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Do you recognize this one?
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   Forward Look NON-Technical Discussions -> 1955-1961 Forward Look MoPar General DiscussionMessage format
 
T&C59
Posted 2006-03-12 6:36 AM (#51861)
Subject: Do you recognize this one?


Member

Posts: 21

Location: Finland
Well, I do know what is this car, but you American friends, do you?
And Canadien or European folks, shh!



(mopar.jpg)



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roadkillontheweb
Posted 2006-03-12 10:31 AM (#51867 - in reply to #51861)
Subject: RE: Do you recognize this one?



Expert

Posts: 1356
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Location: Iowa USA
Yes!
It is a Plodge.
I prefer the PlySoto's myself!


Edited by roadkillontheweb 2006-03-12 10:46 AM




(Hog 1.JPG)



(58dip2.jpg)



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roadkillontheweb
Posted 2006-03-12 10:40 AM (#51868 - in reply to #51861)
Subject: Re: Do you recognize this one?



Expert

Posts: 1356
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Location: Iowa USA
and the even rarer!
DoSoto's (1960-64)


Edited by roadkillontheweb 2006-03-12 10:45 AM




(Aiden's '60.JPG)



(soto60_2.gif)



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T&C59
Posted 2006-03-13 5:04 AM (#51953 - in reply to #51861)
Subject: RE: Do you recognize this one?


Member

Posts: 21

Location: Finland
Yes, it is a -58 Dodge Kingsway, which is export only model. They were made from early fifties til -59, as far as I know. It is Plymouth with Dodge front, engines also came from Plymouth. Car pictured above is my friends, and was originally ordered to a factory director as luxury company car. Original color was yellow and black and it was powered by flathead six with three on the tree. A real luxury car or what?
The other export only model was DeSoto Diplomat, which also used Plymouth body and drivetrain, but front was from cheapest DeSoto model, Firesweep. They made these til -59 too.
-60 and later DeSoto Diplomat is completely same car as Dodge Seneca/Pioneer, only renamed.
This is what I have found out of these export models, if someone knows better, please correct my writings.
Here is picture of -60 DeS Diplomat wagon.

Edited by T&C59 2006-03-13 5:07 AM




(DeS.jpg)



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57burb
Posted 2006-03-13 11:14 AM (#51969 - in reply to #51861)
Subject: RE: Do you recognize this one?



Expert

Posts: 3576
20001000500252525
Location: DFW, TX
They're out there.



(plodge.jpg)



(plodge2.jpg)



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diplomat60
Posted 2006-03-29 6:52 AM (#53005 - in reply to #51861)
Subject: RE: Do you recognize this one?


25
Location: Australia
has anybody seen another 60 diplomat custom 4 door hardtop

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MorePar
Posted 2006-03-29 7:33 PM (#53050 - in reply to #51868)
Subject: Re: Do you recognize this one?



50010010010025
Location: Colorado, Pike's Peak

OK, I want that red two tone DodSoto!

 

Slim 

 

 

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50scars
Posted 2006-03-29 9:46 PM (#53060 - in reply to #51969)
Subject: RE: Do you recognize this one?


Elite Veteran

Posts: 663
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Location: Oakley, Ill
I am almost of the opinion that this is better looking than the American 59 Dodge. My Appologies to 59 Dodge Owners.
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5859
Posted 2006-03-29 10:13 PM (#53064 - in reply to #51861)
Subject: RE: Do you recognize this one?


Expert

Posts: 2933
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Location: Lemoore CA
As a 59 Dodge owner, I don't agree that it is better looking, but I will admit that it is just as good in its own way. Really wouldn't be too hard to build your own either.
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imopar380
Posted 2006-03-29 10:53 PM (#53067 - in reply to #53064)
Subject: RE: Do you recognize this one?



Expert 5K+

Posts: 6868
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Location: Victoria, BC, on Vancouver Island, Canada
That turquoise 59 Dodge on the 58 Plymouth body seems to me to be wrong. I have seen export 59 Dodges and they are always on a 59 Plymouth body - perhaps someone built this one to confuse us all !!

