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 Why did Chrysler drop the plymouth Name?Jump to page : 1 Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
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58Donnie |
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Account Suspended Posts: 2827     Location: At "The Rock" in upper East Tennessee | Why did Chrysler drop the plymouth Name? And do any of you think there is a possability of a comeback? This may be an old question but I just don't know. | ||
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| ilikedodge |
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Elite Veteran Posts: 750 Location: kansas city, mo. | here is a little info i found. http://www.joesherlock.com/39Ply4.html if not that one, try this one. http://www.allpar.com/ed/plymouth/plyrip.html Edited by ilikedodge 2006-03-22 8:04 PM | ||
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| 58Donnie |
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Account Suspended Posts: 2827 Location: At "The Rock" in upper East Tennessee | Thanks, You know Dodge is re-releasing the Challenger in '09 would it not be nice to see a new 'cuda? I bet it wouls sell as many as they could build. | ||
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| 58Donnie |
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Account Suspended Posts: 2827 Location: At "The Rock" in upper East Tennessee | http://www.dodge.com/dodge_life/news/autoshow_news/challenger.html?... | ||
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| 50scars |
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Elite Veteran Posts: 663 Location: Oakley, Ill | I think the idea that Plymouth was stabbed in the back starting with WPC's deal is correct. I suspect that DeSoto's demise was a fact even earlier than that. Supposedly there was a joke about a line worker wanting to know whether the cars coming down that line were DeSotos or Chrysler Windsors, and the answer was "which do you have more name plates for?" When the cost of labor to build a car started to exceed the cost of materials used, the squeeze was on, first for DeSoto, by the Chrysler Windsor from above, and Dodge Custom Royal from below, and later Plymouth from Dodge. I think in the 60s, when all the dealers wanted, and got, a model of all the sizes, is when the need for many brands went away. Why load up a Plymouth when you could have a Dodge for the same money, or possibly a buck or 2 less, depending upon the relative hunger of the respective dealers. By the time the 90's ended, you had to get close enough to read the name, frequently monochromatic, to discover if this was an economy buyer, (Plymouth), middle line buyer (Dodge), or big bucks (Chrysler). Back in the 60s, at least there were 2 size cars--the Plymouth/Dodge, and the Chrysler. They hadn't got around to sullying the Chrysler name like they did by putting a vynal roof on a Volarie and calling it 5th avenue. I think failure to keep a brand difference was a serious mistake. You end up competing against yourself, and having a Plymouth, Dodge, and Chrysler parts bin for each body just costs you more, without getting any extra sales. Another joke--I can't for the life of me remember what the Dodge was, but the question was "what is the difference between the Dodge and the Chrysler?" The answer was "About $2,000". | ||
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| Chrycoman |
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Expert Posts: 1819  Location: Vancouver, BC | One reason - it was not selling. Given the fact Plymouth had no great variety of cars to offer the public, it is not surprising it was not selling. Although many blame Stuttgart, the rot actually started back in the late 1950's when Chrysler decided to let Dodge market a car in the low-price class, called the Dart. When the Dart was introduced in 1960, virtually all Plymouth-Dodge dealers dropped the Plymouth and became Dodge dealers. Things changed under Townsend, who became president in 1961. He wanted Dodge positioned between Plymouth and Chrysler, and refused to let Dodge market version of the A body Barracuda. Instead he encouraged Dodge to bring the Charger to market. He also forced Dodge to increase the size of it compact Dart in 1963, positioning it above the Valiant. Similarly, he had Dodge increase the size of its B body models for 1963 and move the various models upmarket. In 1962 the top of the line Dart 440 was priced against the Fury. When the all-new C-body Dodges came out for 1965, the bottom line Polara was priced against the Fury III. At the other end, Chrysler was moved upmarket, with the Newport dropping the 361 and replacing it with the 383. Interior trim also moved upmarket, moving the Chrysler car above the Dodge line. In 1968 Plymouth put its mark on the muscle car market with the introduction of the Road Runner. That oushed Plymouth to the top in its sale bracket and brought about imitators from Ford, Mercury, Pontiac and Dodge. Dodge spent alot of money restyling its Dart, Coronet, Charger