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Veteran
Posts: 104
Location: Bruceville,Texas | I have a question, mostly directed towards those living outside the US. After reading the post about gas possibly hitting $10 a gallon, I got to thinking about how the energy prices have affected me and how I live, compared to how others live overseas.
With the price of gas climbing everyday, the media reports that it is higher on the west coast, or higher on the east coast, lower prices in the south or really expensive in Europe. This really doesn't mean anything to me. If the average wage is high, then the rising gas prices don't really affect people as much as if the average was lower.
I was hoping that you could help me put things in a more understandable perspective.
Example: I live in central Texas, and gas is about $3.45 a gallon. I have to work about 3 hours to fill the tank in my truck(25 gallons). I have to work about 5 hours to pay my electric bill and 1 hour to pay my water bill. I'll work 2 hours to feed 4 people at a modest restaraunt and 1 1/2 hours to take those same 4 people to a movie. I have to work 5 1/2 weeks to pay my property and school taxes for the year and about 6 months to earn a years worth of mortgage payments.
My question for those members living on the east/west coast and those living outside the US, how long do you have to work to earn the money to pay your living expenses?
Edited by 71rlb 2008-04-29 7:58 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1918
 
Location: Hell's Outhouse - a.k.a. Buckeye, Arizona | Hell, I'm paycheck-to-paycheck now - no trips to town for anything. Can't afford it. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 709
Location: Poznan, Poland, Europe | Well, I don't work yet, but I see how it goes with father's salary. Over 50% of it goes for rent, electricity&gas + telephone/cellphones. Average salary is said to be ~2400 PLN, (~5300$) but there are big differences, most people earn netto lower , much less earns a lot more. We're constantly lacking money to close month without struggling, with only minor sums left for any kind of entertainment or pleasure goods. |
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| Here in Tennessee, the "living expenses" for our household are approximately $22,000/year.
That includes basic necessities such as electricity, water, and gas heat... Plus the bills for car insurance, homeowners' insurance, health insurance, cable, telephone, and other "needed" incidentals. I've also tried to figure into that number an approximation of fuel costs... allowing about $100-$110 weekly for my wife, and about $40/week for myself.
Again, that figure of $22k/annually is based only on current bills and a limited number of so-called "creature comforts" we've grown to depend on over the years. (Keep in mind, this figure IN NO WAY reflects the money we spend - or would like to spend - on recreation, entertainment, or classic car expenses.)
We're currently living in a 900 (+/-) square-foot condo... but it's paid for free and clear - so we'll probably make do with that for a few more years.
The GOOD news is that my wife is in the health care field... and starts a new job next month making about $6-8k/year more than I do. (I have been calling her my new "sugar Mama." She HATES that! LOL)
Until now, we've pretty much been living two lives off of 1.5 salaries. Things SHOULD improve for us personally, but the U.S. Economy is still in the crap-hole.
-NM
Edited by Nathan D. Manning 2008-04-30 5:14 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 663
Location: Oakley, Ill | I live in Central Illinois. I took a 10 year mortgage on this house. My property taxes add 70% to my house payment, but unlike the house payment, property taxes will never go away, nor do I expect that the politicians will ever reduce them. We did not experience the fantastic run up in house values other areas did, but our real estate is not tanking now, either. Income taxes, Social security, company car use charge, and insurance eat half my paycheck before I ever see it. I drive a company owned car. My monthly personal use charge is based on what the car is (2004 Explorer--mine has 175,000 miles on it). I paid $348 a month until it was 48 months old, then it went down to $78. I reported 156 personal miles last month. I report about 4,000 personal miles annually. You get to pay federal income tax based on the federal allowance for business miles for any miles that over come your personal use payment. I do admit that I am the one who keeps the records, and am experienced enough at it, that you will be unable to disprove what I tell you. I have had the IRS go through my vehicle records and swallow them as presented. I also am careful to plan ahead so I do my errands on the way to where I am going anyway. There is no carry forward for payments in excess of the miles you report. I live where the power comes from REA. Mine costs 13 cents a KWH.
I worked at Kroger packing groceries in 1960. Gas normally cost 25 cents a gallon. It changed price all the time, sometimes it went as low as 20 cents, but more often went up as high as 30 cents. Imagine today what you'd say if gas swung between $2 and $3 in a month? I made 50 cents an hour. My son worked at the exact same Kroger I did in 2002. He made $8.75 an hour. That is 17.5 times what I made. My 20 cent gas would be $3.50 now. My 30 cent gas would be $5.25 now. His car was a 94 Crown Victoria. One of my cast off company cars. Over the 250,000 miles we had the car, it averaged 23 MPG according to its digital dash. Who has a Forward look car that you could lie well enough to convince someone who was not an idiot that you got 23 MPG?
Today's prices are an indication of what our politicians have done to the value of our money. An ounce of gold still buys about 10 barrels of oil. I saw a comparison between what a 2008 Corvette costs and what a1958 Corvette cost, in terms of ounces of gold. THE EXACT SAME PRICE!!!!
