|
|
Expert
Posts: 3588
   
Location: Plymouth Spaceport | I am curious as to the effectiveness of lead substitutes and if they are necessary or not.
I seen a few people here mention they don't use them and have never had any problems after years of driving,and have been told they aren't necessary as long as the car isn't driven hard and has a low compression engine.
So what's the truth? Anybody have any conclusive facts one way or the other?
|
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 184
Location: Canada | as far as I know, the stuff that's sold as lead substitute is not really lead at all... it's just unrefined oil (as in crude oil that's refined a little but not so much)... so I am not sure how effective they are as substitutes |
|
| |
|
Account Suspended
Posts: 2827
Location: At "The Rock" in upper East Tennessee | All I can say is that my more or less stock poly head runs better with it. Without it I notice a skip in her and hesitation at times she also seems to run a tad hotter. With it none of these are problems. That may not be an all conclusive fact but it is my experience. |
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 5139
Location: cornpatch county, Southwest IOA | For the past couple of years I have been using "GUNK" brand lead sustitute I have a Holley Street Avenger carb on it.. I also have periodic problems with the way it runs ( stalling, rough running- missing) I checked and re-checked everything and could not find The problem. Finally I put my hand over the choke plate after it had warmed up- to manually choke it and ravved the engine several times to really creat a vacume through the venturis I choked it down ttill it would barely run and then remove my hand frome the carb. It cleared right up. My conclusion: every time I had a problem, I had gone about 20 miles after putting in gas and everytime I would also put in some lead substitute. I do believe it was clogging up my idle circuit in the carb. Since I quit using it, the engine never stalls or miss a lick. I am considering adding a little of Marvel Mystery oil to the gas and see what happens.............................MO |
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 6203
Location: Big pimpin' | The reason all this came about was for the exhaust valve seats..It has been said that the exhaust valve seats get pounded on from the lack of lubrication from the lead that WAS in fuel....With that said, I took a set of the famous "915" heads to the local machine shop and he made a very good observation when I asked for hardened seats on the exhaust side....He stated that "D@mn Chaney, any new cast iron head doesn't come with steel hardened seats, so why would you think these heads need 'em? I mean, the new heads run on unleaded fuel right?" I thought about it, and came to the same conclusion...You don't NEED the hardened seats, but to be on the safe side, I'd run some sort of "Additive" to keep your piece of mind....I still run some every now and then.... |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 331
Location: Northern North Carolina | I had a big question about this as well, before having my 1957 Belvedere engine rebuilt. The consensus from more than a dozen old car buffs, gearheads, engine rebuilding shops, professional mechanics etc was pretty much "if you don't plan to drive your car much, or drive it hard, or pull a load, or drive in the mountains, you can probably get by without using lead substitute". That was a lot of "if's" to me....so I've been using lead substitute post-rebuild (I elected not to have the valve seats hardened). I can't recall which brand I use; lead substitute has gotten harder to find, but I buy the brand still readily available [so far] at Auto Zone. I also add it to every fill-up, in the '61 Fairlane.
...........
1956 Pontiac StarChief
1957 Plymouth Belvedere
1961 Ford Fairlane |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2612
Location: Parts Unknown | The valve seats are not hardened in my car - I run Cam 2 on occasion and the high octane at the pump mix . . .
Last time I bought an additive it was called Real Lead . . . Don't know if they still make it or not . . .
|
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 421
Location: N. Georgia | As far as those of you still running the old flathead six, the block in those engines is harder than the new 'hardened' valve seats. I rebuilt the engine in an old 37 Dodge about 4 years ago. The machinist told me that when doing the valve seats, most of them can be redone with a cutter, but the old Mopar flatheads require grinding as they will wreck a cutter! But I have no experience with the later V-8 engines. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3034
Location: N.W. Fla. | Hemis: The '55s have hardend valves & seats, post '55 300s & truck hemis did also. |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 184
Location: Canada | Mopar1 - 2010-06-21 11:13 AM
Hemis: The '55s have hardend valves & seats, post '55 300s & truck hemis did also.
what about the poly heads in 55 Chryslers? |
|
| |
|
Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | 56-57 Dodge engines do not have hardened valve seats in them; the Chryslers do have hardened seats in them.
When my car's heads were O/H'ed I had the stellite valve seats installed, altho there was no recession in the seat areas
when that upgrade work was done.
Now, I don't have to worry about including any particular gas additives, to protect the heads/valves.
Installing those hardened valve seats is a no-brainer, when/if a car's heads are being worked on.
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3399
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | Only the exhaust valves in the Hemis were hardened inserts. Which is ok, the intakes are really not an issue. |
|
| |
|
Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | ..And that is because the larger intake valves are naturally cooled by the incoming air-fuel mixture, while the
small exhaust valves have to deal with the heat and pressure of the burned air-fuel mixture.
Good point.
