{Chrysler 300} Re: 300F Engine dyno

Hi, I agree, great input.

I was at my engine builder a few times while he was dynoing stuff, just by way of interesting things...(hey come on down!) Guy builds drag race engines even for west coast days ,maybe 4 a month, he is right on. Typically 5-6 engines awaiting dyno . For example last time there I saw a Ford Coyote with 700 lift at valve, Hard to believe .copper oil squirters right at valve top etc etc . He converted a Mercedes 240 diesel 4 cyl to gas, ran at Bonneville, set record. ....point is he knows his stuff. Had 7 sec twin turbo BBC Camaro on street too. Now more sane.

Anyway, tale 1:

354 hemi, pulling steady 360 HP at only 5200 on dyno, it dies (The ole MSD 6 punt action) ; owner runs out to car, had stock dual point distributor in trunk ("just to finish run ") it pulls 360 HP, runs right to 6200 no skip. They are both staring at each other....Now, ----about points being a problem? ...wasn't in 56 Nascar, ot Daytona beach , not now either. MSD or Pertronix = a "you walk" problem ? smile. MSD = (-) 600$ too , thins the wallet.

Tale 2: long Ram on built 440 , "discussion" about ram vs mopar perf single 4 bbl , Guy wanted 500 HP ,Engine builder says no way with ram, and even torque improvement # vs other manifold (not the RPM tuning aspect, which was there) , but HP at 3300 may not be there. "it will cost you 30 + HP " I like how it looks" , owner says. We agree on that. A/B comparison. So if I remember right , 420 HP on rams , about 450 single quad, around 5500, about same torque at 3300. Remember "built 440" not stock, but for street,so not crazy. . Still , I would like to see J/K ram on it with a pair of AVS carbs, machined ram carb mount to match ....no heat. But the simplicity of a single carb really calls......

Carl's point about needing 3x2 on 440 to match 390 HP J is a great one.I say the same thing. And George's J WAS fast., as was Don Cole 's K . I think , after seeing it snap a spicer U joint right off in Maine, George had a 440+ under all the smoke. We love George.....!

Brings up Trick Flow heads and 1 4bbl manifold, all aluminum, they produce 500 Hp out of 440.

Times change, heads too ...the TF stuff is tempting,as is max wedge style intake now reproduced by AA transmission .I often wondered why that was not on J? Maybe too high RPM tune.... or J development of Ram was already planned...but it came back later on cross ram hemi

John G

On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 12:35 PM Bob Jasinski <rpjasin@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

Dyke,

Thanks for the overview of dyno testing. Very enlightening, it’s a much more complex procedure than I realized.

Bob J

From: chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> On Behalf Of ridgleyracing65
Sent: Thursday, January 11, 2024 5:08 PM
To: Chrysler 300 Club International <chrysler-300-club-international@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: Re[2]: {Chrysler 300} 300F Engine Dyno Results

I have dynoed countless engines over the last 40 years. We routinely run every rebuild on the dyno. I can tell you this: absolute numbers mean very little. Every dyno will produce different numbers depending upon how it is calibrated and who is operating it. I have told my clients for years, if they tell me how much power they want, I will get them dyno sheets that show that amount of power. Dynos can be manipulated by how the correction factor is input by the operator. The correction factor is made up of ambient temp, dyno room temp, specific gravity of the fuel, barometric pressure at the very time of the pull, etc. By altering these numbers, a good dyno operator can make an engine produce about anything he desires. As for us, our operator always sets up the dyno very conservatively, so we are pretty sure the engine makes at least as much power as the dyno sheets show. In the 1950-70 time frame, factory dyno tests were done using the "gross" method, as mentioned earlier. However this process also included optimizing the "tune" for each rpm level during the pull. In other words, the jetting and ignition timing were changed to give max torque numbers (dynos only measure torque) at each rpm step. The final jetting and advance curve when the engines were installed on the assembly line was not the same as the best settings on the dyno.