Ian
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roadkillontheweb
Posted 2006-03-29 11:00 PM (#53069 - in reply to #53067)
Subject: RE: Do you recognize this one?



Expert

Posts: 1356
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Location: Iowa USA
1959 Plodge original brochure showing that they did indeed make them with 59 Plymouth body and 59 Dodge front clip.

Same as the 1956 version! brochure for it below.


Edited by roadkillontheweb 2006-03-29 11:05 PM




(59PLODGE.JPG)



(PMAYFAIR.JPG)



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roadkillontheweb
Posted 2006-03-29 11:06 PM (#53070 - in reply to #53069)
Subject: RE: Do you recognize this one?



Expert

Posts: 1356
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Location: Iowa USA
And the real ones look like this!
Gotta love the right hand drive? unlike my RHD Aussie UTEs this one is a right hand shift (automatic), Mine are left hand shift (3 on a tree).


Edited by roadkillontheweb 2006-03-29 11:15 PM




(59dodge2.jpg)



(rhd59diplomat.jpg)



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5859
Posted 2006-03-30 2:03 AM (#53081 - in reply to #51861)
Subject: RE: Do you recognize this one?


Expert

Posts: 2933
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Location: Lemoore CA
It is just my opinion, but it seems to me that the plodges that most likely were not built by the factory, but built as fakes, or customs are the best looking ones. That 58 plym body and the 59 front clip seem to go together really nicely, Have you guys ever seen pictures of Paul Garliks 61 Plodge fake, that he claimes is real? even if it is a fake it is a beautiful car. I am just saying that to me the factory built plodges and plysotos don't seem to have lines that flow nicely between the front clip and the body. Another question, why did Chrysler build plodges in the first place? was it really that much cheaper to use the plymouth body with various front clips? It seems like even if the cars were built in other countrys, it would have been cheaper to build the same cars across the board.
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roadkillontheweb
Posted 2006-04-01 9:32 PM (#53272 - in reply to #53081)
Subject: RE: Do you recognize this one?



Expert

Posts: 1356
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Location: Iowa USA
I thought i had another image lying around!
here is a real 59 Dodge Kingsway 2 door hardtop with right hand drive!




(59kingsway.jpg)



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50scars
Posted 2006-04-01 10:07 PM (#53275 - in reply to #51861)
Subject: RE: Do you recognize this one?


Elite Veteran

Posts: 663
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Location: Oakley, Ill
It was probably a whole lot cheaper to make everything from the Plymouth, then build badge engineered fenders and hood that would fit the cowl. Remember the US DeSoto Firesweep was the small body, with the DeSoto looking quarters. Other than in the US, and areas of Canada fairly close to the border, the people never saw the Dodges, DeSotos, and Chryslers built in the US. As far as they knew, that was how things were. Actually, they don't look bad at all. Look at the styling of what the rest of the world sold. We hassle them a little because we compare them to what was sold in the US, but if that was what we saw, would be be so hard on them now? I thnk not. There are plenty of Aussies on this site working on what they have, and loving them, just like we love our US built cars.
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58 Ray
Posted 2006-04-01 11:01 PM (#53280 - in reply to #51861)
Subject: RE: Do you recognize this one?



500100100100100
Location: Colorado

Shoot, that first one looked just like mine:

 



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imopar380
Posted 2006-04-02 11:22 PM (#53342 - in reply to #53275)
Subject: RE: Do you recognize this one?