In 1953, the Federal budget was $60 billion. They collected $2 billion in various taxes and fees more than they spent that year. I recall Nixon announcing the $200,000 billion budget sometime in the early 70s. Like in 2002, we had the $2 TRILLION budget. A Trillion is a Million Billion. A Billion is a Million Million. Now we have a budget of $3 Trillion-$3 Million Million Million. In 1953, Social security took $108 of your first $3,600 counting both what you put in and your employer matched--or if you were self employed, you paid all of it-2.88 %. In 1973, they took $1268 or your first $10,800--11.74%. In 2007 they took $15,180 of your first $97,000, or 15.65%. In 2008 they are going to up the ceiling to $102,000. How many of you expect a raise of $5,000 this year? The feds are not the only culprits. The states and the local units of government have their hands deeper and deeper into your pocket, too. And these idiots are going BROKE---they can't live on what they rip off us now. The property tax on this place has doubled in 12 years. Volunteer fire, volunteer ambulance, tar and chip roads (falling apart), no sewer, no water, no garbage pickup, call 911 and see how long it takes Deputy Dog to show up. Of course, we don't have all the city Gestapo clowns messing with us, either. I can leave my garage door open, leave a parts car out for a while, and nobody says anything about it.
Sure the oil companies are reporting "record profits". Did you make more than you ever did before? Then you reported "record profits", too. The oil cmpanies had some tough years in the 90s, but you didn't hear any sob stories about how they made nothing, did you? The oil companies are stopping about 8 cents a gallon. Most of the gas pumps I see have a sticker telling you how much tax is paid on a gallon of gas--they claim around 45 cents. They don't include the 7.25% sales tax that is the last thing figured. If the gas is $3 a gallon before they figure sales tax, that tax alone adds 22 cents to the price you pay. Exxon Mobil has half its stock held by pension funds and mutual funds--YOUR RETIREMENT FUNDS. The governent takes 35% of those profits, and the locals get their pound of flesh, too. Then, when they pay dividends, you get to pay 15% income tax on that money that is left over after the feds, and the states, and the locals skimmed off their take.
They won't let us drill off shore, but Canada, Mexico, and Cuba can. They won't let us drill in an area of Alaska the size of LAX, out of an area the size of North Carolina, even though the local people want us to. They have not let us build any new refineries since 1976, but we can import 15% of our unleaded gas as a finished product. They want us to use corn as a fuel stock, trippling the price of the stuff in 3 years, even though it takes between 90% and 110% of the energy you get from corn ethanol, depending upon which University's figures you use, just to produce it. There are getting to be other University studies that say that actually, it screws up the environment more than it helps, too.
I want clean water and clean air. Nobody wants dirty water or dirty air. Unless you live somewhere like Los Angeles, or Houston, we have clean water and clean air. Even in those cities, most of the time, it is pretty good, too. Go to Mexico City and see how you breathe there. Or Paris, or Bejing, or....
Nuclear power is a great way to generate electricty. If the whackos would have simply let them complete a plant, then upgrade it to the new standard at one time, Nuclear plants would not have cost triple the planned cost and taken twice as long to build. As it was, they kept making them tear out completed systems and redo them along the way during construction, simply because someone changed a to A and added a punctuation mark in the manual. I'm not kidding you. I was an authorized Nuclear Inspector with an N stamp on my NB commission. I got sick of forcing that kind of crap on the builders and moved on. I don't know anymore about Three Mile Island than what was printed in the newspapers. However, based on 8 years in the Navy Nuclear Power Program, and 10 years civilian nuclear plant experience, the only way that could have happened was intentional sabatoge, or total absolute incredible incompetence of the whole plant's operational personel. And even then, no radiaton got loose to the public outside the containment vessel. The reason Nuclear generated electricity was not as cheap as it was supposed to be was the unlike conventional plants, where the cost of the plant is added to the rate base as it become property of the utility, the regulators wouldn't let them add it to the rate base until it was complete and on line. So instead of paying for it out of cash flow, as was anticipated, the Utilities had to borrow money for the construction bills, then they added it all at one time, with accrued interest, which skyrocketed the electric rates. Just add up your house payment for the first one. Now figure that you just kept adding that much to your loan, then after 10 years you had to find the money to pay that much more, and you can understand what happened with nuclear electricty.
Our problems today stem from left wing whackos and the politicians that pander to them. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 709
Location: Poznan, Poland, Europe | How can it be that there were no new refineries since '76 ?!  3 years after '73 when everyone was searching for new supplies of oil and a way to improve it's quantities....adding the 30 years since then, do you have any working refineries at all ? Those old ones must have deteriorated 
Edited by FinFan 2008-05-01 6:27 AM
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Inactive by user's request
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada | 50scars - 2008-04-30 5:15 PM
I was an authorized Nuclear Inspector with an N stamp on my NB commission. I got sick of forcing that kind of crap on the builders and moved on. I don't know anymore about Three Mile Island than what was printed in the newspapers. However, based on 8 years in the Navy Nuclear Power Program, and 10 years civilian nuclear plant experience, the only way that could have happened was intentional sabatoge, or total absolute incredible incompetence of the whole plant's operational personnel...........
John, you've hit on one of my pet peeves.
My late uncle, who was a nuclear engineer for Westinghouse, stated nearly the same thing as you did. And I'll add that all it takes is some nepotism or cronyism and you can have personnel of dubious qualifications working in the wrong spot.
