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Location: Las Vegas, Nevada | "Plan A" was to get an adapter made to mate a small block Chebby to my existing '59 Plymouth manual tranny. "Plan B" was to find a donor car with a 318-stick to transplant into my '59 Plymouth. I was e-mailed several leads on such parts. I wish to thank those you who sent them.
I appreciate the leads I was given on finding a V-8 set up for my '59 Plymouth, but so far, no replies to my e-mails. So now on to "plan C". I'll need a good '57-'61 318 crank and connecting rods. If it's from one of those zillions of '57-'61 automatic cars out there, no problem. My machinist can "drill" it out to accept a '59 pilot bushing and stick tranny input shaft. I can then build a later ("LA") 318 engine around this reciprocating assembly and use my car's existing bellhousing to keep it all Mopar. Apparently the flat head six bellhousing is the same as the '57-'59 318 bellhousing, which means it will fit a 273-318 block with little trouble. The existing flywheel will accept a ten inch clutch, so no problem there.
Am I overlooking anything?
K. |
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Location: Dalveen, Queensland, Australia | Whooa there!
I'm not going to be much help to you, but you've raised a very interesting question for me.
You say that "Apparently the flat head six bellhousing is the same as the '57-'59 318 bellhousing"... does that mean that the flat head six bellhousing bolts up to the wide block 318 Poly of the era including 1964?
If it does, I feel I could adapt it to the 4-speed New Process box we have, but for which we don't have a bellhousing. Those 3-speeders off the flatheads we can find, however.
By the way, there's a link somewhere, I think from the 62 to 65 site... yes at the top of this page, that mentions a wrecking yard with 25 acres of cars that's closing down... Richards... classiccar@rtmc.net was the e.mail address. Surely they'd have what you want? |
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Location: Las Vegas, Nevada | Hi Ray,
I don't know what was done with the export cars to Australia, but as for the U.S. models, this is the way I understand it to be...which may be wrong.
The crankshaft was changed starting in 1962. The '62 & up A and 64 & up "LA" bellhousing is supposed to match the '61 & down A engine bellhousing with the exception of the dowels and one bolt hole. The early Hemi, Poly engines and flat head sixes supposedly share the same bellhousing bolt pattern. The '59 passenger car parts manual lists the same bellhousing part number for both the six and 318. The '64 Poly crank has the same type of flange as the '64 & up 273 "LA" and '67 & up 318 "LA" engines, so you couldn't bolt a pre-'62 flywheel to it. Plus the '61 and down manual trannys used a different length input shaft.
Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong (thankfully, Chuck usually does!), but that would mean you'd also need a '61 or earlier 318 crank to use the pre-'61 three speed & flywheel. But you could use a newer "LA" bellhousing & flywheel on your '64 for your post-'61 four speed, as long as the front bearing retainer opening matches the front bearing retainer diameter on your four speed. Plus you'd need the correct clutch disk to match your tranny's input shaft splines. Plus Mopar went to the reduction gear starter on these engines around 1961-'62, so there would be flywheel/starter/bellhousing issues, too.
As I understand it, you could physically bolt the flat head six bellhousing to your '64 engine. But there would be issues with the transmission input shaft and a conflict with using the older starter with the newer flywheel your engine would require.
To further complicate matters, the slant six used a bellhousing unique to its family of engines! So you'd get no help trying to use one of those bellhousings.
The New Process three speed in my '59 is freshly rebuilt and is a very stout transmission. If I wanted to change to a newer tranny, driveshaft, differential and parking brake set up, this could be a "slam-dunk" as far as part acquisition goes. :)
K.
Edited by Kenny J. 2004-12-30 2:33 AM
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Location: United States | Hi Kenny,
Please allow me to add my .02 worth here. As I understand it, the only change in the crankshafts was an enlarging of the register flange.(I could be wrong) So all you need to do in order to use an old flywheel is to bore out the register hole in the flywheel to the new/larger crank size. Most machine shops could handle this. If you ever want to go back to the old style crank all you need to do is get a spacer to take up the difference in the register size. I am having to do this on my 64 Power Wagon. I am using a 73 225 (larger flange) with the original flywheel/4 speed. As far as the bellhousing question, try www.wilcap.com and look at the "new" section. I believe they have something for flathead 6's like adapting a flathead to a turbo 350 (Gross!!). They should be able to answer some questions though. Hope this helps.