Expert 5K+

Posts: 6868
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Location: Victoria, BC, on Vancouver Island, Canada
50scars - 2006-04-01 7:07 PM

It was probably a whole lot cheaper to make everything from the Plymouth, then build badge engineered fenders and hood that would fit the cowl. Remember the US DeSoto Firesweep was the small body, with the DeSoto looking quarters. Other than in the US, and areas of Canada fairly close to the border, the people never saw the Dodges, DeSotos, and Chryslers built in the US. As far as they knew, that was how things were. Actually, they don't look bad at all. Look at the styling of what the rest of the world sold. We hassle them a little because we compare them to what was sold in the US, but if that was what we saw, would be be so hard on them now? I thnk not. There are plenty of Aussies on this site working on what they have, and loving them, just like we love our US built cars.



As a note to Canadians not seeing the US models unless we lived close to the US border, the top-end models of the US Styled Dodges were actually sold in Canada along side the Plodges. In 46-48, you could buya D-24 here and in the early fifties you could buy a Coronet with a Hemi, and then from 55 and later we were offered Custom Royals. Looking at a Dodge Mayfair alongside a Custom Royal, it reminded me somewhat of comparing a Buick LeSabre alongside an Electra 225 - I just assmumed that they were the most expensive model and used different rear quarters etc. like the Buicks. You were right in assuming that for the most part, we just assumed that is the way they all were everywhere, and it was not until 1974 that I learned that US production mid fifties Dodges all looked like what I called Custom Royals, and there were no Plymouth based Dodges sold there. Our DeSotos and Chryslers were virtually identical to the US versions, mostly with diffeences in upholstery and fewer models being available- we did not get the short wheelbased 58 DeSotos and Chryslers with the Dodge front fenders and hood. Below is a photo of the long wheelbase 1958 Canadian Windsor.



Edited by imopar380 2006-04-02 11:29 PM




(58CHRY.JPG)



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Imp58Alpes
Posted 2006-04-06 4:43 AM (#53630 - in reply to #51861)
Subject: RE: Do you recognize this one?



Extreme Veteran

Posts: 542
50025
Location: Grenoble - France
I know that this rebadging made by the Chrysler Corporation is quite confusing. For instance, what was the benefit of exporting both Dodge Kingsway and DeSoto Diplomat? You could say that it could depend on the country. Well, I'm not sure, as in France for instance both Kingsway and Diplomat were imported. Also, I've seen on eBay a 59 Canadian Dodge, called Dodge Regent, which was a Kingsway, but with the Canadian engine (a rebored one, don't remember the displacement).

Also, to make it even more confusing, standard US models of DeSotos and Dodges were also exported. You could order a Fireflite or a Royal in France. And if you were rich enough, you could buy a Chrysler or an Imperial (this last one was around 5,400,000 French francs, when a Citroën 2CV was around 350,000). Of course, you could also buy a Plymouth, if you didn't like the Diplomat. Confusing, isn't it ?
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spinout
Posted 2006-04-06 1:38 PM (#53651 - in reply to #53275)
Subject: RE: Do you recognize this one?



50010010010025
Location: Bjorneborg, Finland
50scars - 2006-04-02 7:07 AM
It was probably a whole lot cheaper to make everything from the Plymouth, then build badge engineered fenders and hood that would fit the cowl. Other than in the US, and areas of Canada fairly close to the border, the people never saw the Dodges, DeSotos, and Chryslers built in the US. As far as they knew, that was how things were.


This is NOT true that people never saw U.S. models whereat Diplomats and Kingsways were exported. Where did you find that? Dealers which sold these export models offered also U.S. models, although body style offering were not as wide as in the USA. For example, 1957 DeSoto's Firesweep and Fireflite were available, in principle, in every body style for export market, but you could order '57 Firedome only as a 4-dr. sedan. Adventurer wasn't available for export market. Another example is, that all other models of '58 US model Dodge were widely available, except Royal. They limited Royal model for only 4-dr. sedan. It's still different thing what they actually sold in foreign countries. It depended on country.

In Finland, they primarily imported 4-dr sedans regarding U.S. models. In one time, Finland was only country in the world where they sold more Chrysler products than GM products! Chrysler dealers sold also Plymouths. The benefit for Diplomat and Kingsway was simply to offer Plymouth's lower price class cars for Dodge and DeSoto dealers and for known reasons most US models were relatively too expensive cars for average people.. The higher price made Fireflite as a luxury car while in the same time it was in the upper middle-price class in the US..