and Polara/Monaco lines for 1970. Plymouth was given the same amount of money, but did not change the Belvedere and Fury to the extent Dodge changed their versions of the B and C bodies. The Valiant got a new grille and taillights, and that left Plymouth with a few million left over. What to do? Plymouth brought out the Duster, a 2-door coupe on the Valiant platform. It sold like no Valiant before and put a serious dent in the sales of the new Maverick. By 1971 Plymouth was in third spot and in 1973 saw production hit a record 943,921 cars built in the U.S. and Canada. Plymouth was poised to become the 3rd auto maker to pass the 1,000,00 mark. But Plymouth would be lucky if if built half that figure in the future. Townsend moved up to Chairman from President, and the heat was off Dodge and Chrysler. Dodge pressured for, and got, a version of the Duster which Dodge called Demon. In return, Plymouth got the Scamp, based on the Dart Swinger. As well, Dodge began moving its Polara/Monaco models down in price. Whereas the 1970 Polara was still priced against the Fury III, in mid-1970 Dodge introduced the Polara Special, priced against the Fury II and available with a slant six engine in the sedan. For 1971 the Polara line up changed from Special, base, Custom, to base, Custom and Brougham. For 1972 the Monaco moved down a notch to ease out the Polara Brougham. By 1975 the C body Dodge Monaco / Royal Monaco was priced against the Gran Fury models. And Chrysler began to move down from above with the introduction of the 1971 Newport Royal, complete with 360 V8. When Chrysler was restyling the B body cars for 1975, it was decided to separate the sporty/luxury Charger and Sebing models from the more plebian family sedan versions. But someone got the idea it would be nice if Chrysler had a luxury coupe. Thus the Charger got the Sebring grille and the former Sebring was luxoed up to become the Cordoba. Plymouth no longer had a car to go against the Monte Carlo. In mid-1977 the luxury compact Diplomat and LeBaron models were introduced but no Plymouth version. This left Plymouth with no car to market against the Granada and the top line Nova. Chrysler Canada introduced the Caravelle for 1978, elmiinating that problem in Canada. When the new down-sized full-size cars were introduced for 1979, one year behind schedule by the way, there was no Plymouth version. American Plymouth dealers were livid they had nothing bigger than the Volare. Yes, the Newport was priced against the Impala now, but that was just bleeding the Chrysler name. For 1980 the Gran Fury appeared, in standard and stripped versions. The new Cordoba and Mirada came out for 1980, but nothing for Plymouth. For 1982 the LeBaron was downsized to the K body and Dodge introduced the 400. Nothing for Plymouth. In 1983 came the E body, for the New Yorker, E Class and 600. Nothing for American Plymouth dealers, but Canadian dealers got the 2-door K car and 4-door E car models under the Caravelle name. The Gran Fury carried on using the M body for 1982, although Chrysler Canada continued to market it as a Caravelle. When Dodge introduced the Daytona, Chrysler and not Plymouth got the Laser. Same when the LeBaron GTS and Lancer came out - nothing for Plymouth. For 1988 Chrysler introduced the C body New Yorker and Dynasty to replace the E and M body models. But no version for Plymouth. And this time Chrysler Canada did not either. Just as the Daytona was sold as a Chrysler in Canada, so was the Dynasty. But Chrysler management really put the boots to Plymouth for 1992, when the upper two series of the Acclaim were given to the LeBaron. In 1991 Plymouth built 113,434 Acclaims to Dodge's 97,696 Spirits and Chrysler's 43.907 LeBarons. Sales of the Acclaim actually had risen in 1991 while the Spirit fell. For 1992 the Acclaim plunged to 77,105 while the Spirit dropped to 78,740 and the LeBaron rose to 44,437. Talk about a major marketing error. When the Neon was first announced in 1994 it was shown only as a Dodge. After some extremely fast foot work, a Plymouth version was quickly announced to quell the anger from Plymouth dealers and customers. The new Stratus and Cirrus models were announced in 1995, but again no Plymouth version. Again, Chrysler had to got into panic mode to get a Plymouth version on the market - quick. Thus the Breeze came out six months after the Stratus. But 1997 sales for Plymouth showed a downward spiral. Plymouth sold 78,186 Breeze sedans against 114,257 Stratus sedans. And the Neon brought in 100,247 sales for Plymouth and 146,779 for Dodge. Even the Voygager with 187,347 sales was being clobbered by the Caravan's 355,400 units sold. Total Plymouth sales in 1997, including the Voyager, came to 366,154. Compare that against Dodge's 803,794 and Chrysler's 291,275 and you can see why Chrysler decided to retire the Plymouth name. Personally I think this is the perfect time for bring the Plymouth back. Present management in Auburn Hills is pushing Chrysler back up to where it once was, and even Dodge is moving upscale. Perfect for Plymouth to be restored to its proper place in the Chrysler family. The 300, Charger and Magnum are all going after the performance and luxury market leaving the family sedan niche wide open. A perfect time to introduce a new Plymouth Fury sedan, with V6 and V8 engines. And perhaps even a Fury wagon. Same with the Caliber and Avenger. Bring back the Valiant and Satellite at lower prices than the Dodge versions. Given the sagging sales of Ford and Chevrolet, I cannot think of a better time. | ||
