[Chrysler300] Re: Pièce de résistance
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[Chrysler300] Re: Pièce de résistance





Thanks Rich for the comprehensive write-up. I looked at the diagram in my 62 shop manual last night briefly, and the only part I don’t understand is a wire apparently going from the coil side of the BR to the alternator. It makes no sense to me, so I’ll look at the diagram tomorrow with fresher eyes (those lines seem to run together after a while!).
Mike Moore. 
On Mar 4, 2016, at 9:41 PM, Rich Barber <c300@xxxxxxx> wrote:

Regarding the ignition system ballast resistor and associated system.
 
I’ve spent way too much time studying and tracing the various DC circuits in our ’64 300K, but I thought it may be useful to some to try to explain and identify the ignition switch (IS)/ballast resistor (BR)/coil (C ) system.  The wiring diagrams for our 1964 300K may be found at dual member John Holst’s most excellent website at:  http://www.jholst.net/wiring/wiring.pdf   The wiring codes below refer to that wiring diagram.
 
The object of the BR is to reduce the Voltage to the coil while the engine is running, thus extending the life of the ignition “points” and prevent their oxidation.  Wiring and a separate power source are provided to route full Voltage to the coil while the engine is cranking.  This facilitates a start, even with the lowered battery Voltage which occurs while the starter is engaged.  Voltage drop across the BR will vary with engine speed with only one Volt, or so, drop at idle and more at running speed.as the required current increases.  The resistance of the ignition resistor is specified at 0.5-0.6 Ohms so a 10-Amp coil current would produce a 5-6 Volt drop.  The Ignition system current draw is specified as 1.9 Amps at idle.  

·         +12V power is hard-wired (through the bulkhead connector) from the battery to the IS at all times—no fuse or circuit breaker.

·         When the ignition key is twisted to the “Start” position, the full +12V is sent from the “IGN 2” lug on the IS to a connector on one end of the BR (via J3-an 18-gauge Brown wire).  The full +12V is then routed via a second wire attached to the same connector (J2A 14-gauge Dark Blue) from the connector to the + terminal on the coil.  This provides the full +12V to the coil while cranking.

·         When the engine starts or the key is no longer twisted to the right, power to the coil is routed from the brass “IGN” lug on the IS to the connector on the other end of the BR via a Dark Blue 16-gauge wire.  A second wire (R5-Dark Blue, 18-gauge) is routed from this same connector to the “IGN” lug on the Alternator Regulator as a reference Voltage for controlling the alternator outlet Voltage while the engine is running.

Note: 
While it does not matter which of the two connectors described above is fitted to which of the two brass lugs on the square-section white ceramic BR enclosure, the varying lengths of the two pairs of wires extending from the wiring harness will route each pair of wires to one or the other of the brass lugs on the BR.  One of the two pairs of these ignition system wires consists of an 18-gauge Brown wire plus a 14-gauge Dark Blue wire.  The other pair consists of one 16-gauge wire and one 18-gauge wire—both Dark Blue.  Colors of the insulation on the wires lose their intensity and identity over the years, especially under the hood.
Caution:
On air-conditioned cars there is a somewhat similar white ceramic-encased resistor within about eight inches of the BR.  This resistor is used to provide low and medium speeds of the blower fan and has the same size connection lugs as the BR.  The big differences between the two resistors include the blower resistor being a round, hollow, cylindrical ceramic case which has a single Brown 16-gauge wire (C4A and C4B-- http://www.jholst.net/64-service-manual/air-conditioning.pdf)  connected at each end.  These two Brown wires are not included in the main wiring harness but protrude, along with a light-blue 18-gauge wire for the A/C compressor clutch, through a separate grommet on the firewall.  I measured the blower resistor’s resistance at 12 Ohms.  It would take no great effort to mix the wires to the blower resistor and the BR.  Don’t.
 
During my research, several interesting data surfaced.  The 1964 Service Manual specifications show two different coils for Chryslers of that year:  2444261 on 361’s and 383’s. and 2444263 on basic 413’s.  413/390’s had 2444242 and 413/360’s had 2444241.  This indicates there was some fine tuning of turns ratios and impedances for different engines.  The Parts Manual shows the same coil on all MoPar cars except hemi’s 2495531.  What’s sitting on top of your K engine?  The 1963 Parts Manual shows the same coil across the board while the 1963 Service Manual shows four different coils with two different sets of spec’s.  There is also a dichotomy regarding spark plugs.  Ranging from J9y to J12Y and including an XJ9y and Xj10Y—but that subject could ignite another too-long thread.  Sounds like the bean counters were doing the ignition engineering.  Plus, the coil specifications are poorly presented and coordinated between the Service and Parts manuals.  Interchange info:  all Champion plugs with the X prefix:  RJ12YC.  Without the X prefix:  j12YC.  Informative magic decoder ring for Champion plugs:  http://www.federalmogulmp.com/en-US/Technical/Documents/Champion%20Spark%20Plug%20Symbols%20Definitions.pdf or: http://tinyurl.com/zatv56a    
 
C300K’ly,
Rich Barber
Brentwood, CA (Rainy!)
 
From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Michael Moore mmoore8425@xxxxxxx [Chrysler300]
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 2:12 PM
To: John Grady <jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [Chrysler300] Surprising source of miss in 300 ?
 
 

John and Marshall,
This is really kind of interesting to understand. My XJ6 did not have that many wires and was easily understood. I’ll check my shop manual and see what could be wrong.