Imagine, if you will, civilian nuclear power plants being micromanaged by short sighted government mandates.  That is, an electric utility being told by the Feds who they can and can't employ based upon doing business (selling power) to government agencies. That already goes on in some segments of private sector doing business with government agencies. If there aren't enough qualified people available to fill personnel quotas, so be it.
Of course, there is always some risk for human error. But that goes for every form of power generation.....fossil fuels, wind, hydro-electric, solar. Many people don't realize nuclear power is just another way to generate steam to spin turbines.
BTW, the cooling towers so often portrayed by far left whackos as spewing radioactive waste has nothing to do with nuclear power.
Take a look at the Bailey Generating Station in Indiana, south of Chicago. That coal fired plant uses a massive cooling tower. There are nuclear plants in Wisconsin which use cooling ponds. The radioactive water which generates the heat to create steam does not directly contact in the non-radioactive water which is boiled into steam to spin the turbines.
Radiation poisoning and dealing with nuclear waste are serious issues which do not allow room for error. But so is operating a massive dam with billions of gallons of water stored behind it. When a steam main ruptured at the coal-fired Mohave Power Plant in Bullhead City, Arizona, we received injured workers whose skin was boiled off their bodies. The main was manufactured in 1971 and failed in 1985. As I recall, the failure was the result of a manufacturing defect.
There is absolutely no excuse for a failure of such magnitude.
I believe nuclear power has a larger role to play in generating electricity. So does burning coal with appropriate pollution controls. No doubt, more efficient turbines can be designed for all forms of generation, steam (including nuclear), water or wind, to give more bang for the buck.
One of my pet peeves over the years has been how people seem to forget the risks miners face extracting coal for our conventional power plants.
To me, using petroleum and natural gas in large plants to generate electricity is a HUGE waste.
K.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 663
Location: Oakley, Ill | Fin fan, it is true, there have been absolutely no new refineries built in the USA since 1976. In fact many old ones have been shut down. The world has built a bunch, but not in the USA. Improvements in the existing technologies have improved to performance of existing units, but the fact is that instead of refining crude for all of our finished petroleum products, we import a bunch of it as finished product. One reason diesel fuel is so costly is that you only get 7 gallons of it from a 40 gallon barrel of oil, where you get about 20 gallons of gasoline. We import a great deal of diesel fuel as finished product. Diesel fuel is also heating oil, with different colors in it to distinguish the different tax levels. Much of the world uses more diesel fuel than gasoline, so demand is higher. To them, gasoline is an excess product, so they will sell it to us finished cheaper than they will sell diesel fuel. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1172
Location: bradenton florida | here's where I stand... I'm sorta lucky I some ways and not so lucky in others. my mortgage on my house is a 15 year at 4 1/4 %fixed. it's almost paid off but at that rate it's not worth paying off early. in Florida they have a law that limits your property taxes increases to a very low rate. so I'm only paying about 33% of what I should be paying. I don't have any car payments. I have been using 100% fluorescent lighting for the past 10 years. I'm in the process of installing a additional water tank in my attic to pre warm the water before it goes into the hot water heater. as my attic has additional insulation in it and I have installed 4 large vents in the attic that none of the houses in my development have. my electric bills are about 100$ a month, in the summer with the ac on it's 140. we only eat out once a month and then it's just a pizza. can't afford any entertainment other than car shows. my biggest expense is health insurance, $1500 a month.
Now the not so lucky... I was T boned while in the company car in July 2004 and my pickup rolled over., after getting a new truck I was rear ended in Feb 2005. this second accident re injured my back surgery that was done in 1999 from another rear end accident. after seeing many doctors I was listed as disabled. I received disability for 12 months then that ran out. I was without any income for the next year, living only on the savings I had in the bank, I still had to pay my own health insurance during this time. I have to keep my health insurance as my wife has had 2 heart attacks and she is uninsurable. if we have a lapse in coverage she will never be able to get insurance again. the bills for each heart attack were over 150,000 each. so I must keep the insurance going.
finally in 2007 I received a insurance settlement, I could have gotten more if I had taken it to court, but I was running out of $ fast and the case would have taken at least another year to happen and you never know what judges will do. so I took the settlement. after paying the lawyer and having to set up a medical set aside account to pay for future back medical bills so medicare will cover me when I'm 62 there isn't a lot left. I haven't had any other income since march 2007. luckily other than the $1500 a month for medical insurance my bills are low.
in my option we need to get the insurance companies out of the health care business. Why should they make a profit on my health. that just sucks. none of the candidates have a good plan for health care. there's a great health care plan in congress but they won't bring it to vote.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:H.R.676:@@@L&summ2=m&
also we are running the country into the toilet by borrowing from China to pay for the national dept. We are borrowing 2 billion a day from them.
http://zfacts.com/p/318.html
I won't have any income until my disability case comes up. Right now I don't have a date scheduled yet. my lawyer says it won't be for at least another year before we even get a date and then ? how long after that before the date is. I get about 6 good hours a day after my morphine and 4 other pain killers start working. I have to pay for them myself as per disability rules. my meds run about $1000 per month.
have a nice day.