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2679
| Shep - 2010-06-21 7:24 PM
Only the exhaust valves in the Hemis were hardened inserts. Which is ok, the intakes are really not an issue.
I was told my an old machinist to use a lead additive if I didnt have hardened valve seats. Not needs for newer heads
with hardened seats.... I would use it, better safe than sorry. |
|
| |
|
Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Supposedly, an old-vintage car's cylinder heads have absorbed enough tetraethyl lead into its valve
seat areas, during its working life, in order to lubricate/shield those areas adequately, now that non-leaded gas is
being used.
Unless I was racing my car or subjecting it to heavy-duty usage, I wouldn't worry about adding lead-substitutes
to the gasoline---until an O/H might become necessary, due to the age-wear of the engine.
I would be concerned about the ignition timing and the octane/quality OF the gas that I was installing, however.
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3588
Location: Plymouth Spaceport | well,thanks for all the input.
That's interesting to learn the flathead six doesn't need hardened valve seats,I always assumed since it was such an old motor it probably wasn't using as modern engineering materials as the newer v8's.
I have used the cd2 "insteadalead" additive in the past,but had heard lead substitutes weren't necessary from a couple different collectors,so I figured I'd get the general consensus of my fellow forward look finatics.
I just bought a 57 belvedere with a 301 v8 that I plan to use for my daily driver.
Guess I'll use the lead substitute just to be on the safe side.
Edited by 1960DesotoAdventurer 2010-06-21 8:52 PM
|
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 5139
Location: cornpatch county, Southwest IOA | What about the valve guides? Where do they get their lubrication? Good stem seals should not let any oil reach them.......................................MO |
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | ya don't need lead added to the engines we use and with out any hokus pokus metal suckin up lead over the past and why our engines are pretty much bullit proof is due to one fact , HIGH NICKEL casting materials . plain and simple !---------------------------------later |
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 6203
Location: Big pimpin' | MOPAR-TO-YA - 2010-06-22 2:17 AM
What about the valve guides? Where do they get their lubrication? Good stem seals should not let any oil reach them.......................................MO
"Good" Valve seals let just enough oil get by as to where you don't see it out the pipe....Bad Valve seals let Too much oil by causing the oil smoke upon start up.....If there was no lubrication from the valve seals, the seals themselves, along with the guides, would completely wear out/and or freeze together in a VERY short time...Contrary to popular belief, Every engine on the planet burns a certain amount of oil, some just burn Excessive amount of oil....
Edited by dukeboy 2010-06-22 12:28 PM
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3575
Location: Netherlands | Everyone who's putting lead-subs in their tanks of their weekend-drivers are wasting their time and money.
Given the fact that most engines here haven't had a head-rebuild in years, by the time your exhaustvalves really start to wear and 'sink' into the seats due to the unleaded gas, the entire head needs to be rebuild aswell. During that rebuild hardened seats will (can) be installed.
Ever since lead started to disappear out of our local gas I've started to fuel up with unleaded.
The '65 Imperial 413 engine in my '62 stationwagen has never been apart sans for a new timing-set, and has been running without any problems since then. Used the wagen as a dailydriver for a number of years.
The motor is now getting a bit 'tired' these days and probably would like to be rebuilt, but I'm sure with the occasional outing it gets it will be able to drive effortly for another 10-15 years in this state.
Edited by BigBlockMopar 2010-06-22 12:53 PM
|
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | ahhhhhhhhh ,, i believe the first unleaded gas was used in 1923 in some of the very early v8's like chevrolet----------------don't point a finger , look it up-------------------------------------------------------------------later |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3034
Location: N.W. Fla. | 60 dart - 2010-06-22 2:00 PM
ahhhhhhhhh ,, i believe the first unleaded gas was used in 1923 in some of the very early v8's like chevrolet----------------don't point a finger , look it up-------------------------------------------------------------------later Poor recolection of leaded gas being invented by GM in late 30s or just after the War in the compression/octane development race. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3575
Location: Netherlands | I don't point fingers, I pull them... my own usually :D |
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 6203
Location: Big pimpin' | Holy sh*t, I had no idea Chevy hadda V8 in 1923?!
And All this time, I thought the first Chevy SB came out in 1955.....  |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1622
Location: Seville, OH | We haven't had an Engine Of The Day for a while, but the Chevrolet Series D V8 engine deserves some attention. 288 cubic inches, overhead valves, crossflow heads… and it was manufactured 38 years before the small-block Chevrolet engine. That's right, Chevrolet had an OHV V8, generating an excellent-for-its-time 55 horsepower, back in 1917! |
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | yes 1917-----------------------truck-----------------------------------------------------------------later |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 313
Location: New Jersey | I periodically put 100 octane low lead airplane gas in my cars (3-4 gallons at a time) just to keep the 'lead memory' alive. The cars love it, especially the hemis in the '56 and '57 Dodges. If I use too much the car will have a hard time starting. ---Fred |
|
| |
lead additives necessary or not?