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| forwardlookparts |
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Expert Posts: 2721 Location: Minneapolis | In a nutshell? Favoritism played at the corporate level, much of it due to the brass giving in to the Dodge dealers' bitching and crying and kicking. When I was working at a Plymouth store in the nineties, must've been about '96, I asked a 23 year old kid who worked there a question. I asked, "Jim, what does 'Plymouth' mean to you?" He replied, "What?" I simplified the question by asking, "If you had to use just ONE word that would describe 'Plymouth', what would it be?" Without hesitation, he shot back, "Cheap!" It bummed me out, but it was true, that's the reputation the corporation let fall upon Plymouth. Thirty years before that, the answer would probably have been "Fast!" Thirty years before THAT, probably "Value!" Edited by forwardlookparts 2006-03-24 10:01 AM | ||
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| RoyalGate |
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Expert Posts: 2011 Location: Ballwin, Missouri | Chuck, If they brought the Plymouth name back the darn Germans would just screw it up. I like the look of the new Challenger but I'm afraid they are going to screw up the image everyone has of the original. It just kills me, what the Germans are doing to Chrysler Corp. | ||
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| Chrycoman |
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Expert Posts: 1819 Location: Vancouver, BC | RoyalGate - 2006-03-24 8:10 PM Chuck, If they brought the Plymouth name back the darn Germans would just screw it up. I like the look of the new Challenger but I'm afraid they are going to screw up the image everyone has of the original. It just kills me, what the Germans are doing to Chrysler Corp. What are the "Germans" doing to Chrysler? It is the only American auto maker selling more cars this year than before. Chrysler is the only American auto maker building concept vehicles that people are drooling over. Chrysler is the only American auto maker building cars whose designs are attracting admiring glances (and opening wallets). In Canada Chrysler is ahead of Ford in sales. And Chrysler is the only American auto maker that is making money. Taking everything into consideration, I suspect GM and Ford shareholders are wishing the "Germans" would "do" something to their companies, too! Everyone blames the "Germans" for building a 4-door Charger. Yet no one remembers that the production Charger, a 4-door sedan, was based on the American designed and built concept Charger, that was also a 4-door sedan. The present 4-door Charger was built because no one raised a stink about it when the concept was shown. They all waited until the 4-door Charger became a reality and blamed the "Germans" for the "fiasco". And last month more Chrysler 300 sedans were sold than the much vaunted Mustang. Which may have some effect on the future of the Challenger if Mustang's sales continue to soften. It may mean the retro pony car fad has run its course. And in case you haven't noticed, the ones that run the show in Auburn Hills are not German. Yes, the president at Auburn Hils is not an American but he is not German, either. | ||
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| forwardlookparts |
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Expert Posts: 2721 Location: Minneapolis | Agreed. I would have been hard-pressed to say that three or four years ago, but the Germans are on track now. Ford and GM are perilously closely to bankruptcy, due in large part to their dependence on dinosaurs (light duty trucks) and mediocre sedans. Chrysler is making GREAT looking cars again. I actually like that Charger, I am just waiting for law enforcement to start adopting it. Edited by forwardlookparts 2006-03-25 10:39 AM | ||
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| 50scars |