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Expert
Posts: 3155
Location: NY & VT | Garry is right! - the insurance companies should not be allowed in health care - most people don't realize they were not allowed to make ANY profit off of healthcare until as recently as the 1970s-80s! Managed care and for-profit healthcare have been a disaster, and this jury rigged system that we have now is headed for a catastrophe, with huge extortionate costs, and huge numbers of people not covered, and even those who think they are"covered", not really so - more bankruptcies in the US are because of medical expenses than ANY OTHER CAUSE!! Small Business cannot afford decent plans for employees any longer, and Big Company policies cover less and copays and monthly fees cost more every year. My wife practices Internal Medicine and you wouldn't believe the stories of people going without any treatment because they can't afford it, or using the ER, very expensive & inefficient, out of sheer desperation. In NO other industrialized (civilized?) country are people allowed to go WITHOUT treatment for a lack of funds!!!... All we need to do is fund properly and extend Medicare, a very good system - cost of all administrative overhead is only 3% - to everyone!!! And it is NOT "socialized medicine" as some would have you believe - in Medicare you go to YOUR CHOICE of provider! It is one Goverment run Insurance program that is far more successful and efficient than ANY private insurance...the cost of PROFIT and Administrative Overhead in any Privately Insured sytem IS 22-28%!!!!!!!! with cost inflation 13-15% annually!!!! And NOT because of litigation, which is LESS than 1% - that is a total canard ...but because, among other things, our bought and paid for corporate controlled CONGRESS made it ILLEGAL to negotiate with Big Pharma for low cost drugs, thanks to one of the biggest lobbying campaigns in the history of any industry, (just who is lobbying for WE, the people?!), ADDED to the obscene PROFIT margin (above) that shareholder owned Pharma companies must show Wall Street!! The highest profit of ANY industry in the US!!! Higher profit % than Exxon!!! And don't buy the drug development cost lie - IT"S NOT R & D COST, they spend MORE ON MARKETING than on R & D!!!!! Medicare is NOT BEING FUNDED properly for the future by our many (not all) corrupt, cowardly, and bought-off politicians...Taiwan was smart ! - they recently looked at EVERY healthcare system in the world, and then chose the best features from all of them!! We now spend far more on heathcare as % of GDP than ANY country!!! And 40 MILLION PEOPLE, mostly children, go totally without insurance!! while 100+ million are inadequately covered... just get cancer and see what's covered, and what your costs are... Why can't we do this!!!?? We spend WAY more than Taiwan, where they get some of the best care in the world, and everyone's covered. If you think that Food and Fuel costs are a major problem in your budget right now... JUST WAIT!!!!! 
Edited by firedome 2008-05-01 12:14 PM
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Expert
Posts: 2244
Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | Well, as much as I hate big Govt, I do agree with you about your Medicare Proposal, if it can continue to be run as effieicently as it now is---Govt is not generally know for efficient operation. But your point about the insurance companies runninour health care system is "Right On" and like ya said , It ain't working.
I had a chest xray by my Doctor, $90, then a year or 2 ago I had to go to the Emergency room at local Hosp.
They wanted to take Chest Xray---I said My Doc just took one, get that one---they said NO, "Our policy is We take Chest Xray. They charged $900 for the xray. I actually received about 30 minutes of attention from an actual Human, during the 5 hours I was there----They were "too busy", to sign me out earlier. That bill was 10 Grand, what a ripoff.
Later I talked to my Doc about it, How come $900 for a Chest Xray, and I was charged about $20,000 per hour, for their services---recall Human saw me for 30 Minutes.
Doc told me they charge that, cause you are not just paying for your own health services, The hospital is charging you (Or insurance in this case), for 5 other people besides yourself, who have no medical coverage--insurance or otherwise, and the Hopsital in not allowed to refuse medical treatment to these people----suspects many were at one time, or still are "Illegals"
Since we now have both Political Parties , doing "Anything" to get the Latino vote, We certainly won't see this any changes on who is and who isnt covered by insurance and as you mentioned, Employers are paying for less and less Medical insurance and or benefits.
So I figure, as Long as we paying for our health care, and 5 others , like my Doc said, Might as well let the govt do it, why add the insurance company Profits and the freakin idiots they hire as "Experts" as to what should be covered or not!!!
One thing I should point out thou, assuming you or your insurance company has the money to pay it, We do have the finest Health care in the World, Tons of Canadians come over and pay xtra to be treated here---why? they can wait for months and months for treatment there, UK is the same way, in fact I have a friend dying of cancer there------but they too busy to get to her Yet
So I like your idea, but I hope we can do that and keep the Quality Factor and Expediency in our Health coverage too. |
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Expert
Posts: 3895
Location: Northen Virginia | guys your reply are really long.......make it short....and simple |
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Expert
Posts: 3155
Location: NY & VT | The expediency factor is not nearly as bad as usually portrayed - there was a most excellent piece on this in a recent JAMA... I read the wife's copy. In almost all cases it's elective surgery that may be delayed... those stories of people dying waiting are almost entirely apocryphal, mostly urban legend. The delays we hear about were largely based on data on those sysytems performance of 10-15 yrs ago And much of the delay has been reduced - GB used to have a problem, but it has been almost entirely eliminated for even elective surgery. Folks need to remember - much of the negative that we hear is propaganda spread by the insuurance companies - they don't want to lose the very lucrative business! Remember Harry and Louise? I lived only 30 miles from Canada for 8 yrs, and I never heard a Canadian who was unhappy, overall - you will always have gripes about even the best heatlh care, it is administered by humans after all - with their totally free system. Additionally, while quality of care here IS among the best in the world for those with top of the line insurance (not many), some of the single payer Euro countries are technology-wise just as good, and in some cases are ahead in certain treatment technologies. For ex: partial knee replacement was invented in Europe and came here 10 yrs later. I could cite quite a few similars.
