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Location: The Republic of Texas | Does anyone make full length 392 headers that will fit '57-'58 Chryslers as a bolt on application? I've seen the ones offered by hothemiheads, but I don't know if they'll work without serious modifications. Also, if these wouldn't work, what about the "block hugger" headers? |
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Location: Colo Spgs | George
To make any headers effective please insure that you ...
1. keep The RPM's above 3,500 RPM's
2. Change to A Cam Shaft Spec'd for the weight of the car and to get the most Torque slightly above 3,500 RPM's
3. You should keep the Compression Ratio near 9:1 - to take advantage of today's fuel spec's and pricing.
Rodger & Gabby
Colo Spgs |
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Veteran
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Location: The Republic of Texas | Rodger - 2014-01-24 9:19 PM
George
To make any headers effective please insure that you ...
1. keep The RPM's above 3,500 RPM's
2. Change to A Cam Shaft Spec'd for the weight of the car and to get the most Torque slightly above 3,500 RPM's
3. You should keep the Compression Ratio near 9:1 - to take advantage of today's fuel spec's and pricing.
Rodger & Gabby
Colo Spgs
Thanks Rodger & Gabby. Would you happen to know of any header manufacturers that would have what I'm looking for? |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8948
  
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | this is what sanderson has to say :
Smaller diameter pipes flow less volume than larger ones, but the exhaust in the smaller pipe flows faster. Until you reach the RPM where the sheer volume of exhaust gases require bigger primary tube diameters, smaller tubes will scavenge the cylinders more efficiently. If you're using the engine in the 1,500 to 3,500 RPM range, which is typical for a street-driven vehicle, you definitely want 1-1/2" to 1-5/8" primary tubes for any small block and 1-3/4" to 1-7/8" for a big block engine. Any bigger and you'll lose a considerable amount of low end torque. beyond 3,500 RPM it is a question of where you want the power peaks. As you can see from the charts on this page, small tube headers do not lose their edge in horsepower and torque until you exceed 5,500 RPM.
Even if you're running a radical camshaft and blower, you're better off sizing your headers smaller rather than larger, unless you plan to do most of your driving at full throttle. The headers we build are sized correctly for even the most heavily modified street motors.
The second biggest controversy in header design is the "equal length" versus "shorty" styles - which is best? Like most performance products, there are advantages and disadvantages to both.
Exhaust headers with equal length tubes have been shown to develop slightly more power on an open exhaust system, but not when hooked up to a street system with mufflers. Fact is, most street motors with shorty headers will produce the same power as they would with expensive equal length headers.
Equal length tubes can produce more power, but they have to be the right length for the specific motor at the RPM range where you want the power. What that means is lots of custom fabrication and dyno testing, which translates into lots of time and money.
For racing applications, the slight gain may justify the cost, but competition cars can be more easily built "around the engine" than street cars. When you're working within the confines of a given body style and chassis, with motor mounts, starter, steering linkage and accessories to think about, the way the headers fit become more important.
That's where the compact or "shorty" style header shines. You get a significant performance increase compared to stock exhaust manifolds .
http://www.sandersonheaders.com/Lets-Get-Technical.html |
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Location: Under the X in Texas | GSP392, I presume you are asking about whether any headers fit while the 392 is in the original chassis. If that is correct, then yes, Chrysler did. The '55-56 big truck headers that Kiekhaefer had used on his race cars could not be continued in the new torsion bar chassis because without wedging the big block up and slightly on its side, they manifolds would not clear the power steering box nor clear the back leg of the upper control arm So Chrysler altered the truck headers, probably had them ready mid 1957 production, and then put them into the parts books and option list as the '58 high performance exhaust which included the headers and 2.5" full length pipes and appropriate sized mufflers and a cross-over balance pipe.
Your question would be how did they alter the truck manifolds to fit and clear? They recast these rams-horn looking manifolds with a slightly flattened pad on one horn of the manifold. On the left side that 'flat' cleared the steering. On the right that cleared the control arm leg.
I recast some of these manifolds some half-dozen years ago. Attaching a comparison photo of a Dodge truck 4-bolt manifold (like Kiekhaefer used) and one of the original Chrysler 4-bolts for the '57-58 program. The '57 399 code 300C stick shift race cars included this exhaust system standard. The '58 EFI 300Ds included this exhaust system standard.