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Elite Veteran Posts: 663 Location: Oakley, Ill | Through out history, auto companies have made blunders, some recovered, some didn't. Kaiser, Studebaker, Packard to name a very few. During WWII, HF I had pretty well run FOMOCO into the ground such that the US Government let Henry the Duece out of the Navy to save the place, and he brought in the group that became known as the Whiz Kids to save the company. They got the company back on its feet, then did some neat highly successful things like Edsil. William C. Durrant put GM together, lost it, used Chevrolet to get back into control, and lost it again. Another GM blunder was when they merged Ross Perot's company Electronic Data Systems, or some name like that, and ended up buying him out to get him off their board. That was when GM's electronics made them the laughing stock of the industry. Periodically, Chrysler has done the watusi on their tool, like staying with the style where a man could wear a hat. I happen to like those cars, but I can see where they were far more dated than they should have been allowed to become. The 55 models saved the day. Then they rushed the 57s to market; as neat as those cars looked, they ruined Chrysler's reputation for years. Chrysler finally came up with the 5 year 50,000 mile warrantee to get themselves back into the game again. Remember the first Arab embargo in 1974? Chrysler was caught without a 4 cylinder model, and they kept trying to push Duster as the alternative to Pinto and Vega. In truth, the Duster was more of an economy car than either the Pinto or Vega, it just had 6 cylinders and was physically bigger. That bulletproof 225 CI 6 got darned near the same gas mileage as a 4 cyl Vega really delivered on the road, survived the full term of the payment book without major expenditure, and didn't ride all that bad, for a low cost 70s car. Remember Joe Garagola? "Get a car, Get a Check"! Chrysler gave us the REBATE. Then Lee Ioccocca came in and straightened Chrysler out again with the K-car, and shepherded the invention of the Mini-van. He ended up buying American Motors, and of all the owner's that Jeep has had, Chrysler is the only one who figured out how to actually sell Jeeps to retail buyers. | ||
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| Chrycoman |
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Expert Posts: 1819 Location: Vancouver, BC | One of the greatest ironies of the Jeep is that while it took Chrysler to figure out how to sell it, it was an ex-Chrysler executive that got Willys into the Jeep in the first place. A gentleman by the name of Joseph Washington Frazer left Chrysler in 1938 and became head of Willys-Overland. He embarked on a program of updating the Willys car and making it more mainstream. The result was the 1941 Willys Americar. And along the way he pushed Willys into the battle for what would become the Jeep. One big problem he had was the Willys 4-cylinder engine. It dated back to the 1926 Whippet, a name that described the engine to a tee - it stopped at every telephone pole. It was said you could tell how fast you were going by what shook loose or fell off. After driving for a couple of hours at 40 mph the exhaust manifold would shake loose. At 45 mph the water pump started leaking. Over a length of time at 50 mph the starter fell off. Finally, anything higher than that would cause complete destruction. And the Willys used Chrysler's famed "Floating Power" engine mounts after 1933! Needless to say that reputation would not bode well for Willys and the Jeep. Willys's chief engineer, Delmar (Barney) Roos was able to cure all the problems that ailed the little Willys four and make it into a very reliable engine. It would get overhead inlet valves in 1950 and last through 1971. Frazer left Willys in 1943 and acquired Graham-Paige. G-P was founded by the Graham brothers, the same brothers that built a truck using Dodge Brothers running gear and who managed Dodge Brothers in 1927 until the banker-owners started looking for a buyer. Although G-P never made money after 1930, the brothers used their interest in Owen Glass (the "O" in L-O-F glass) to keep the company afloat. It was one of the Graham brothers that developed a method of making glass bottles upside down which permitted the molten glass to build up around the crown. As a result, the bottle crown was strengthened enough to permit the use of the familiar bottle cap instead of a cork. After WWII G-P got involved with Henry J. Kaiser to build cars. By 1947 G-P was in a financial bind, not having enough cash to finance its third of K-F. G-P sold its interest in K-F to the Kaiser group and its assembly plant on Warren Avenue to Chrysler. G-P went into the real estate business. You may have heard of their major development in NYC - the Madison Square Gardens. Frazer remained at K-F for a few more years. When the plans were being laid for the 1949 model year the Kaisers wanted to go full speed ahead. But Frazer said, no, as the opposition would have new bodies and K-F would not. He felt that K-F could sell 60,000 cars and make a profit. He stated that what the Kaisers wanted would result in a $35 million loss. Anyway, the totally new Kaiser was a year away and they could make up for it then. But, the Kaisers got their way. In 1949 K-F sold 66,000 cars and lost $32 million. Not bad for a seat-of-the-pants analysis of the American market place and shows just how savy Frazer was. Frazer left K-F in 1951. The Kaisers purchased Willys in 1953, changed the company name to Kaiser Jeep in 1963 and sold it to American Motors in 1969. To show what a small world the auto industry is, AMC was