A few days ago, I had the engine running as good as it has for a long time and was adjusting the carbs. I had them balanced, idle at 650 (most unusual) and was feeling pretty good as I worked with the idle mixture screws.Then, without warning, it just quit. No coughing, none of the running out of gas drama. Just instantly Dead silent.
I tried to start it and it would run so long as I was in the start position, but not when I let go. Being tired, annoyed etc. I decided to call it a day. (If at first you don’t succeed, to h with it!)

The next day it would start eventually if I went through the routine of trying over and over. That was when I decided the only way I was going to solve it was to swap out the entire ignition system starting with the ballast resistor and going through the plugs.

The car stopping without warning COULD have been the BR breaking and disconnecting the coil. I am not clear what the multiple wires do on the ballast resistor. I can understand 12v from the ignition switch, 6 volts out to the coil, and a second 12v start from the ign on the same end as the coil feed. But, I have another wire on both ends I need to identify.
The eventual starting COULD have been the two resistor wire ends coming into contact as I cranked it, then fusing.
Anyway, my parts just arrived so I am going to be busy this afternoon. The NOS OEM are Made in Mexico
Champion J12YC plugs.sigh.

Thanks, MIke Moore
300H

On Mar 4, 2016, at 11:36 AM, John Grady <jkg@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Hi Mike, A bad ballast resistor would stop you ---not burn the points. Remember Darts that start , and then stall immediately when you release key? Ballast. I believe you may possibly have a wiring mistake at the ballast where the feed to the coil is taken on the 12v side, or something like that .Check all connections , colors of wires at and around ballast and on back of key and at coil, to factory wiring diagram. It will sort of work with 10 different mistakes..particularly confusing on these cars is Chrysler's start system, which kills ignition loads at crank except for a new feed --only during crank ---you get from the second S terminal (or sometimes another relay contact on the starter relay) ------that allows the car to start while the normal ignition power wire feeding the ballast is dead, zero v or very low (it back feeds some though ballast into ign power wire ) . I think they did this so all other loads go off during crank (ac, radio, heat fan etc) , but then it would not catch as there is no main ign power, by design --unless the 12V is supplied..they supply it directly to the coil, bypassing the ballast during crank from that second S terminal on key , You cannot do it with the same S terminal as the starter, or else ballast volts normally there running will pull in the starter relay all the time the ign is on.

This whole thing can drive you crazy and is not well explained . I only know about it after suffering with two swapped wires on a Dart key switch. Plug had melted someone made up individual wires then put them on, swapping two...long story, not for here. Car ran.

While idling you should have like 5-6 V at coil input side w average meter , ---or at least , less than the 12V (varies w RPM dwell etc) , if wiring right..

If not that wiring issue, burned points also immediately says bad capacitor, especially if a "new one". If it has stamped indented lines in can end , opposite end from the wire going in, it is Chinese junk. Get an old one, check it, put in . Car will barely run with no capacitor or an open one, spark extremely weak and arcing points at break. . It will however run OK initially with 12V on coil (the wiring error) --- but eventually burn points.

Dwell going UP (if that is correct data) is points way set too close , Mike ...Burning , you would expect an opening up, Dwell drop, unless cam rub block is rubbing down? And so not opening them. Look at the mechanical action with the cap off... There is chance points were set too close, does not matter who did it, did not open enough, they arc across and burn. Or same thing caused by open capacitor. I had mentioned in an earlier email how critical that setting process is ,and hard to get perfect.

Sounds like bad cap..They are intermittent too. Adds to the fun.

-----Original Message-----
From: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Michael Moore mmoore8425@xxxxxxx [Chrysler300]
Sent: Friday, March 04, 2016 9:55 AM
To: Mike Moore
Cc: Chrysler300@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [Chrysler300] Surprising source of miss in 300 ?

I have been trying to eliminate a miss in my 300H.

In the ongoing effort, I have replaced the damper, installed a Philbin rebuilt distributor, new plug wires, new plugs, carbs “restored”, coil replaced etc. with no improvement. Even 108 octane gasoline hasn’t helped.

I made arrangements for a visit to a great shop with a Sun engine analyzer (equivalent) , but I had to get it running reliably enough to get down there, and it now ran worse each time I started it.

Judging the problem to be ignition related versus carbs, I decided to strip and replace the entire ignition apparatus from ballast resistor through plugs. I ordered NOS Champion J-12Y plugs (which have always worked well for me), a new set of ignition cables (which are the best I have seen), a new coil, correct Mopar points, and new capacitor.

I began with a new correct ballast resistor and noticed the old ballast resistor ceramic wire wound resistor inside was broken into two pieces. As I hadn’t disassembled the rest of the system, I started the car with the new ballast resistor with no improvement, so I incorrectly dismissed that as the source of my miss.

While waiting for my original new parts to arrive, and after doing a thorough (165# on all 8) compression check (because all the plugs were out, front wheels were off and access was so easy), I disassembled the points from the distributor last night.

I found them badly burned! Aha!

My earlier distributor trouble shooting was to check only the dwell angle since it had recently been rebuilt. I noted the dwell angle had increased to 45 degrees since I installed the distributor when it came back from Philbin.

I now believe what happened was that the ballast resistor failed sometime in past years, allowing the points to burn because of the higher than specified voltage on the coil. In recent years I haven’t driven the car much, but have changed the points entirely too often and haven’t noticed it too much because although it might be only 1500 miles, it may have been 3 years. I am certainly anxious to get it back together.

Thanks for all the help on line and off.
Mike Moore
300H

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Posted by: Michael Moore <mmoore8425@xxxxxxx>
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Posted by: Michael Moore <mmoore8425@xxxxxxx>


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