Edited by StillOutThere 2014-01-25 9:20 AM
 (4BoltExh-1Flat.jpg)
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 4BoltExh-1Flat.jpg (59KB - 183 downloads)
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Posts: 2524
Location: Houston |
Exhaust systems are something very few people really know anything about, at least as far as they relate to the power output of an engine. I'll include myself in that group. I'll also include practically every aftermarket exhaust company selling mufflers and headers. What they know is limited to trial and error and what fits into their particular production capabilities and what they think will sell.
People love to theorize about exhaust more than any other part of the auto, and it's usually backed up by a very limited sample of testing - either a magazine article or seat of the pants.
Who does know something about exhaust systems? The engineers who work for large automakers who have comprehensive research and test facilities at their fingertips. But they don't share the important stuff.
But luckily the OP didn't ask any of us for our opinions as to what he should do....he just asked if anyone makes a header.
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Veteran
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Location: The Republic of Texas | I appreciate the replies. I'll do more research before I make a final decision. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 9699
Location: So. Cal | A quick answer to your question. I am not aware of any full length headers made for these cars. The Hot Heads headers are designed for '30's rods so it isn't likely to fit, but I haven't really looked into it. I put a 331 hemi into a '56 Plymouth and used shorty headers that I had to modify. Shorty headers dump out ahead of the steering linkage which forces you to run your exhaust underneath it. This creates a serious bump hazard if the front of your car is even reasonably close to the ground. So I am not happy with the setup. '57 Chevy big block headers look pretty close to what I need for my '56 chassis, so I am planning to get a set of those and modify them to make them work with the 331/392. You might be able to modify headers from a new 5.7L Charger or possibly a 426 hemi application and make them work for you, but the pipe spacing is not the same so it is certainly not ideal and not easy to do. |
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Location: Houston | Just noticed StillOutthere's post...interesting. It's especially interesting to me because my 58 Chrysler 354 uses the truck style manifolds as reproduced by Hot Heads. They do not have the flattened area for PS clearance. But, they are close to the box and I have been wondering how cars with the taller deck 392 would ever work. Now I know....but I also wonder why HH didn't account for this in the recast. I guess they are not building parts for the Chrysler-bodied market.
Edited by GregCon 2014-01-26 9:18 AM
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300 exhaust manifolds.JPG (134KB - 206 downloads)
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Expert 5K+
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Location: So. Cal | Those aren't cast by HotHeads. They just sell them - or at least they used to. They don't have any more of them. They were cast by John Forney and sold here & on ebay back in 2008.
http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=21250&...
Edited by Powerflite 2014-01-26 11:28 AM
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Location: Houston | dang...guess it's good I got a set while I could.
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Elite Veteran
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Location: STL, MO | On a 392 in a 58 Ply w/ps Wayne's manifold is about .250 away from the steering box. There is no way any as manufactured tube header would clear because none of them have as tight of a radius from the flange to the outside radii of the primary as his manifolds have. In Wayne's defense he never told me they would fit a Ply as he made them for the 300 guys and it is a very nice manifold, A doubled up square of asbestos wrap is wedged in that .250 gap and that keeps p/s fluid in the pump. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca |
Everybody seems to have an opinion on the merits of installing dedicated headers to a street driven car.
Here's an interesting "opinion" on the subject; be sure to read Urban Myth #4, on it.
I'm not as excited about creating headers on my car as I used to be, altho the 315 Dodge Truck manifolds are ones that
I would install...if I ever find a pair of them.
http://www.x-pipe.com/Scavenge.html
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Location: Houston | It might be my browser but that site doesn't give any information that I can see. But if their name is X-pipe....I put them in the class of yet another aftermarket company that doesn't know nearly as much as they would like you to believe. I've had two X-pipe cars and they are both non X-pipe now with better sound and no loss of power. |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: Perth Australia | You have to click on the boxes on the side, but it took some time to work on my puter
Anyway, I cant dispute their claims, as I have not tried their product, but, if it was my product and I wanted to make the cliams that they do (however well scientically explained), they should put certified dyno results up on their site, just like other people that have performance products do???
I am trying to think of the last (serious) normally aspirated race car I saw with std exhaust manifolds?