Dan Bauer |
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Location: Dalveen, Queensland, Australia | That's all very interesting, Kenny J...
The starter sounds like it might be an issue, but here's the way I see it (if you don't mind me stealing your thread!)...
I think the 3-speed has a shorter input shaft and therefore shorter bellhousing length. It has a 4-bolt fixing to the 3-speed box, but it's a fairly small bolt pattern.
We could, therefore, bolt a plate of the appropriate thickness to the back of this, with the hole cut in the centre to locate on the outside of the 4-speed's bearing retainer and then we machine up a ring that fits into that and is stepped to spigot inside the 3-speed's bearing retainer hole.
Then we just drill and tap the holes to suit the 4-speed's bolt pattern, having countersunk the bolt heads for the 3-speed bellhousing bolts.
Clutch we can work out, the starter we'd fumble our way through somehow, even if it means using an earlier starter (from a '61 or something).
Should we take this path, then we wouldn't need to source a bellhousing from the USA, and we would overcome the lack of flywheel by getting one made with the savings. Or, if we acquire a '61 engine in our travels we could use its crank.
But this is only viable if what you've said here is correct. You've expressed the need for someone to confirm what you say, so I will await that. Anyway, it's another angle for us to pursue and I thank you for that.
And I just realised that we actually have a bellhousing off a flathead 6 box... now one more thing, has your box got the Borg-Warner overdrive?
I love those things, had one in an Austin once, set it up to run as a 6-speed clutchless (except for takeoff) box... t'was fun!
Edited by Ray Bell 2004-12-30 3:33 AM
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Location: Las Vegas, Nevada | Hi Dan,
Thanks for the input. I spoke with Wilcap about a week or so ago. I plan to take some pictures and measurements for them to see what they can do for bolting a later Mopar engine to my existing transmission.
Ray, I have an overdrive transmission out of a '58 (and a beat up '57 overdrive "parts" trasmission) I may wish to install in one of my Plymouths in the future. Also have a three speed/Borg-Warner overdrive transmission in a '59 Ch**y. They are kind of fun. 
K.
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Location: Dalveen, Queensland, Australia | Kenny J. - 2004-12-29 6:18 PM
.....Ray, I have an overdrive transmission out of a '58 (and a beat up '57 overdrive "parts" trasmission) I may wish to install in one of my Plymouths in the future. Also have a three speed/Borg-Warner overdrive transmission in a '59 Ch**y. They are kind of fun.
Glad to know there are others in this world with a sense of mechanical adventure and fun!
However, looking at your pic I get the impression that my recollection of the length of the input shaft of the flatheads might be sadly wanting. Would you mind giving me a measurement from the face of the box to both the engine end of the spline and the tip of the spigot?
If the bellhousing fits both engines I'd imagine that the crank protrusion from the back of the block must be the same.
Reviewing the further information about flywheels, do I conclude that the Slant 6 flywheel fits with a spacer ring?
This could be very interesting...
Edited by Ray Bell 2004-12-30 3:41 AM
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Inactive by user's request
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada | I checked my '59 parts book and it shows the same flywheel, starter and bellhousing for both the 230 flat head six and the 318 V-8.
I have been under the impression that the protrusion of the crank flange was longer for the pre-'62 engines. The bellhousing bolt pattern on the block itself could be the same, but the bellhousing itself my be a different length. Or a different design to accommodate the reduction gear starter. Plus the front bearing retainer opening or the bolt pattern of the post-1961 manual transmissions may be different. I believe (but again am not sure) the manual transmission input shafts were a different length after 1961.
I have several '57-'59 six cylinder manual transmissions, the two overdrive transmissions and a 1961 block block manual transmission, They all seem to have the same length input shafts. The 1961 transmission, however, has a much larger bearing retainer and I believe (I'll look at it when I take those measurements for you) the bolt pattern on the front of the transmission case is much larger than that of the 6/small block V-8 case. The entire transmission appears beefier than the others, but has a fine spline input shaft. That surprises me, as I associate the course spline input shaft with high performance cars and truck transmissions. Of course, there were fine spline manual transmissions for some big blocks throughout the 1960s and into the 1970s. But the 375 hp 440s and street Hemis seemed to have a course spline version of the A-833 four speed. I also have the original A-833 out of my long gone '68 Charger R/T. I could compare it's dimensions to the earlier three speeds I have.