formed with the merger of Hudson and Nash. The head of Nash was George Mason, an ex-Chrysler executive recommended to Charles Nash in 1936 to head his company. Nash was head of Buick in 1910 when he hired Walter Chrysler away from the railroad industry. And Hudson began with a model designed by the same group that designed the Chalmers, Chrysler's predecessor. The Hudson plant was across the street from the Chalmers plant on Jefferson Avenue - the one that was imploded and replaced with a new one for the Jeep Grand Cherokee. And of course, Chrysler was the man the saved Willys-Overland from bankruptcy in 1920-21, brought aboard by the banks to save their investment. The same bankers that hired Chrysler to save Maxwell and seven years later sold Dodge Brothers to Chrysler. I have always felt Frazer had desires for the presidency of Chrysler. That he left after Walter Chrysler retired and became too ill to be involved in the corporate runnings all lead to that conclusion. Although his background was sales, he had a strong respect for engineering and quality. The Willys Americar and Jeep attest to that fact. The 1947 Kaiser and Frazer were engineered by G-P before Kaiser got involved and used a flathead six along with Lockheed brakes. If you know how to repair a 1947 Dodge, you will have no problem with a 1947 Frazer. By the way, J.W. Frazer's most noted decision at Chrysler occured in 1928. When Chrysler management were deciding what to call the new low-priced model, it was Frazer who suggested Plymouth. And it was Frazer who, when Walter P. asked why, answered back with, "Ever hear of Plymouth binder twine?" Walter P. exclaimed, "Why, every g*******d farmer in America has heard of Plymouth binder twine!" And the rest is history. (And I bet you were wondering how Plymouth fit into all this) By the way, I agree with the comments on the Duster. It was a far better car than either the Pinto or the Vega and over the long haul a much cheaper car to run. Actually, even better than the Maverick. After all, how many Pintos, Vegas and Mavericks do you see these days? Does the total of all three even come close to the number of Dusters still on the road? | ||
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| 50scars |
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Elite Veteran Posts: 663 Location: Oakley, Ill | We used to joke that there was a law that said all Pinto's had to be painted red, and have Flammable written on the side. The law refered to tin cans that carried gasoline. Actually, Pinto got a bad rap. It was Vega that was the piece of swill from day one. It rusted on the dealer's showroom floor, the engine shook the car apart, and the technology they used to make the cylinders failed upon assembly. Can we name another fantastic GM Engineering Feat with an aluminum engine--CORVAIR! The 2nd series Corvairs were pretty good cars, compared to the first generation ones. By then, the reputation was gone, and GM had Ch**y II/Nova, a totally conventional car they understood--in line 6 cylinder, rearwheel drive. By the time Gm got around to fixing the Vega, they realized that the reputation was gone, so they changed the name--Monza. That wasn't all that bad a car, either. Except by the mid 70s, people had come to realize that the joke Toyopets had become Toyota, which was a great car, and GM was 5 years late, and $6 short again. GM wasn't done doing their developement work on the customer's back. Fiero!! Start out with an anemic 4 cylinder engine. Let it set fire to the cars, (among many, many other design and quality flaws) for a few years, then fix your wiring problems and install the V-6 that made the car live up to its styling potential. Another mistake you make is to tool up like you are going to double the total 2 pasenger car market with your new half baked effort. Then you wonder why you lost your butt on the car. They are at it again, too. They couldn't sell Pontiac G-6s, so they gave a bunch of them away on Oprah's show. (You didn't think Oprah sprung for that stunt, did you?) They developed a really slick retractable hardtop coupe and showed it at major auto shows--2 years in a row. They still do not have a date to deliver it to dealers. I just checked with my local Pontiac Dealer. VW is delivering theirs, and they didn't have one to show last year. There is another neat looking model Pontiac has in the works--Solstice. Looks just like a 54 Corvette. The way they designed the rear suspension, there is just enough room in the rear compartment (notice I didn't say trunk), to fold the soft top. You and a friend couldn't go for beer in the car--there is no place to put a case of beer. At least the Retro T-bird had room for a couple sets of clubs in the trunk. Solstice has an anemic 177 HP 4 cylinder engine. The G-6 has a 223 HP V-6. The guy who failed to find room between the spring towers for that V-6 in the Solstice should be neutered the way they do hogs--without drugs. GM has another failure in the making. | ||
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| 58Donnie |
