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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1110
 
Location: Tulare Ca | Hey All! I recently have developed a strange "problem" that i cant quite Pin. about aweek ago her charging systems worked beautifully. but taking her out for a couple test drives yesterday and today i noticed that it took a much high rpm than before to get her to charge. while sitting in neutral revving the engin it used to only take about 1/4 throttle to have her charge now its more like 3/4 throttle (im not good at gauging rpms). i adjusted the belt thinking MAYBE that might help but it didnt help. any Ideas? thanks! |
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Expert
Posts: 3399
 
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | You need to check for full gen output per shop manual or get a volt meter on the battery, ground the field at the generator and see if it goes to 15v just off idle. Post back. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 524
Location: West Jordan | What are we talking about? Stock generator or worthless POS trailer queen one wire alternator? If gen and your gen light is not on, problem in gen, time to rebuild. If one wire, it is a bad design, your regulator is failing and you need a real alternator. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8443
Location: Perth Australia | Assuming a genny, I will guess that its worn out brushes or a stuck brush, but better to test the entire system (as stated above) as there
is no hard and fast thing that is the only cause.
If it is as I am guessing, best to get the genny rebuit (if you want to stay with it) or if you do it yourself, see if you can get someone (that knows what they are doing) to machine the commutator on the armature.
It will be worn and it will be out of round and could be worn to the point of needing to be undercut.
This is a sooner rather than later job as well, because (if I am right), worn out brushes can cause the RCR contacts in the regulator to fail.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 524
Location: West Jordan | It probably has an inspection window on the back, you can see the com and brushes. |
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Expert
Posts: 3399
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | rushpowersystems - 2014-04-10 11:41 AM
What are we talking about? Stock generator or worthless POS trailer queen one wire alternator? If gen and your gen light is not on, problem in gen, time to rebuild. If one wire, it is a bad design, your regulator is failing and you need a real alternator. What gen lite. it has a gage, number one, number two how about some diagnostics before just diving in and replacing parts? |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 524
Location: West Jordan | Shep - 2014-04-10 5:47 PM rushpowersystems - 2014-04-10 11:41 AM What are we talking about? Stock generator or worthless POS trailer queen one wire alternator? If gen and your gen light is not on, problem in gen, time to rebuild. If one wire, it is a bad design, your regulator is failing and you need a real alternator. What gen lite. it has a gage, number one, number two how about some diagnostics before just diving in and replacing parts? 1) if it has a gauge then why are we discussing this, look at the gauge. 2) Nearly 30 years of building stock, custom, and high amp alternators and generators, that’s why! |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 444
Location: North of the 49th | Hi
My 2 cents worth but Exactly the same symptoms as with my '58 (stock generator)...cleaned commutator and installed new brushes all is well...
Edited by grunau 2014-04-11 7:46 AM
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Expert
Posts: 3399
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | I am referring to the diagnostic procedure to pin down the gen, reg or wiring as the root cause, I also have been doing this for more than 30 years, this isn't rocket science , I am merely referring to the industry wide practice at checking things out first. I think we are all pointing to the same conclusion here, we may differ some on how to get there. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 524
Location: West Jordan | Sorry I am calling BS, if you had done auto electrical for more than one year you would know that higher RPM charging is generator. There is no way the symptoms he described would be the result of wiring or regulator. Unless you want to make the case that wind blowing across the regulator caused it to cool down, so it compresses to the point that it starts working. I am not really interested in wasting time, OP pull the generator, inspect and repair as needed. |
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Expert
Posts: 3399
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | Again and for the last time regarding the "BS" issue, it takes 5 minutes to go thru the preliminary checks before diving in, what is the problem with performing some on car diagnostics, particularly for a dyer? BTW if you want to compare backrounds I will be glad to post what mine are, this is not what this should be all about. Agreed on weak gen output based on having to get to a higher rpm to see any charge rate. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 524
Location: West Jordan | Speaking of wasting time, fine, OP, do some preliminary checks, check the tire pressure, check the oil, hell check the blinker fluid. When you have checked everything, pull and repair the generator. Happy now? |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Posts: 13053
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | I actually enjoyed this verbal fight - now pull the generator and fix it  |
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Expert
Posts: 3399
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | Now you are just being a wise guy, no one suggested that crap!! I am sure we are both done here, sorry to all on this thread that I steered off course.
Edited by Shep 2014-04-11 12:15 PM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 524
Location: West Jordan | last word!
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1110
Location: Tulare Ca | Wow That Escalated Really Quickly. Now im pretty sorry i didnt list what i had in the first place. i have a stock genny with both a guage and gen light. As the genny charges ( or did) the light fades out telling me its charging, which is matched by the amp draw/charge balance on the guage. ill pull the genny clean the com and report back. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1110
Location: Tulare Ca | Alright pulled the genny today, clean the com end head where it contacts the brushes and put her back in. its still only reading about 5 volts at 1\3-1\2 throttle. any further suggestions?