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Your operative words:....... (serious) normally aspirated race car I saw with std exhaust manifolds?
We be talking street operated passenger cars, not race cars.
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Expert
Posts: 2524
Location: Houston |
Explain this...my Lexus makes 387HP from 281 cubic inches, normally aspirated. It weighs over 4200lbs, and gets 26MPG. It was tested by C&D at 14.0 seconds in the 1/4, and is computer governed to 150MPH. It does all that with an exhaust system that is stone dead quiet. And no X-pipe, either. No gimmicks...just sound engineering and lots of R&D.
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Location: Netherlands | Wow... The '80s called and they want their X-pipe website back...! lol
Exhaust headers work on the same principle as longram intake manifolds do.
Factory cast iron manifolds have come a long way since the restrictive log-type manifolds of yesteryears.
Just compare a modern day Hemi's castiron exhaust manifold to, for instance, a '57 392 manifold... or something from the '60s or '70s for that matter. Today's cast manifolds have way better flowdesign.
In the 50s/60s/70s, installing a tube header exhaustsystem ment great improvements in engine torque and efficiency, and therefore, overal engine power.
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Expert 5K+
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Location: Perth Australia | d500neil - 2014-01-30 7:50 AM
Your operative words:....... (serious) normally aspirated race car I saw with std exhaust manifolds?
We be talking street operated passenger cars, not race cars.
What I am getting at Neil is that people chasing performance from their engines will put a set of headers on as the guys that race cars use headers and just putting a set of headers on an engine has been proven over and over to give a performance gain over the standard cast iron log type manifold.
I would be very surprised to see dyno results that show a standard cast iron manifold from the era of the engines in our cars getting better power and economy than a good set of headers, but I am all ears (so to speak) to seeing proof from a dyno (actually, a number of them).
Just to qualify my perspective on this a little, I have std manifolds on my car and have no intention to do anything different.
The reason for that is I dont believe the gains justify the trouble and expence of getting headers made for a street car, I am just saying that the claims made by that exhaust company would hold a lot more weight if they backed it up with proven dyno results.
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Location: DFW, TX | ttotired - 2014-01-30 7:17 AM
I would be very surprised to see dyno results that show a standard cast iron manifold from the era of the engines in our cars getting better power and economy than a good set of headers,
Power, not gonna happen. But Economy, maybe!
When exhaust pulses are given enough time to evacuate the manifold without building up excessive pressure, most iron manifolds are "okay" as far as performance goes. At low engine speeds and low exhaust gas volume, the difference between a manifold and a header is basically inconsequential.
There is another benefit to a cast manifold versus a tube header, and that is that the iron acts as an insulator. A hot passage does not absorb heat energy from the hot gas flowing through it, which allows the gas to pass through more efficiently. For that reason, once a manifold is up to temperature, it does a good job of passing gas - no pun intended. But a tube header will shed heat, which requires energy from the exhaust to reheat it, and that will rob some power. That is why they offer header wrap, to insulate those tubes.
I actually have a point here: For most low-rpm use, such as 99% of FL owners will subject their car to, iron manifolds are fine - even good.
To the OP, I'm not aware of any manufacturer making tube headers for our cars. I bet it has something to do with the complexity of seven different V8 engine families (354 Poly, 318, 325, 326, 350/383-B, 413/383-RB, 331/354, 392), plus six chassis that are all different from the firewall forward ('55-56, '57-59, '60-61 Dodge/Ply versus Chrysler/DeS), the various clutch linkage/pushbutton cable configurations, power versus manual steering boxes, etc. If you really want to make a hot rod, it's not too late to find a '55 Chevy!  
Edited by 57burb 2014-01-30 10:22 AM
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Expert 5K+
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Location: So. Cal | 57burb - 2014-01-30 7:19 AM
If you really want to make a hot rod, it's not too late to find a '55 Chevy! :cool:
But I would refute your claim that cast iron is a better insulator than steel. The thermal conductivity is actually a little higher for cast iron than it is for steel- but it depends on the exact composition of each. It is safe to say that they are approximately the same. Typically cast iron manifolds are thicker than headers so that is where you get your better insulation capability. However, the best of all worlds, in my opinion, is to make your own custom set of stainless headers out of thick 14 gauge tubes. Stainless is a much better insulator than steel or iron by a factor of 3:1 so you don't need it as thick to retain good insulation capability. And by making them from 14 gauge material, they will be just as quiet as iron manifolds. Even 16 gauge headers quieten them down considerably from the typical 18 gauge stuff. Stainless headers used to be pretty unheard of, but today they are relatively common in the aftermarket for newer makes. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1119
Location: STL, MO | If I could find a set of TTI/Dougs quality full length headers for my car, they would be on my car. I talked to Hedman about a set of Huslers like they did for Suddenly,they couldn't help me. My car noses over past 5 grand and you can really feel it in the exhaust, Not that it's a racecar by any means but I'd bet I could knock better than a half second off w/headers.