This is my point - we shouldn't blindly diss anything just "because" it is done by the government... we forget sometime - government is US! Our representatives are put there by US! If they don't DO their job, one of which is to monitor how the government agencies do the things it does FOR us, ie: that which cannot be done by an individual or smaller groups - we can't raise an army, we can't regulate banks, or stop pollution, or run a space program, impartially fund medical research - if they screw up, don't sit there & complain, vote them out!! For example: a lack of regulation of imported products, due to a lack of funding by Congress, has led to selling defective Chinese products we've heard about - even pharmaceuticals that are sold under US companies' trade names and have killed people!! Some dialysis drugs for example manuf. for US companies by Chinese Co's under contract!. Fundng properly these regulatory agencies is important to everyone! Gov't SHOULD be criticized, when it is merited, which isn't rare...we've all heard horror stories, the $900 toilet seats, of waste and ineffciency. But there ARE things only gov't on that scale can do, and we should give credit where it is due, gov't programs that are well run and do important jobs. Medicare is one excellent example, and it could form a basis for a sane Health care system in this country. Because what we have now is beyond any rational comprehesion, and it is hurting individuals, US small business, and US big business (Toyota has NO health care costs in Japan), and the lack of reasonable health care for all could hurt us FAR more in the long run than the gasoline prices that are hurting us so painfully now.
Edited by firedome 2008-05-01 5:10 PM
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| firedome - 2008-05-01 5:03 PM
The expediency factor is not nearly as bad as usually portrayed - there was a most excellent piece on this in a recent JAMA... I read the wife's copy. In almost all cases it's elective surgery that may be delayed... those stories of people dying waiting are almost entirely apocryphal, mostly urban legend. The delays we hear about were largely based on data on those sysytems performance of 10-15 yrs ago And much of the delay has been reduced.
Ever seen the Michael Moore film, "SICKO"?
My wife (who graduates Nursing School this weekend) had to watch that movie and write a reaction paper...
At best, this film can be viewed as mere political propoganda... but at worst, it presents a thought-provoking case in favor of socialized medicine.
Regardless of Moore's controversial reputation, this film WILL make you think about some things that may be wrong with the USA.
-NM |
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Posts: 3155
Location: NY & VT | Agreed Nathan, he can be polemical, but he forces people to think, and that's something there's all too little of these days...
RE: cost of living, we don't eat it, but has anyone priced auto paint lately??? |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | ACTUALLY: health care "coverage" (if you'll excuse the term) is NOT provided by 'insurance' companies, and health care
'coverage' is NOT "insurance", per se.
"Insurance" is a contractual policy-agreement, where the stipulation is to make a person, or a loss "whole" , or to return a
property to its pre-loss condition.
Health care 'coverage' involves ANNUAL deductibles being applied onto the same infirmity, with recurring annual co-payments
of medical expenses. The multiple deductibles and co-pays and limitations on medical-providers, and medical-cost/expense
limitations, take health care "coverage" AWAY from the definitions of real insurance-coverage.
We should all be so lucky, as to have real health "insurance" (and at a reasonable cost).
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 663
Location: Oakley, Ill | The cost of healthcare didn;t start out stripping the cost of everything else until the government decide to get into it and "fix" everything. When you go see a doctor, do you ask how much this is going to cost? Do insist on an answer? How about when you go buy anthing else? Do you ask how much it is before you buy it? When you go buy just about anything else except medical care, you pay for it with your bucks, so you ask how much it is and shop around a little, because you are paying for it, and the sellers have to keep their prices in line with what the customers can afford. With insureanceand government paying for it, (Government pays for almost 1/2 the medical bills now), how many of you have ever asked how much it will cost. You have 4 parties involved in the cost, 2 of whom could actually care less--the customer--you- and the supplier--the Doctor. The insurance company cares abouthow much it costs, because they have to get it from who ever buys the insurance--usually the employer, since it is tax deductable for him, but not for individuals.
The 40 million uninsured is a hoked up number. It counts everyone who goes even one day without coverage--like if you end a job on Friday, and go to a new one on Monday, you and your family become part of the "uninsured" statistic. Illegal aliens are also counted, as all of them being uninsured. I have no idea why "they" "know" how many illegals there are, but can't do anything about them. There are young healthy people who roll the dice and do not buy insurance because they figure that they are invincible anyway, and besides they need the money for other things. They also count people on the dole that use a green card for medical care. Just because you do not have insurance, does not mean you can't be treated. Emergency rooms are required by law to treat everyone, whether they can pay, or not.
I know a guy who is a member of the Board of Directors for a local hospital. He says that if the government paid the same price as everyone else, they'd drop the price by at least 40%. Then if the government actually did pay, they'd drop it another 15 or 20% for everyone. About 10% of the office staff of a hospital is involved in compliance with government mandates and rules. Another 5% are involved with justifying to the regulators what treatments they administer. All of the various doctors have the exact same compliance nightmares, but unless they join together in a joint practice, they have to foot the whole compliance bill themselves. Then there are the things the lawyers do. About 15% of your bill is due to them running extra tests to cover their butts so the lawyers have to work harder to find something to sue them about.
