Re: IML: 1960 Starter Drags when Engine is At Operating Temp.
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Re: IML: 1960 Starter Drags when Engine is At Operating Temp.
- From: randalpark@xxxxxxx
- Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 16:54:38 -0400
I think he misinterpreted the internal heat that I was referring to. I
tried to clear that up in another post. We must be posting
simultaneously here.
Paul W.
-----Original Message-----
From: R.vdes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 12:26 PM
Subject: Re: IML: 1960 Starter Drags when Engine is At Operating Temp.
Maybe that is because your 67 starter is a "modern" reduction gear
starter, Paul and I are having direct drive starters in our 60's
Maybe a reduction gear starter is more sensitive to heat ?
Cheers,
Robert
----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher H"
<imperial67@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: "IML (main)" <mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: IML: 1960 Starter Drags when Engine is At Operating Temp.
I humbly have to disagree with that. My '67's original starter
exhibited
exactly these symptoms as it got near the end of its life after 124,000
miles. Hot starts (meaning any time the engine was at normal temp)
became
increasingly difficult due to thermal expansion of the starter from the
ambient heat of the exhaust and engine, which caused excessive draw due
to
the increased friction.
It took well over a year (which for me was only a couple hundred miles)
for
the starter to finally (and slowly) crank its last. Thankfully I had a
rebuilt unit and my tools in the trunk and a few extra hours in my
office
garage one Sunday night and I was good to go (which is not to say
wrestling
a 75-lb starter out of an Imperial is child's play!). And the new
starter
completely cured the hot starting challenge.
Chris in LA
67 Crown
78 NYB Salon
On 3/23/07 9:44 AM, randalpark@xxxxxxx at randalpark@xxxxxxx wrote:
Internal parts expansion should NOT be a problem with these cars. If
the engine is getting that hot, it isn't going to run very much
longer.
The only cause I have ever experienced with this symptom (starter
drag
when warm) on any of my Imperials has been the timing issue. For me,
starter trouble has always simply resulted in a total failure of the
unit, out of the clear blue sky without any warning.
Paul W.
-----Original Message-----
From: R.vdes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 8:32 AM
Subject: Re: IML: 1960 Starter Drags when Engine is At Operating
Temp.
Thanks Paul for your sharing your knowledge!
As always to the point, and very helpful!
I will give it a try then and back off the timing a little, too see
what happens.
The reason I gave it a little extra adventage is to compensate the
slight power loss that you get when you convert an engine to run on
LPG
(or propane as it is called in the US).
You can do this safely because the octane rating of propane is much
higher, so you don't have to worry about pre-ignition (spark knock).
Another reason for starter drag might be an internal seizure due to
expanding of parts inside under influence of the heat, don't you
think?
----- Original Message ----- From: <randalpark@xxxxxxx>
To: <mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 4:16 PM
Subject: Re: IML: 1960 Starter Drags when Engine is At Operating
Temp.
My feeble mind says that depending on where the engine is when it
stops, > if the ignition is firing, pushing the piston down, while
the
starter is > trying to push it up the starter will drag. If too many
pistons are doing > this at the same time, the engine will be
difficult
to crank. It can > happen when its cold too, but usually is more
noticeable, and likely to > occur when the engine is warmed up. Over
the years I have been in this > situation a number of times.
Correcting
the timing has reduced the load on > the starter.
My father actually once talked a guy he worked with into rebuilding
the > engine in a car that was doing the same thing, after he
replaced
the > starter. My father, who is a mechanical engineer, convinced the
guy that > he had a spun bearing, and that the engine was going to
seize, even though > the car ran fine once it started. The new engine
didn't fix the problem. > Further discussion led to the fact that the
guy habitually advanced his > timing, even on his new "long block"
engine, a little bit past factory > specification to get a little
extra
"UMPHF". When he backed it off, the > problem went away.
As I have explained before, my knowledge is based on practical
experience. > I am not an engineer, chemist, or scientist. What I
share
has worked for > me. I road time my cars, I do not use a light. When
they are too far > advanced, they spark knock, which is damaging to
the
engine. They can be > difficult to turn over, particularly when
warmed
up. There are several > different problems that can cause this same
symptom. I am suggesting one > idea that might correct it.
In your shoes, I would back off the timing and see if the problem
went > away, before replacing the starter, especially since you know
that the > timing is advanced..
Paul W.
-----Original Message----- >> From: R.vdes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 5:27 AM
Subject: Re: IML: 1960 Starter Drags when Engine is At Operating
Temp.
Sorry Paul, but I don't understand...
How can the timing influence the rotation speed of a starter motor??
I must admit that my timing is too advanced hower, it's about 12.5
degrees > BTDC instead of the recommended 10 degrees. That is because
the engine is > running on propane instead of gasoline.
Since propane has a much higher octane rating then regular gasoline
it is > safe to advance the timing a little, and it gives the engine
more power.
But I don't understand why this also influence the performance of
the
starter motor when the engine has been warmed up ?
Maybe you can shine a light on it for me :)
Thanks,
Robert
----- Original Message ----- From: <randalpark@xxxxxxx>
To: <mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 12:36 PM
Subject: IML: 1960 Starter Drags when Engine is At Operating Temp.
That will also happen if the timing is too advanced. Try backing it
off
a little and see if the problem goes away. Heat shouldn't effect the
starter that much.
Paul
-----Original Message----- >> From: R.vdes@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Fri, 23 Mar 2007 2:50 AM
Subject: Re: IML: Wire Wheels for my 60 imperial
OK James,
I understand, maybe the best thing I can do is to find me a
reputable
rebuilder and send him my original starter.
You see, mine is having problems when it is getting hot. The starter
spins perfectly when the car is cold, but when the car is driven for
a
while and the engine has warmed up it turns around very slow.
If you wait for an hour or so the starter will act normal again :)
Robert
----- Original Message ----- >> From: James L BURTON
To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 11:36 AM
Subject: Re: IML: Wire Wheels for my 60 imperial
Hello, no I havent I think its not worth all of the opposition and
the
hassle to go with the little outcome of the result. The msd
ingnition
system has to be on its toes. To have the least effect against my
oringinal starter. The header issue isnt worth the gamble when Im
just
going to use it for cruisins, and some kind of shows .My motor is
allthat and im not going risk nothing because everything shiney and
new
will make you feel that way.
----- Original Message ----- >> From: Rob van der Es
To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 1:46 AM
Subject: Re: IML: Wire Wheels for my 60 imperial
Hi James,
Have you actually found another starter for your 60 already?
I am still looking around for the best option you see.
Thanks,
Robert
----- Original Message ----- >> From: James L BURTON
To: mailing-list@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2007 9:35 PM
Subject: IML: Wire Wheels for my 60 imperial
To everybody thank you for your support on helping me make a sound
decision on the hi output starter, and header for my . There both
out
now Im looking for some wire wheels , Does anybody know if a ford
wire
wheel will fit the imperial ? If not can somebody help me ?
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