K. |
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Location: Dalveen, Queensland, Australia | Well, so far this is all looking pretty promising to me...
Here's a pic of the gearbox housing, you're familiar with it, but just as a kind of reminder...
http://www.austarmetro.com.au/~raybell/gearboxhousing1204.jpg
It seems pretty big to me. Maybe they're the same bolt pattern too?
We have to work that out, I guess, but the input shaft length will determine a lot for us.
If the lengths are in the ball park, we can either machine more out of the counterbore in the bellhousing or make a locating ring if that's necessary. Seems we can use the early starter and flywheel with minimal adaptation, so it's all pretty good looking to me.
I await the measurements, and many thanks for your assistance. |
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Location: altoona pa, south central pa | hi, kenny. i have a good set of 301 rods and crank i dont know if the srtoke is different than the 318. the crank needs 1 rod journal cleaned up do to light surface rust. i also have every peice of this engine if you needed any thing else, including block , intake, exhaust manifolds, everything for a complete engine. if you or anyone else is interested in anyparts or the whole thing let me know. |
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Location: Dalveen, Queensland, Australia | The 301 shares the 3.91" bore of the 318... so the crank is shy on stroke (3.12" v. 3.21")... pity, isn't it?
I think I'd be happy with the 301, myself. Might rev a bit harder and breathe a bit better, and bored out .080 it'll be about a 313 anyway.
Then again, if the crank's good, a .030" grind with a .010" offset to it would give about a 303, then bore that .080 and you have something around a 315 with a slight increase in compression. If you're happy to use a smaller undersize bearing you can increase that further. For instance, a .020" addition to the throw gives pretty much a 318.
Maybe there are other differences in the cranks, perhaps lighter counterweights. But I don't think it would be a big deal. |
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Location: Dalveen, Queensland, Australia | Sorry, I hit submit twice...
At least you don't have to read my speculation a second time!
Edited by Ray Bell 2004-12-31 12:51 AM
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Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | KENNY you have done your research pretty well------only one question though------why would you use a later LA block to incompass the mods.------my thoughts are the earlier poly 318 has a much beefier cylinder cast-of course there is more weight but it would give you a broader range of CU IN. to choose from if needed for future reference-----as for the extra weight-a few easy mods. and the new hp. will take care of that but you have to remember with added hp. is added stress------i'm sure you know that already------the la might be just fine for your aplication but if it is because of parts availability-the poly parts are still easy to come by------HP.-LA VERSUS POLY------i would stick with the POLY BLOCK--------just my thoughts though-------------later |
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Location: central oklahoma! | hey kenny,
i'm trying to figure out how to make arrangements for the flathead. a 1500 mile adventure is kind of a big gulp, but i'm working on it. i didn't want you to think i was ignoring you. thanks, and have a great new year!!! |
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Location: Las Vegas, Nevada | why would you use a later LA block to incompass the mods.------
Simple logistics. I'd rather go with a Poly 318 or a 361/383, but there are no Poly 318s around here and no B/RB bellhousings and flywheels anywhere.
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Location: Denton , Texas | Just wanted to say thank you for showing me your wagon ,Sorry for the RAIN.Happy New Year ,I have found out about the crazy Las Vegas Drivers they are stupid...Kay |
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Location: Las Vegas, Nevada | Now if I went with an engine from '62 & up and acquired the appropriate bellhousing (and differential with parking brakes), it looks like I could attach my shifter linkage to one of these 1970s truck transmissions. But then there's the clutch linkage.
K.
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Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | KENNY you're doing a lot of good thinkin-havin a good parts stash sure helps to------i think you made a good choice gettin in touch with WILCAP------don't know a ton about them but do know enough to say that if these problems can be solved WILCAP should be the people to help------the only thing is they might be a little pricey------in your last post you said that the shift linkage may hook and the problem may be doin the clutch linkage------my thinkin is the shift linkage is goin to be the tough part and the clutch should be a lot easier but which ever way-i think i know you good enough to say you'll get it done OR know the reasons why not---------------------later |
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Location: Dalveen, Queensland, Australia | Gennelmen... I'm starting to have trouble understanding the issues here...