I agree that our medical system is in trouble, but adding more government to it sure is not the answer.The VA hosital in Marion Ill shut down surgery for several months because they were killing too many people during relatively minor operations. They discovered that one of the doctors had his license to practice revoked several years ago, but he continued to work for the VA anyway. |
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Expert
Posts: 3155
Location: NY & VT | BS.. what is your data base? cost escalation started when restrictions were removed from for-profit insurance companies allowing them to "participate" in the health care "market" and all of the regulations lifted, and the "Blues" were subsequently undermined - go look at the health care cost data from the '50s to '80s. You can ask "what it costs" all you want - So you're denying the average 25% proift/admin expense vs 3% for Mediacre? Go look it up! So you think you'll get the same procedure for less - where?? Gonna get Big Pharma to reduce the price of your Lipitor?? Fix your liver at Transplants R Us??? It's all about wasting resources by keeping 80 yr old smokers alive, and diabetics who don't follow their diets alive, and Hail Mary cancer surgeries on 90 yr olds, that is what is pushing up costs, a lack of true triage in rationing scarce heatlh care resources, better used for people whose employers don't bother to insure them, along with greedy levels of profit taking by Big Pharma and the insurance companies, both of which are the primary roadblocks to a decent healthcare system in this country. Why do you think 65% of Physicians - and my wife is one - now support single payer health care?? They are on the frontlines, and they see the devastaton of familes caused by our disfunctional "system". See the JAMA article. Health care should NOT be a business, and it is NOT improved by "free market competition" as free market fundamentalists would have you believe - you want your bypass done by the lowest bidder? - you go right ahead. Meanwhile, read JAMA, or the New England Journal of Medicine, or the Bloomberg (yes, that Bloomberg, a biz guy) Johns Hopkins School of Public Health Policy Review, and not Forbes or the Wall Street Journal, to see what people who actually know what they are talking about regarding Public Health policy have to say.
Edited by firedome 2008-05-01 9:02 PM
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Veteran
Posts: 155
Location: Hellertown, PA | It cost more to live most of everywhere in Europe, fuel is really much more expensive, around $9.00 a gallon , taxes are higher, average income lower.
I am French and moved to live in america 4 years ago, i can tell that there is a big difference |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1172
Location: bradenton florida | ok . I take my wife to the ER at the hospital with a heart attack. hey doctor "HOW MUCH TO GET HER HEART STARTED?" HOW MUCH? THATS TOO MUCH I'LL TRY THE HOSPITAL DOWN THE STREET. i can ask the doctors all i want "how much" and it isn't going to make any difference they charge what ever they want. you don't like it too bad. as for the bad doctor in your VA clinic. there are lots of bad doctors everywhere the VA dosen't have the corner on them. in florida they find a guy doing surgery in a different hospital every week, some never went to any schooling , no training. they just put a white coat on and walk into the er and started treating people. in st petersburg a real doctor cut the wrong leg of a guy. and there bad mechanics and policeman bad cooks bad bank managers and even bad presidents. if you don't like the way our government does things then you should start looking for another country with a better government. it's not the government thats the problem it's the greedy business. exxon BP the pharma co. the health insurance co's that want to make $$$$ on the backs of the poor and sick. |
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Expert
Posts: 2338
Location: central oklahoma! | my cure for health care costs is to outlaw the sale of health insurance. no socialized medicine, either. let the people generating these fictional bills (starting with the $27 aspirin) look the S*O*B in the face who's actually going to pay the bill (or not), and see how long it takes to weed the c*r*a*p out of the system. in 1948, your doctor not only knew what your name was, he would come to your house and help you. he got paid by the patient, and both lived a good life. since then, we have added millionaires to the process who don't add a single bit of value that i can see. dadgummit, don't go political on me now....:wince: |
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Veteran
Posts: 186
| In 2001, $ 0.84 bought you one Euro.
Today, It'll take $ 1.55 for that same Euro.
I bought a 63 Chrysler last saturday, the seller wants me to pay him in Euro's...and there's a 3 month waiting list to put the car on a boat...
Good news for exporting US manufacturers like Caterpillar and so on; their products are 40 % cheaper now!
US cars arrive here by the boatloads, never seen so many new Dodge trucks, Chryslers, new speedboats, lawnmowers...
Any number divided by 1.6 is a low number....
And the cars that I can afford, are in the same price range that people who suffer from the bad economy have to sell; the 3-8000 cars. Good for us, bad for you.
Edited by 56fireflite 2008-05-02 6:21 AM
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Expert
Posts: 3155
Location: NY & VT | Even the Loonie (Canadian dollar) is worth more than the greenback!! It's good to be on the other side of the pond if you're a FL buyer these days!! |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Thought for the day, as I hit the road, in Horrie, for my first 500 mile road trip, to SoCal, for Spring Fling
driving him with his new 2.76:1 rear end gearset:
ExxonMobil's FIRST quarter net-profit, is 10.9 BILLION dollars......
...and that amount was LESS than 'analysts' had expected...!