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Account Suspended Posts: 2827 Location: At "The Rock" in upper East Tennessee | Thanks for all the reply's. I have a much better understanding now. | ||
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| Ray Bell |
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Expert Posts: 2473 Location: Dalveen, Queensland, Australia | Chrycoman... as one from what's almost another planet, could you tell me why Frazer expected Americans would so quickly identify to the name of their twine? I found this slight expansion on the story... http://www.uawdcx.com/images/news/plymouthname.htm ...and this advertising sign, apparently 28" long (no indicated dating at its source): (plymouthtwineSign.jpg) Attachments ----------------  plymouthtwineSign.jpg (50KB - 84 downloads) | ||
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| Black60Fury |
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Veteran Posts: 238 Location: The Potter Meat Market, Potter, WI | Back to the original question, I think there just wasn't a need for Plymouth anymore, as all of their products could be had as a Dodge and/or Chrysler. Why make three of everything? Mercury is in the same boat right now. What can you get in a Mercury that you couldn't get in a Lincoln or Ford? GM did the same with Olds, because you could get every GM model car as a Ch**y, Olds, Pontiac, and Buick, with the occasional Caddy stuck in there too. I'm a Plymouth guy too, but Chrysler did the right thing. And they really are starting to make some sweet looking machines again. It's going to be really interesting to see what happens to GM and Ford in the next couple of years. My prediction? GM will file Chapter 11 bankruptcy, cancel all their union contracts and pensions, then regroup and go back into business with a lot less overhead, and Ford will do the same thing but they won't have to file bankruptcy to do it. We'll see | ||
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| Chrycoman |
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Expert Posts: 1819 Location: Vancouver, BC | Ray Bell - 2006-03-26 2:45 PM Chrycoman... as one from what's almost another planet, could you tell me why Frazer expected Americans would so quickly identify to the name of their twine? I found this slight expansion on the story... ...and this advertising sign, apparently 28" long (no indicated dating at its source): Back in the 1920's about 50% of the population of the United States lived in towns and cities greater than 2,500. Which meant the rest lived in areas smaller than 2,500 or on farms, etc., ie., rural areas. Thus America was still a predominantly agrarian society, although the next two decades would completely change the face of American society. Thus Plymouth binder twine would be identified by at least 50% of the population. And given that towns of 2,500 to 10,000 persons would be more likely to be connected to rural communities than urban centres, that 50% would be closer to 60%. Also, sales of low-priced vehicles obtained a greater share of the market in rural areas due to lower incomes. In those days few farmers could afford a new Chrysler or Buick. Ford. Chevrolet, Essex, Whippet and Star were the big names in rural United States. Today, 21.0% of the American population lives in a rural area. Quite a change in both population make up and market targets. | ||
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| Ray Bell |
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Expert Posts: 2473 Location: Dalveen, Queensland, Australia | We've had a similar shift here, of course, so I can well understand that. Thanks for the explanation. | ||
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| desoto_zealot |
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Veteran Posts: 193 Location: FL | Point well made, Chryco. I'm not too thrilled about the Chrysler Corp. being taken over by the Germans either, but the fact is Chrysler is in much better shape now than it has been in a very long time. These guys did a great job turning the company around almost 180 degrees and pretty much changed the image of the Chrysler Corp. almost overnight. For the last 50 years or so, Chrysler was the laughing stock of the big three. 5 or 10 years ago I heard nothing but jokes and ridicule about the Chrysler Corporation. Now the tables have turned and Chrysler is now getting the respect it finally deserves. Compare the current Ford or GM lineup against Chrysler. There really is no comparison. Would you rather have a Crown Victoria, an Impala, or a Hemi 300? A Taurus, a Malibu, or a Hemi Charger? You get the idea. Ford and GM are shutting down plants and laying off workers by the busload. Both companies are rated "junk bond" status now and bankruptcy is pretty much inevitable at this point. Chrysler is the only one of the "big three" making money and enjoying healthy sales across the board. I really like that new Jeep Commander by the way. I might pick up a used one in a year or so. | ||
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