Edited by Handygun 2014-01-30 4:49 PM
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Location: Netherlands | Why not learn how to weld tubing and make your own set?
Or just do the mock up work and tackwelds with a header weldkit and let an experienced welder finish weld it.
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Location: STL, MO | Herman I know you have seen some of the pics of "headers" fabbed on this site. A certain set on a procharged 354 gold 57 Dodge comes to mind. If I could do work like that I'd just take the next step and get into brain surgery, lot more money in it. If I put manual steering on my car and moved my motor over to starboard a 1/4 inch I might be able to get a set of block huggers on there. The ones were the outboard primarys go under the inboards. The way things are looking I might pull the '92 and put my 91 360 that went with the 518 originally, into the 58. I picked up a 28 Ply 3 window that might be a new home for the old Hemi. |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: Perth Australia | Here are a couple of pics of my dodge
As you can see, I have all the room in the world on the left side, but the right side would be a challenge
 (poly 001.jpg)
 (poly 002.jpg)
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poly 001.jpg (95KB - 165 downloads)
poly 002.jpg (89KB - 191 downloads)
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Location: DFW, TX | I see the problem - your steering box is in the wrong place! |
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Location: northern germany | ttotired - 2014-01-30 6:28 PM
Here are a couple of pics of my dodge
As you can see, I have all the room in the world on the left side, but the right side would be a challenge
changing the steering box to where it belongs will solve your problem  |
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Expert
Posts: 3575
Location: Netherlands | Just de-offset the engine and you're done!
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8445
Location: Perth Australia | Our steering is on the RIGHT side
You guys just LEFT the sreering in the wrong place
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Expert
Posts: 3575
Location: Netherlands | Wait a minute... Looking at the photo again... Why is the brake junction block still on the left side of the car?
Does the driver do the steering and your passengers the braking in Aussieland???
Edited by BigBlockMopar 2014-01-31 10:18 AM
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Expert 5K+
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Location: So. Cal | I want to add that a lot (but not all) of the noise that comes from headers is the result of leaky flanges. Most manufacturers put the header on a large belt sander to flatten out the welds. That doesn't always result in a leak-free flange. Especially if it is made in China. I have a pair of those Chinese block huggers on the 331 hemi in my '56 Plymouth. It was really appalling how un-flat the mounting flange was for it, but they are made from thicker (I beleive 16 gauge) tubes so that was good. So I mounted it on a mill and cut the welds flat. I had to take off quite a bit of material to make it work, but I got it flat. As a result, my car sounds very quiet. You would think I had iron manifolds on it. |
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Veteran
Posts: 209
Location: The Republic of Texas | I called HotHemiHeads today and Bob said the headers they have most likely wouldn't work due to the torsion bars. |
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Expert
Posts: 3035
Location: N.W. Fla. | And think of the Aussies with the slanter slanting over on the steering, brakes, ect....I used to put headers on various cars but got tired of them rusting to pieces. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | I think that the 'short' answer is: headers are sexy and glamorous looking, but, they do not work to increase (significantly,
ok?)....either the MPG nor the MPH of a street driven car, over that of a full-race car, which operates at high RPM ranges,
and which requires a maximally effective exhaust system.
As an adjunct to the necessity of having properly 'tuned' headers is the fact that a 'race' engine will have a high
timing duration, where both the intake and the exhaust valves will be simultaneously opened for a considerable time,
at high (racing-) RPM.