The purpose is to fit a jenyuwine Mopar Ben Tait into this car, right? And to do so, I would think, using as many standard parts as possible?
The 57-61 cranks are that hard to find? But isn't the only 'issue' with a later crank that you have to machine out the flywheel centre to match? And then you can use the flywheel and gearbox from a flathead six?
Are these bits likewise hard to find? I would have thought there'd be a reasonable stash of them somewhere in those United States. I know I can find them here in Oztraylya without much difficulty. Just yesterday I tripped over three or four flywheels, but they were on truck engines. A short distance away, I was told, there are several Chrysler Royals in a paddock... they are Aussie-revamped 57 Plymouths (close as I can work out) and came with a choice of the bigger flathead six with choice an overdrive box or an automatic or V8 (273, later 318, I think) with automatic trans only.
Not sold in huge numbers, but we have one complete 6-with-manual-box in stock (vehicle has recently had a V8 installed) and I have no doubt at all I can find others. |
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Wise Old Village Idiot
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Location: Dellslow, West ("By God") Virginia ! | Ray, any of those F'wheels, you tripped over, any of 'em a 8 hole B block? |
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Location: Dalveen, Queensland, Australia | All 8-hole, don't know if they fit B blocks though...
Roughly, they're on a crankshaft flange about 4" in diameter, maybe a little more. There seem to be bolts that go right through, 3/8" I think, or maybe 9/16" hex on 7/16" bolts?
The face of the flange is flat, no spigots, just the outer diameter to locate on and the bore in the centre for the spigot shaft.
This stuff is not going to be hard to find at all here. But it will be getting harder... the numbers sold here were not high at all, and most of the cars are now off the road. Our current level of scrap metal exports to China is high... put 2 and 2 together. |
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Wise Old Village Idiot
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Location: Dellslow, West ("By God") Virginia ! | Pre '62 had an 8 hole crank to F'wheel mounting. Post '62 has 6 holes.
I'm almost like Kenny. He needs a 8 hole B block f'wheel AND bell. All I need is an 8 hole B block f'wheel. I got an extra iron B block bell. But, have NO idea what kind of tranny goes behind it. Center and mounting holes don't match ANYthing I have measured up!
B block items are differnt than the poly stuff.
Manual tranny's got biefer in 1960.
The manual tranny was dropped mid year on the 350's All 350 three on the trees, were H-D 318 cop, taxi units. Wouldn't take the torque of the new B block.
OD's were NOT even available on the 350!
It was when MoPar came out withthe 361 cross ram in early '60 that they had a tranny HD enough to take the B block torque. That gold tranny looks like one of the '60 up units. |
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Location: Las Vegas, Nevada | 60 dart - 2005-01-01 10:33 AM
------in your last post you said that the shift linkage may hook and the problem may be doin the clutch linkage------my thinkin is the shift linkage is goin to be the tough part and the clutch should be a lot easier but which ever way-i think i know you good enough to say you'll get it done OR know the reasons why not---------------------later
Thanks, Chuck. As you can see, the black tranny is a '57-'59. The gold (or bronze) tranny below it is a '74-'78 truck three speed. It looks like the shift rods would line up with some adjustment. My concern is that the '57-'59 clutch rod won't attach with a '62 & up clutch fork if I used the newer tranny & bell housing.
I don't have a truck three speed from a '62 and up. I just downloaded these pix from the 'Net to show a comparison. I could buy that truck tranny for $45.00, but it would cost $130 to $180 to get it shipped from Ohio.  It is freshly rebuilt, however, and while I'm sure I could find one locally, it may cost even more and then need a rebuild.  I do have a Dana 60 from a '68 Charger, but it's a bit narrow for my '59. I also have an extra rear end out of a '72 B body, but it's from a 318 car and is probab;y too light duty for '62-'66 Poly or a B engine.
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Location: Ripon, WI | Kenny, I could probably find you a core 318, if you really wanted it. I have a full set of rods available for a 318, and once a set of heads I am getting redone is finished I will have a set of 43,000 mile original heads. Also have exhaust manifolds and an extra everything up to the valve covers. You can't have the block though! But seriously... if you want one, I could probably find you one.