I'll report on his MPG , next week.
Edited by d500neil 2008-05-02 1:36 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1172
Location: bradenton florida | and then they go on the TV and say with a straight face "we don't see our profits as being excessive". would it kill them to only make 3 billion profit? |
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Expert
Posts: 3577
Location: Blythewood, SC | Angie and I are researching now for when we have to replace our Sunfire. Our criteria are in order of importance:
1. MPG
2. Longevity
3. Price
4. Comfort
Notice that "a nice car," "fun to drive," "I like this car" and "it is attractive" never enter into the picture at all.
We have narrowed the field to about five cars, and the Corolla is at the top of the short list. We have been thinking that since we drive so much, a hybrid may be smart for us. So, I researched the various hybrids, and the ugly-as-a-mud-fence Prius is the cheapest and most tested model out there.
So, I decided to crunch the numbers to find out if the Prius is a realistic option for us.
Here is the math:
Using the EPA estimated 45% city/55% hwy annual 15,000 miles per year and a fuel price of $3.51 per gallon, the Corolla costs ONLY $673 more per year to operate than the Prius. Now, take new price into account of $21,100 for the Prius and $17,150 for the Corolla. The difference is $3950. If you amortize that over an 8 year life of ownership (assuming it was bought new, and we killed it in 120,000 miles) then it costs $493.75 more per year to OWN the Prius, but it costs $179.25 LESS to own AND operate the Prius.
All of this is assuming new car purchase, base auto tranny model purchase, and that each car is only owned for 8 years.
Now here's where things get tricky:
Let's use the NADA value for a baseline retail value and use 2005 model year automatic tranny cars with 50,000 miles.
Corolla: $11,375
Prius: $18,375
Using the same EPA assumptions, the Prius costs $1143 annually and the Corolla costs $1816 using the 2005 year cars and data. Now we have a price difference of $7000. Amortized out over five years (since these are used cars that are already three years old) you get $1400 per year more to own the Prius. The Corolla costs $673 more to operate, BUT it costs $727 LESS to own AND operate the Corolla annually if it is bought used and kept over a 5 year span.
For perspective, that is enough money saved by owning a used Corolla over a used Prius to take the family on a cruise every two years.
To make the case for the Prius even more dire, there are plenty of Corolla's on Craig's List and E-Bay under $9000, and few if any Prius on the same sites under $18,000. All the Prius I could find under $17,000 were wrecked, very high mileage or had a Salvage title. (Searching in a 500 mile radius of Columbia, SC today)
So in the real world, We are much more likely to look for a deal on a used three year old Corolla that will cost slightly more to operate, but overall costs less to own and operate.
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Expert
Posts: 2011
Location: Ballwin, Missouri | When it comes time for us to buy a "different" ( notice I didn't say NEW ) car I'm seriously
looking into buying a one year old car from a leasing company. Our credit union is connected
with Enterprise Rental/Leasing and I can get a very good deal on a one year old car, still with
factory warranty remaining. Mom & Dad bought a Caravan back in 2000 an have had great
service from it. I haven't decided what brand it will be. I've got a couple of years to go
before I'll need to replace the car my wife is driving. It has 86,000+ miles on it now and the truck
I drive will either get parked or driven until the wheels fall off. |
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Expert
Posts: 1590
Location: Scottsdale, AZ | Here's my take: Folks who claim its the "left-wing wackos" should get some real facts and stop listening to talk radio hosts and right-wing talking points. Folks blaming the right-wing wackos need to do the same. Oil prices are up mainly because of commodity speculators. Oil companies could invest in updating current production facilities, but are short-term thinkers worried more about stock price and executive compensation. Besides, why update facilities when you can force maintenance and repair shut-downs every year to cut supply and further up the price of gas? And they will not invest any meaningful amount of money in alternative energy until the oil is used up, again, short-term thinking about current profits. That's why you won't see it anytime soon. The large energy companies will buy up any interesting alternative energy system so they can control them when the oil runs out. Health costs are up because the U.S. medical establishment is a "for-profit" institution rather than a "non-profit" institution as it was for many years. Nixon began killing it under massive pressure from insurance companies and Wall Street. My family pays about $11K a year for premiums on 3 of us, basic coverage and a semi-yearly premium increase and deductible increase. Also, here in the Southwest, uninsured folks are radically boosting costs at emergency rooms, leaving the rest of us to foot the bill. Nuclear production has mostly been a farce in this country. I grew up 12 miles from the Rancho Seca Nuclear Plant in NorCal. It was constantly shutting down for production and maintenace problems, which made it a cost non-effective for energy. Maybe we should talk to the French as they have been effectively been running nuclear plants for years. But how many of you want a nuclear plant in your backyard, that is another problem. I don't. Folks, as always, its all about money and greed and power. Both Dems and Repubs are scoundrels that cannot be trusted with anything except wanting everything in your wallet and a good chunk of your civil liberties. I think our founding fathers would be aghast at what we have become. |
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Expert
Posts: 2244
Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | Amen!!!! |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 663
Location: Oakley, Ill | The problems with costs of medical care and nuclear power are costs imposed by government "doing something". Look at the website freedomkeys.com/medicare to see a chart of how and when medical costs began to skyrocket. And a whole lot of other articles on the subjest, too. The chart begins back in the 1940s.
