA

Posted 2006-02-23 12:12 AM (#50886 - in reply to #50876)
Subject: RE: Timing Marks do not Line Up. Why?

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Location: cornpatch county, Southwest IOA

Rob, when you bring the #1 piston to the top of its stroke, and the rotor is pointing to the #1 plug wire, are you sure you are on the compression stroke?........................................5%................

RoyalGate

Posted 2006-02-23 11:53 PM (#50938 - in reply to #50876)
Subject: RE: Timing Marks do not Line Up. Why?

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Location: Ballwin, Missouri

Rob - 2006-02-22 7:34 PM

I kinda 'guessed' at TDC by sticking a screwdriver into the #1 spark plug hole and feeling the piston come up as the rotor passed the #1 spot. I turned the engine over several times to get a good 'feel' of the top of the piston's travel.

Rob,

Your "screwdriver" method of finding Top Dead Center is about as accurate as throwing mud at a hole
in the wall. Your going to be "ALL OVER THE PLACE" !! Without taking the engine apart, the only
accurate way to find Top Dead Center" is with a piston stop. You can get one of these at any local
parts store and they aren't very expensive at all. It will screw into your #1 park plug hole and stop
the piston at the same place each time, ( below top dead center ). It doesn't matter where as long as
it is at the same place each time.

Take all of the spark plugs out, install the piston stop and "SLOWLY" turn the engine over, clockwise,
looking at the front of the engine ( normal engine direction ) until the piston hits the stop Use the "0" mark
on the timing tab and mark the crankshaft damper.

Turn the engine over counterclockwise, "SLOWLY" until the piston goes all the way down and back up
and hits the stop again. Again, using the "0" mark on the timing tab mark your crankshaft damper. You should
now have two marks in the crank damper some distance apart from each other. And hopefully the factory
mark is somewhere inbetween your marks.

Now, use a tape measure and find the middle of your two marks. ( example: If the marks are two inches
apart the middle would be one inch from each mark or centered. "THAT IS EXACT TOP DEAD CENTER"
IF YOUR FACTORY MARK ISN'T IN THE SAME PLACE IT HAS TURNED ON THE HUB AS SOMEONE ABOVE SAID
and you will have to have your damper replaced or rebuilt. There is several degrees of crankshaft movement
when the piston is at Top Dead Center as the crank goes over center under the piston and the piston doesn't move.
That's why your screw driver method is so inaccurate for finding exact top dead center.

If your mark has moved on the hub, I wouldn't drive the car until you get it fixed. It may last forever
or it could come apart the next time you start the engine. And the damage one of those things can do to a
radiator or hood or fender is terrible. Those timing marks on the crankshaft can and do move with age. I've also
seen engine with over a hundred thousand miles and the mark be exactly where it should be. But it does need to
be checked and corrected if needed.
Hope this helps and doesn't add to the confusion.
Good Luck

Edited by RoyalGate 2006-02-23 11:54 PM

300C

Posted 2006-02-23 12:33 AM (#50888 - in reply to #50749)
Subject: RE: Timing Marks do not Line Up. Why?

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Location: Baltimore, Maryland

Easiest way to check slop is to take the dist cap off while you turn the engine over. Turn the engine clockwise with a wrench, mark the damper, then reverse the ratchet and turn the crank (slowly) in the opposite direction. Watch for the rotor to move in the other direction. You will then get an idea of how many degrees it could be off due to timing chain wear.

The reason I point this out is that to find your TDC by your method, you can only turn the engine over in one direction, if you back off in the other direction, your mark will be wrong.

pierpaolo

Posted 2006-02-23 7:56 AM (#50899 - in reply to #50749)
Subject: RE: Timing Marks do not Line Up. Why?

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Rob, if the pulley is mounted on the crankshaft then pulley and pistons are solidly connected by the crankshaft, so no matter how much slack there is in the timing chain or if somebody has been messing about with the distributor, the 0 timing mark and the top dead center of cylinder No 1 must correspond, both at compression and exhaust strokes. So something must be wrong in the pulley or in the pointer.

If you set the timing with a timing light, again, no matter what has been done to the dist shaft or how much slack there is, the spark will occur at the timing you have set. The only thing that will be affected is the position of the distributor in respect of the block, so you may find that the vacuum canister is rotated clockwise or anticlockwise compared to the correct orientation. Slack in the chain could cause errating timing but the "basic" timing will remain what you set with the light.

To check for slop in the chain, on my 55 chrysler block you can remove the fuel pump and stick a finger inside the opening (I mean in the timing cover :) ) to feel how loose the chain is, don't know if a 61 Ply engine has the same arrangment.

Hope this helps, Pierpaolo

Edited by pierpaolo 2006-02-23 8:06 AM

Rob

Posted 2006-02-24 8:44 PM (#50973 - in reply to #50749)
Subject: RE: Timing Marks do not Line Up. Why?

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RoyalGate's piston stop method makes sense and I'll get a piston stop tomorrow. We'll see what that shows.

I'll check for looseness in the timing chain, as Pierpalo and 300C describe.

300C

Posted 2006-02-24 11:24 PM (#50981 - in reply to #50749)
Subject: RE: Timing Marks do not Line Up. Why?

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Location: Baltimore, Maryland

Pierpalo is right about the timing marks still not being correct, even if the timing chain is worn out.

Hard to think these things out on the fly while sitting in front of the 'puter.....

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