Edited by spinout 2006-04-06 2:17 PM
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roadkillontheweb
Posted 2006-04-06 7:23 PM (#53668 - in reply to #53651)
Subject: RE: Do you recognize this one?



Expert

Posts: 1356
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Location: Iowa USA
I have spent a bit of time researching export model differences and I can tell you that it makes no sense at all!

Since my car was built in Australia I tend to have a little more information on cars from down under. and I am a Desoto freak so I am heavy with Desoto information!

I had been told that they used the smaller Plymouth body for the Desoto Diplomat series in the post war years so that they did not have to make right hand drive frames, cowls and dashes and that made sense, But I have since found that to be incorrect! and Diplomats were available in right hand and left hand versions depending on the intended market.

I have seen both right hand drive 46-48 SP15 Desoto Diplomats and right hand drive S-11 Desoto's in Australia ( there is a pair of them for sale now on Ebay.au). were they both brought over when new or did one come in later? I just don't know? Then I saw a right hand drive Full size 1954 Desoto Firedome in OZ when they had the plymouth based Diplomat available!

then in 1957-59 OZ even imported a small number of right hand drive Desoto Firesweeps! and if you had the cah you could get about anything you wanted!

It appears that in 1960 they changed fom Plymouth based models to Dodge based in al markets? but I am not going to say that is fact!

Chrysler corporation seemed to be very flexible in all markets and even made available 6 cylinder powered 1957 Desoto Firesweeps for taxi service. If you though the last 6 cylinder powered American production car was in 1954 with the Powermaster that is wrong!

Of course 6 cylinder Desoto car production continued through 1964 in Africa with the Dodge lancer based diplomat in 1962 and Desoto Rebel 63-64

They made a 4 cylinder perkins diesel powered Desoto Diplomat
I can be pretty sure that no matter how much I learn about the export market I will still not know it all!I recently purchaed some 1933 era dealer export magazines and it was even very different back then and

PS in 1959 the Desoto Diplomat series even offered an Adventurer series! and the Adventurer series was exported in 1956 and 57 and some even had a Kilometer speedometers!

CONFUSING AINT IT???



(MED0038.JPG)



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spinout
Posted 2006-04-07 5:14 PM (#53734 - in reply to #53668)
Subject: RE: Do you recognize this one?



50010010010025
Location: Bjorneborg, Finland
roadkillontheweb - 2006-04-07 4:23 AM
Chrysler corporation seemed to be very flexible in all markets and even made available 6 cylinder powered 1957 Desoto Firesweeps for taxi service.
Of course 6 cylinder Desoto car production continued through 1964 in Africa with the Dodge lancer based diplomat in 1962 and Desoto Rebel 63-64


I think South African 1962 DeSoto Diplomat was based on Dodge Dart 330/440 and DeSoto Rebel was based on Dodge Lancer.. right?
Now I remember, that I have read something about 6-cyl. '57 Firesweep..

Perkins P4C diesel powered DeSoto Diplomats and Dodge Kingsways were available also in Finland for taxi service. These engines or whole cars were assembled in Chrysler's Belgian factory. It was el cheapo way to go and slow..

If you include also trucks to your learnings, more confusing you go! DeSoto trucks have been built in Detroit for export market. KEW factory in Surrey, England made DeSoto, Dodge and Fargo trucks. All same looking, only re-badged to another make..and DeSoto trucks are still in production in Turkey... I'm not familiar about down-under things.

I have a '59 DeSoto Diplomat sales catalog. Yes, it shows a Diplomat-Adventurer. Standard engine was 318, while optional engine was 361 Golden Commando. Don Butler said they made only 14 2-dr Hardtops and 8 Convertibles.