Nuclear power always was a political football, and when the movie CHINA SYNDROME hit just after Three Mile island, politicians pretty well shut down the US Nuclear Power Industry, although the NRC was beating them up pretty badly for years before that. I spent 8 years in teh Navy Nuclear Power field, and 10 more as an Authorized Nuclear Inpector with an N stasmp on my NB Commission. One problem with the cost of building the plants was they'd change the rules, so the plant under constructon would be required to tear out already completed systems, and reinstall them, often more than one time. Another problem was that State Utiity regulators would not let the companies add the plant to the rate base as they spent the money,like they could with coal or other conventional plants. The companies were allowed to borrow the money, pay interest, and add the total including interest to the rate base in 1 lump sum, which blasted the electric rates to the stratosphere. In conventional plant, if something goes wrong with a pump or something, you just start up the other one, and fix the one that is in need of repair. In a Nuclear Plant, even a non-nuclear component failure results in an incident report to the NRC, and frequently a demand to shut the whole place down, and tear all of the similar components apart for inspection by their team, who may or may not show up for a while. This is what results in frequent shutdowns for appreciable periods of time.
I do not know anything about Three Mile Island than didn't appeared in the paper. Based on my experience, that was either absolute total incompetence on the part of the whole operating staff, or intentional sabotage. Nuclear plants are designed to shut themselves down if the operators fail to move the rods as the fuel burns up. This is a constant process, not something done monthly. The total loss of electric power results in an instant shutdown of the reactor, which requires electric power to keep it operating, and the automatic emergency cooling system operating that requires no action on the part of anyone. |
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Veteran
Posts: 186
| Gas in the US so cheap, it hurts...
http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/01/news/international/usgas_price/inde...
cool reading! |
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Inactive by user's request
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada | "Oil prices are up mainly because of commodity speculators."
True.
"Oil companies could invest in updating current production facilities, but are short-term thinkers worried more about stock price and executive compensation."
This same thinking gutted the U.S. steel industry. We never learn.
"Health costs are up because the U.S. medical establishment is a 'for-profit' institution rather than a "non-profit" institution as it was for many years. Nixon began killing it under massive pressure from insurance companies and Wall Street. My family pays about $11K a year for premiums on 3 of us, basic coverage and a semi-yearly premium increase and deductible increase. Also, here in the Southwest, uninsured folks are radically boosting costs at emergency rooms, leaving the rest of us to foot the bill."
And emergency rooms are shutting down every year because of it.
"Nuclear production has mostly been a farce in this country."
Mostly. But the three commercial plants built by the utility where I grew up were reliable. But they came on line pre-Three Mile Island, before "panick-induced" regulations. Also, the company had an ingrained corporate culture of "Safety First", going back to its orgins in 1896.
"But how many of you want a nuclear plant in your backyard, that is another problem. I don't."
None of us do. They are building a national nuclear waste repository one hundred miles from my house and we have a major Air Force Base across the valley. Subdivisions are being built on top of illegal, undocumented waste dumps, which were considered "desert in the middle of nowhere" sixty years ago. Radiation is scary, so why not build plants on closed military reservations where the ground is too polluted for civilian development?
"Folks, as always, its all about money and greed and power. Both Dems and Repubs are scoundrels that cannot be trusted with anything except wanting everything in your wallet and a good chunk of your civil liberties."
Absoluetly.
"I think our founding fathers would be aghast at what we have become."
And probably not surprised, either. 
K. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1172
Location: bradenton florida | I was asked to go to TMI and help with the cleanup operation, but i turned them down.
I think we should all buy electric cars and recharge them with solar panels overnight so they will be all charged up in the morning when we need them. |
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Location: Parts Unknown | phins - 2008-05-05 12:10 PM
I think we should all buy electric cars and recharge them with solar panels overnight so they will be all charged up in the morning when we need them.
******************************
By this thinking, Seattle and Portland would not longer be viable places to live, so we could use those "no sun" areas as nuclear waste repositories ! .... something that seemed like a perfect answer to this 9 year old kid !  |
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Location: Parts Unknown |
Honestly, ... the problem of cost of living has been around forever, and recently come to a head at my house as well. Looks like I will be going back to school for a couple years in an attempt to take home a larger slice of the pie to spend on the ever increasing demands of doing the same things ! |
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Expert
Posts: 3155
Location: NY & VT | I don't think the FF would be at all surprised either - in fact some of them, at least, expected revolution on a fairly regular basis, whenever the people got sick of being screwed and decided to actually do something about it.
In Vermont there is a very active seccessionist movement called Second Vermont Republic (VT was an independent republic in the late 1700s, then the 14th state) that has become quite popular - some recent polls have pegged public support for it at around 15% of the state population, which is pretty amazing if you think about it. They have a website and were mentioned in Time recently.
Edited by firedome 2008-05-04 4:31 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1172
Location: bradenton florida | it's a joke, how can you recharge with solar panels at night?
Edited by phins 2008-05-04 11:26 PM
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Location: Parts Unknown | phins - 2008-05-05 8:26 PM
it's a joke, how can you recharge with solar panels at night?
No, .... subjecting oneself to 300+ days of rain or overcast a year is a joke. Why do you think I left ? ! |
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Todays Costs of Living