Edited by d500neil 2014-02-06 6:23 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1352
Location: Springville, CA | "There is NO free lunch!" |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1119
Location: STL, MO | Eric @ Hot Heads has Sandersons in his 58 Ply but it's a 354H, He said he didn't have T bar issues. |
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Expert
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Location: N.W. Fla. | d500neil - 2014-02-06 5:18 PM
I think that the 'short' answer is: headers are sexy and glamorous looking, but, they do not work to increase (significantly,
ok?)....either the MPG nor the MPH of a street driven car, over that of a full-race car, which operates at high RPM ranges,
and which requires a maximally effective exhaust system.
As an adjunct to the necessity of having properly 'tuned' headers is the fact that a 'race' engine will have a high
timing duration, where both the intake and the exhaust valves will be simultaneously opened for a considerable time,
at high (racing-) RPM.
Best I recall, the rule of thumb was something like 5 or maybe 10 Hp with headers & about twice that with headers & dual ex system vs manifolds & a single ex system. I think 1 MPG increase with both. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Yeah, they're sexy looking, but so is a beautiful wife, who doesn't or can't keep house or cook 'good'.
Unless you are WOT-type racing, they're too expensive for what they provide (headers and a beauty-full spouse).
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Location: St George Queensland Australia | Just thought i might enlighten a few fellow forward look enthusiasts. The majority of right hand drive forward look vehicles that are on our planet where made in the good old USA by chrysler USA, then exported around the world. Even the one's that were converted to rhd elsewhere used American Chrysler made components for the conversion! It is sad that chrysler cut corners to save costs i imagine! but we could never alter them as the purists are always complaining and stating that forward look cars should never be altered from how they came from the factory. Whether you like it or not, these chrysler factory made vehicles should be given the same respect as the left hand drive one's .Members here are well into the rarity of forward look vehicles, most of the right hand drive fwdlk cars are some of the rarest one's on the planet. I have one of the two factory made rhd 58'plymouth custom surburbans that were sold into Australia! In my opinion though some of the cars converted by fellow members here have done a better job than mother Chrysler! ie Earlee Bob as one. |
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Location: N.W. Fla. | mopark - 2014-04-09 7:38 PM
Just thought i might enlighten a few fellow forward look enthusiasts. The majority of right hand drive forward look vehicles that are on our planet where made in the good old USA by chrysler USA, then exported around the world. Even the one's that were converted to rhd elsewhere used American Chrysler made components for the conversion! It is sad that chrysler cut corners to save costs i imagine! but we could never alter them as the purists are always complaining and stating that forward look cars should never be altered from how they came from the factory. Whether you like it or not, these chrysler factory made vehicles should be given the same respect as the left hand drive one's .Members here are well into the rarity of forward look vehicles, most of the right hand drive fwdlk cars are some of the rarest one's on the planet. I have one of the two factory made rhd 58'plymouth custom surburbans that were sold into Australia! In my opinion though some of the cars converted by fellow members here have done a better job than mother Chrysler! ie Earlee Bob as one. |
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Location: St George Queensland Australia | Perhaps you are right! I thought i read on this forum that many Chrysler cars were made in the USA and then transported to Canada for export. Somebody here will certainly correct me if i am wrong ! The main point i was trying to make was " rhd fwdlk vehicles were made in a chrysler factory! not under a tree in some other country other than the USA" |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8445
Location: Perth Australia | The litte quirky differences I have found during the rebuilding of my dodge confirms to me that (at least with the 60 dodge) that it was built in Aus, using US made components, but pretty much as a kit car.
Some of the differences have been (I cant remember them all) heater/firewall (the panel that covers where the heater goes is not removeable and is welded under the panel that makes the top of the cowl), the contoured section of the firewall for the brake pedal ect to mount on is on both sides of the car (so an extra peice is added), E brake is the "T" handle type, not the foot opperated one, Different welding methods used in various areas, Larger recess for the rear licence plate and associated mods to suit it, theres actually quite a lot thats simmilar, but not quite the same as the US ones and one of the reasons that I bought a factory R/H/D car in the first place was to see how the Australian factory handled the left to right convesion, so I can see if its feasable to apply the same techniques to converting (properly) my plymouth to R/H/D or to take it back to L/H/D (its had a dodgey conversion already by someone)
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Location: St George Queensland Australia | Does your phoenix have a Harden and Johnston Sydney Australia Tag and ID number tag. They were a company that used to convert and sell mopars here in Australia. |
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392 Headers