It's new to me that Adventurer series was exported in 1956 and 57. It's better me not to say anything like a fact what comes to these Export stuff. Somebody will come and disprove these "facts", always...

Have you seen a magazine called Chrysler Export News from the '50s? I have not. Once I found 20 copies of Courier magazines from 1961-63. Published by Chrysler International S.A., Geneva, Switzerland. Quite interesting literature.


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roadkillontheweb
Posted 2006-04-07 8:53 PM (#53755 - in reply to #53734)
Subject: RE: Do you recognize this one?



Expert

Posts: 1356
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Location: Iowa USA
Here is the 1962 Desoto Diplomat literature that I have in my collection!

I am still trying to find a 63-64 Desoto Rebel piece but no luck yet!

It is the Finnish taxi brochure that I have in my collection that features the Perkins diesel

I have a fair amount of Desoto truck literature ranging from the 40s through the 70s and even have some from the Turkish facility like this one from 1971!

Obviously this is not a style leader and has no similarity to the American production trucks. It actually looks like the body was made in a high school shop class!. The ones they are making today would make a nice grocery getter and are styled much like a Hummer H2.

Australian production also offered Dodge, Desoto and Fargo version that difered only by the trim like they did in england they had the KEW engines made in England but did not have the KEW body style. When you add in the Australian Utilities it makes it that much more confusing! They had truck based versions that were unibodied versions that were only available in that market along with Cab and Box design like the American market was provided. also the bodies always seemed to be a mixture of earlier American production versions.

the above is a 1956 Deluxe cab truck UTE but they also offered a standard cab version that was still unibodied but did not have the rear quarter windows!

Then you add in the Car based UTEs (I have a 56 Desoto and a 56 Plymouth but they also made a Dodge ) and they were based on the 1954 American production Plymouth/Dodge 4 door sedan but had custom rear bodies that were pickup beds like the Ranchero/Elcamino made ere in the states.

I took a lot of pride years ago in my knowledge of the Desoto Marquee but since the internet has made this world so much smaller I have realized that I had blinders on! I have a lot to learn yet!

Yes they made Chrysler Export news in the 50s I have about 12 issues from te early to mid 50s! teh 1933 era magazine were called Chrysler Graphic!
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spinout
Posted 2006-04-08 5:26 AM (#53779 - in reply to #53755)
Subject: RE: Do you recognize this one?



50010010010025
Location: Bjorneborg, Finland
So, S. African '62 DeSoto Diplomat was based on Dodge Dart 330/440 as I supposed.

Do you have scans of that Finnish taxi brochure? It would be interesting to see that also. Finnish DeSoto article from 1958 said fuel consumption for Perkins P4C diesel engine was 7 - 8 liters per 100 kilometers and that converts about 33.6 to 29.4 miles per gallon. Top speed was only 75 mph. In that time, there were 300 Perkins diesel powered Chrysler Corp. taxis or Chevrolet taxis in Brüssels, Belgium.



I enclose picture of Turkish modern DeSoto trucks. The bigger one is good looking. I received them few years ago. Turkish plant is now an independent company, no longer owned by Chrysler Corp. or Daimler-Chrysler as it should be said nowadays.



Do you know when the production of DeSoto discontinued in Detroit, Michigan?? I have seen a '64-65 DeSoto D-100 Van, made in USA. I enclose picture of the strongest American-made DeSoto dump truck I have discovered in Finland:




Edited by spinout 2006-04-08 5:38 AM
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roadkillontheweb
Posted 2006-04-08 8:45 AM (#53783 - in reply to #53779)
Subject: RE: Do you recognize this one?



Expert

Posts: 1356
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Location: Iowa USA

Here is the front of the Diesel brochure!

And the rear!

Here is the current model Turkish Desoto truck that would love to have!
Load in the kids soccer team and go!
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spinout
Posted 2006-04-09 6:34 AM (#53827 - in reply to #51861)
Subject: RE: Do you recognize this one?