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Location: Ripon, WI | Hey, you could try to see if anyone is traveling around the country that could swing through and pick it up and get it closer to you! |
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Location: Las Vegas, Nevada | safetymike77 - 2005-01-02 6:42 AM
Hey, you could try to see if anyone is traveling around the country that could swing through and pick it up and get it closer to you!
Thanks, Mike. But I am already having a tougher time than I thought I would trying to get a '68 Imperial hood from Pittsburgh to Las Vegas. Chris Suminski may be able to pick up my hood and get it as far as Detroit. That would make it easier for me as I have more connections in the Great Lakes region than in Western Pennsylvania.
I suppose I could get a '62 or newer Poly from somewhere in the Southwest and adapt the earlier crank to it. Remember, my goal is V-8 power while maintaining the three on the tree and NOT cannibalizing my 318/stick two door wagon I have stored away.
The four door wagon's registration is due next week and the insurance three days after that. I am considering taking it off the road for the time being and transferring my "KENNY J" plates to the '68 Imperial. That way, I can tinker with the wagon and see what I can do. Hank's got me thinking about hopping up the 230. As for the Imperial, I'd hate to drive an automatic transmission car every day, but all that Imperial comfort and a 440 under the hood may make the situation bearable. 
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Location: Las Vegas, Nevada | alumcanTandThd - 2005-01-01 6:54 PM
That gold tranny looks like one of the '60 up units.
It's a '74-'78 Dodge truck tranny. I asked the guy to measure the front bearing retainer to see if which bellhousing it will fit. I already have the 1961 version, complete with the parking brake on the tail! From a Plymouth with a 361. The guy I got it from left the bellhousing, etc. in the trunk when he sold the car and he has no idea what happened to it. I forgot what the story was, I think the guy's son started installing a newer (post-'61) B or RB engine and four speed in the car and lost interest. I think he had the engine/bellhousing/trans changed out and sold the car before completing it. Why the original three speed stayed behind, I dunno.
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: seattle, Wa. | ken,
please send me your current Email address..seems my message to you today was refused
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Wise Old Village Idiot
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Location: Dellslow, West ("By God") Virginia ! | Hey Num Nuts! That gold tranny you pictured is totally identical to the three on the tree uinit I pulled out of a '64 383 SF last winter.
That tranny is the 'beefier' unit they made for the B blocks in 1960, to replace the 'dinkey' 318 HD cop/taxi unit I was telling you about.
Do you still remember me telling you/others about those special promonital (failed) '61 thru '64 Chryslers? Ad campain was; "step up to a Chrysler for the price of a F0rd, Ch3vy, or Plymouth"
Base Windsor or Saratoga , (depending on year) taxi interior, rubber mat, NO nothing, with a 361 duce, and a three on the floor. They didn't sell that many, but they;re out there. Most people see the floor shift and a bench seat, and think some body did a backyard auto to stick conversion.
The linkage(s), coloumn to tranny, is VERY close between my existing 318 and that 383 SF!
The clutch linkage, from the arm to the throwout bearing fork, the adj part, is identical between both. The clutch fork is wider on the '64 than the '58 The hangey down part might be in a differnt location.
The clutch rod, from the pedal to the fork, I almost identical. can't really tell unless I get both side by side. |
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Location: Las Vegas, Nevada | Kenny J. - 2005-01-02 8:25 AM
alumcanTandThd - 2005-01-01 6:54 PM
That gold tranny looks like one of the '60 up units.
It's a '74-'78 Dodge truck tranny. I asked the guy to measure the front bearing retainer to see if which bellhousing it will fit. I already have the 1961 version, complete with the parking brake on the tail! From a Plymouth with a 361.
Take it easy, there, whiskers! Re-read my post. I agree with you, it's the beefier three speed you referred to, but I noted the one I have is from a '61 and has the transmission parking brake. This particular one pictured is from a '74-'78 truck, based on A.) the casting numbers, B.) the guy says it came from a Dodge truck and C.) few Mopar passenger cars built after '74 had three speed manual trannys. Some A bodies with slant sixes and 318s did for sure, but if any B or C bodies did, they are rare birds.
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Location: Dalveen, Queensland, Australia | How's it all coming along, Kenny? |
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On to Plan "C"