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8443
Location: Perth Australia | Where are you taking the measurement from?
If off the genny, which terminals?
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1110
Location: Tulare Ca | Getting my measument on the genny itself. positive lead on the arm lead and neg on the ground
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8443
Location: Perth Australia | Do you have the wires connected to the genny or not?
If not, you need to connect themso the field circuit will work
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Expert
Posts: 2244
Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | measure the voltage at the battery terminals
Gary |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 524
Location: West Jordan | Save yourself a bunch of trouble, phonebook or Google your local alternator rebuilder, make sure they have a growler, take the generator to them and have them test and inspect. Unless your belt or pulley is loose, it is in your gen, most likely armature. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1110
Location: Tulare Ca | ttotired - 2014-04-13 3:09 PM
Do you have the wires connected to the genny or not?
If not, you need to connect them so the field circuit will work
Yes They are connected and it is correctly polarized. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8443
Location: Perth Australia | OK, what you can do is to dis connect the wires again (you can leave the earth (neg) wire on, remove the belt and get a couple of jumper wires handy.
What we are going to do is "motor" the generator.
Again, make sure the belt is off, otherwise your going to try and turn the engine over with the genny and it wont like that and you might burn up your jump wire, your hand the armature ect, I think you get the picture.
So connect a wire from the pos on the battery, but dont connect the other end yet, connect another wire to the field terminal on the genny, the other end connect to the D+ terminal on the genny, now when you touch the wire thats connected to the battery positve, it should make the genny spin (motor), it it doesnt, either your battery is flat or the genny is faulty.
Make 100% sure you do these wires correctly or you could re polarise the genny.
This is a rough bush test for the genny.
As Darren mentioned (sort of), the fault can still be in the armature.
A growler is a tool that is used to test for short circuits between windings and open circuits in armature windings, motoring will not (generally) test for this as the armature can spin over faulty windings.
On the armature, when you cleaned the commutator, did you notice the slots between the com bars, they should be at least below the level of the copper bars, if the bakelite/mica is level or above, the brushes will not make proper contact with the copper bars and can cause this fault.
The depth of the slots should be about 1/2 the width of the bars when they are new.
If the com needs to be undercut, there is a proper machine that does this (like a tiny wood saw, driven by a variable speed sewing machine type motor with a snall saw blade attached to it and a sliding cradle (takes about 5 min max to undercut a standard com), you wont have one and they are getting hard to get and unless your planning on doing a lot of them, you wont need one.
What you do is get a broken hacksaw blade and grind along both sides of it to reduce the wave in the teeth, I used to (I havnt done this in 20 years) also grind a sort of a hook on the end as well to scatch the slots out after machining, anyway, with the teeth pointing back towards you, drag the bade in the slot towards you and it will start to re cut the slots, keep doing this untill you get to the 1/2 bar width, then move to the next one and so on.
Try not to scratch the com bars as the raised metal from the scratch will act like a file and chew up your brushes, if you do scratch one, you will need to sand the whole com again (you should do this after you finish undercutting anyway, then carefully use the hook on the blade to make sure there is no copper residue between the bars)
The cleaning of copper between the bars is very important as each bar is part of a circuit and if there is any copper between them, it is a short between windings.
Brushes...
Should be about 1" long or so (I havnt measured one in a long time) but the main thing is when they are installed in the brush holder, that there is still plenty of travel left in them before they no longer get pushed onto the com by the brush springs.
They should also be able to slide freely in the brush holder with a very small amount of "looseness) in the holder, to tight and they will stick.
Fixing a genny is not rocket science, but it does have to be done correctly or it either wont work or it will soon fail.
The correct setting of a regulator is best left to the professionals as if you do it wrong, there is a lot of damage that can be done.
I would concider changing to an alternator if you are not that worried about keeping it orriginal, the one I have used on my poly is as common as here, not sure about there and if you dont have every accessory available to man fitted to your car, a 40 to 60 amp one is fine, but tell us if your going that road as there are some simple, but nessesary wiring mods to concider, and on that, Darren and myself do dissagree on some aspects.
To me, an alternator conversion is the best move unless (as I said) you want to keep it stock
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Expert
Posts: 2120
Location: atlanta | the hell with the generator problem, where do i check this blinker fluid, on of mine (rear driver side isn't working) are there seperate reservoir's for each blinker? i've never checked mine since i had the car, i thought it might be the battery.
Edited by fenix 2014-04-17 8:41 AM
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Charing issue