Dyno's are only good for A/B testing. Run the motor and make a change and run it again. The dyno will tell you if the engine liked the change or not and by how much it was better or worse. To intelligently comment on the gentleman's engine, I would need to see a complete dyno chart for a pull. What were the inputs to the "correction factor", what did the oxygen sensors for the cylinders show or what were the Brake Specifics during the pull to determine it the motor was running lean or rich. Maybe his motor was too lean, and had high exhaust gas temps or too much fuel was causing the brake specifics to be too low. Did they make a number of pulls to try different timing numbers? On the surface, it would seem the torque number is about right, but then the bhp seems low to match the torque, but again, nowhere near enough data is available to make any conclusions. The gentleman needs to get a lot more data from the testing before any real analysis can be done.

Dyke Ridgley

On Thursday, January 11, 2024 at 5:41:24 PM UTC-6 Carl Bilter wrote:

While not my area of expertise, I believe that Ray is correct. Dyno would measure at the flywheel, correct?, but in order to get net hp, the full exhaust system and all engine accessories need to be installed. Based on the torque number listed (matches advertised gross output), it would appear to be a gross hp measurement. If truly stock and correctly rebuilt, it should be much higher than 316hp gross hp. Many factors involved, including the cam - and if it has the special 4 degree retard built in or, if not, the special three key way crank gear used and set up correctly. That is critical.

As far as I know we do not have documentation from Chrysler on the true output of the standard F and G engines. But we do have the document related to the J engine which Chrysler dyno'd in Aug. 1962 - I think it might be on the club website somewhere. We know for a fact that the J (and Ram K which was the same) made at LEAST 25 more hp than F/G - and that was straight from the expert - the late Burt Bouwkamp. It made more power due to short rams, solid cam, and headers. Chrysler tested the true NET hp of the J engine (with full stock exhaust system) and it peaked at about 315 to 320hp. That means gross hp would have been at LEAST the advertised 390hp and maybe more. BTW, consider how remarkable that was in 1963-63 - not counting the max wedge and 426 hemi - it was wasn't until the 6 pack 440 came out that you had a 440 that made 390hp!

Therefore, it is likely that the F and G standard 413 actually produced as much as 365 GROSS hp, and perhaps much more (375 certainly possible).

Carl B.

------ Original Message ------

From "Ray Melton" <rfme...@xxxxxxx>

To "dplotkin" <dplo..@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

Cc "'300 Club'" <chrysler-300-cl...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

Date 1/11/2024 4:14:51 PM

Subject Re: {Chrysler 300} 300F Engine Dyno Results

What factors do they address to get from old gross numbers to today's net numbers? I seem to recall that the old gross numbers were obtained without running ancillaries like a generator/alternator, power steering pump, A/C, etc., but what else? I believe from his wording that Mr Grossi sent just the engine itself to the dyno, so there should be no drivechain losses.   And it looks like only the horsepower number was significantly different than the old measurement, but the torque number was close to the same. That doesn't make sense to me - (YET)! I don't know if the peak torque and HP numbers occurred at about the same RPM as original, but assuming that they are, how else can that difference be explained?

Ray Melton      300C cvt in Las Cruces, NM

****************************************

On 1/11/2024 2:43 PM, dplotkin wrote:

The original ratings were gross. Today's ratings are net.

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

-------- Original message --------

From: Frederick Grossi <e55g...@xxxxxxxxx>

Date: 1/11/24 12:53 PM (GMT-05:00)

To: chrysler-300-cl...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Subject: {Chrysler 300} 300F Engine Dyno Results

Hello Group,

The rebuild on my 300F engine has been completed and the engine rebuilder sent it to the dyno for break-in, running condition and leak detection.
The engine is stock, stock carburetors and ram intake manifold, stock bore (it was sleeved because of pitting on a couple of the cylinder walls), as stock a cam as you can get, same crankshaft and pistons. The engine was rebuilt by someone else in 1995 before I owned the car. The engine was bored .004 at that time.
My rebuilder wanted to share the results with our group to see if anyone else had similar experiences:

Maximum engine torque - 2,900 rpm- 496 ft. lbs.
Maximum horsepower -     4,600 rpm - 316 hp

The horsepower is about 16% lower than factory specifications of 375hp.
Has anybody else had this differential in hp from factory? Is this normal?

Thank you,
Fred Grossi
Pegram, TN

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