50010010010025
Location: Bjorneborg, Finland

Thanks for scan of the '56 Diesel brochure. However, it is not Finnish as you thought. It's French and printed in Antwerp, Belgium.



Edited by spinout 2006-04-09 6:42 AM




(60copcar.jpg)



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Chrycoman
Posted 2006-04-09 7:11 AM (#53829 - in reply to #53827)
Subject: RE: Do you recognize this one?



Expert

Posts: 1760
10005001001002525
Location: Vancouver, BC
Although the Diplomat and Kingsway names were adopted after World War II, the Plymouth-based export models were first produced in the 1930's.

The first DeSoto export six based on the Plymouth rolled off the Lynch Road assembly line in Detroit during the 1937 model year. The first one built at Windsor, Ontario, rolled off the line in 1939. The DeSoto truck was built starting 1939 in Detroit and 1956 in Canada.

Although Chrysler Canada built the first Canadian-market Plymouth-based Dodge in 1934, Detroit started building them for export in 1935. Other Dodge models built for export were the DE Six of 1930, DI SIx in 1931, and the DM Four in 1932. The DM four was actually the first Plymouth with a Dodge grille. And none of these early models were built in Canada.

The other missing D letters, DF and DJ, were taxi models in 1930 and 1931, respectively.

Chrysler of Canada's DQ of 1933 was not based on the Plymouth but on the DP six with a lower grade interior and trimmings. And when the DP went to a 115" wheelbase, the DQ stayed with the 111.25" wheelbase.

Fargo trucks appeared in the summer of 1928 for the 1929 model year, shortly after Plymouth and DeSoto. That line of Fargo trucks was built in the U.S. and Canada and was dropped late in 1930. The Fargo name was used by Chrysler for vehicles sold to the American armed forces, and in 1933 began building Fargo trucks for export in Detroit. Chrysler of Canada added the Fargo line in 1936 for its Plymouth-Chrysler dealers and imported the larger Dodge and Fargo truck models from Detroit.

The last Fargo truck sold in Canada was in 1972. Chrysler kept the DeSoto and Fargo names for export trucks through to 1987 (check the sticker on the door jamb of 1970's Dodge trucks). In 1988 the "E" used by Fargo in the VIN was adopted by the new Eagle.

And that marked the end of DeSoto and Fargo vehicles, at least as far as Detroit was concerned.

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roadkillontheweb
Posted 2006-04-09 8:56 AM (#53830 - in reply to #53829)
Subject: RE: Do you recognize this one?



Expert

Posts: 1356
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Location: Iowa USA
I have a NOS 1970s vintage vin tag for a truck and it indeed does list both Desoto and fargo along with Dodge!

Somewhere in my collection I have the 1965 A-100 Fargo brochure but I have yet to find the Desoto version.

I am gathering information and images in hopes to someday have the time to add a Desoto truck and Diplomat/export page to my website. I have gatered a few Fargo pieces but I am trying to stay focused on Desoto
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diplomat60
Posted 2006-04-13 4:55 AM (#54064 - in reply to #51861)
Subject: RE: Do you recognize this one?


25
Location: Australia
Attaching files didn't work for me last time

my 1960 Desoto Diplomat Custom RHD

Edited by diplomat60 2006-04-13 5:12 AM




(haywood3.JPG)



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roadkillontheweb
Posted 2006-04-13 8:19 AM (#54068 - in reply to #54064)
Subject: RE: Do you recognize this one?



Expert

Posts: 1356
10001001001002525
Location: Iowa USA
Can I get some more shots of your car?
The dash.
front and rear quarter views?
Thanks
Lee
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Ray Bell
Posted 2006-04-14 2:03 AM (#54111 - in reply to #51861)
Subject: Re: Do you recognize this one?



Expert

Posts: 2398
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Location: Dalveen, Queensland, Australia
In addition to the rounded cabin rears, we had:

http://i2.tinypic.com/vfcf7q.jpg

Edited by Ray Bell 2006-04-14 2:04 AM
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