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Expert
Posts: 2244
  
Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | I have aluminum intakes on both my Big block Dodges, (413 and a 440).
The 413 has a Barry Grant Carb, and it starts right up , hot or cold.
The 440 has dual quads, Edelbrock 1405 & 1406, it starts right up hot or cold too
and I drive the heck outta both cars. It has been hot here in S Calif, for a week or 2
and I have been driving both cars with no starting problems.
I do have high torque starters on both cars.
Gary |
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| Thanks Gary, your posts have really helped steer me in the right direction. I finally have found a significant change: I blocked the exhaust crossover off.
I did my usual heat-up test after blocking the passages off, by letting the car run with the electric cooling fan unhooked so the engine got good and hot, (well over 200 degrees) then shut it down and waited 15 minutes. Then I cranked it, it turned over still for around 5 seconds, but it started, which was a VAST improvement over the previous (open crossover) 10 second crank. And driving it around town today, after coming out of a store after sitting 10 + minutes, it fired up within 2 seconds and ran perfectly every time. (Of course, the engine wasn't as hot as when I did the heat-up test, but you can see the improvement...the car used to start hard once engine was up to operating temp regardless of outside tempurature, within reason...I would imagine at -20 below it would have been better, but who cares about that temp on a classic?)
So in my final analysis, the single best solution IMO is to pull your intake and block those crossover ports off. IF YOU ARE RUNNING AN ALUMINUM INTAKE AND AN EDELBROCK 1406, IT'S ESSENTIAL. Secondly, as Gary says, a high torque starter would improve the situation even more, although I'm still unsure if you can put a high torque unit on the pre-62 bellhousing, the mounting area is different. For you '62-up owners, the high torque starter is a no-brainer, it's better all around.
I couldn't find a valley pan without the open crossover ports, so I actually tack-welded them shut with pieces of thin tin cut exactly to fit inside the hole and a MIG welder...finicky though, and I'm sure somebody makes a closed -crossover valley pan. Edelbrock does not, strangely.
As for cold starting? I fired the car up this morning at less than 10 degrees celsius, and it fired up within 2 seconds and sat there purring like a kitten. One side note to this, it's probably obvious but YOU NEED TO RUN AN ELECTRIC CHOKE WITH THE CROSSOVER BLOCKED, as the original heat controlled one mounted on the intake manifold likely would not work properly. |
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| And, if you STILL aren't satisfied with the hot starting, dig on this (from "Gordr", a smart Albertan on a Studebaker Forum 
QUOTE - "Part of the answer is an electric fuel pump. The other part of the answer is to install a manual switch, and use it to cut off the fuel pump a few seconds before shutting the engine down. Then develop a new driving habit. When the car is warmed up, or downright hot, and you park somewhere, switch off the fuel pump as you are making your final parking maneuver, and let the engine idle until it stalls from lack of fuel, instead of promptly shutting off the ignition switch. A carburetor bowl that is empty cannot percolate fuel into the manifold and flood it.
For this to work, you will have to remove or bypass the mechanical fuel pump. You should also have a fuel pump relay controlled by oil oil pressure or ignition pulses as a safety measure to ensure that the fuel pump doesn't keep running in the event of a wreck."
Edited by Resurrector 2013-09-24 1:48 AM
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Location: North Australia | The FelPro intake valley pan gasket with the crossover blocked part No is 1215.
You get 4 paper gaskets too, but I did not use them with the cast iron manifold on my engine. The new metal gasket was a perfect match for the one I took out 'sept no crossover holes.
I used the old one as a template to match up the head and manifold ports. In the process I removed a significant amount of metal from both parts to match them up.
This is on my 1960 413 Imperial engine. I also removed the exhaust butterfly and matched up the exhaust ports.
The standard manifold has a NOS kitted Carter bolted onto it (the original owner gave me his spare he bought 50 years ago!). I did match the ports and cleaned up the manifold intake runners up as far as I could with a 6" long burr.
I have limit run time so far, but I checked the choke operation with the engine hot and it had opened right up. I did add a light spring to assist it opening up. The engine is running well, but I should say the temperature here rarely goes below 25C.
I have noticed the car takes 3 seconds or so to fireup hot. Cold it starts immediately.
Steve. |
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Expert
Posts: 3888
Location: Northen Virginia | I had problems with hot start, I did the electric pump, which is controlled by a oil pressure sender working only when pressure is zero and the key is on, I noticed NO difference, it even got worst it was my opinion. It helps when the carb is empty after the car sat for a period of time. |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Posts: 13050
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | That will support the earlier statement that the fuel "percolates" out of the carburator and floods the engine! An electric pump will not help, unless a shut-off switch will be mounted, just as Jeff wrote above. |
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Expert
Posts: 3888
Location: Northen Virginia | I drove my car 61 New yorker last night after been in the garage for 8 months (with fuel stabilizer) started no problem (no Choke) about 65 degrees temperature, drove 5 minutes to the gas station to put some air in the tires, car was still basically cold but no problem and starts right back up, so I drove to my friend house about 45minutes trip around 65/75 miles an hour, perfect response good power car did great!!!
Arrived to my friend's and after about 15-20 minutes he asked me to put his car in the driveways for safety, because is a lot of traffic on his street.
Surprise!! the car just won't start, keep crank it and nothing, fortunately for me I installed a fuel pressure gauge and it was showing a good 5psi from the electric 10psi from the mechanic pump when I cranked the car. so it was not a fuel issue.
I checked the spark......NO Spark.. the Ignitor II I suspected, so before I disassemble the whole distributor I took the coil out (virtually new accel yellow brakeless used with resistor) and was very hot!! and I did a basic test just using the battery and a good spark plug, and almost no spark, I went to the trunk and got my spare coil (used Aceel beakless too) and installed it...... Crank crank crank...Mothf ^#%..... nothing.
How big are the chances for two perfect working coils to be bad???? Almost none I guess. Well I took the spare coil back and did a direct hook up to the battery and again almost no spark, was the battery then??? I Thought, I was kind of lost for a moment there, specially with my friend on my side asking me 1.238.992.135.884.411 questions.
Went to autozone and got 19.95 coil CHINESE and is did a battery direct connection test and i got a pretty good blue/orange spark, without using the resistor.
Installed.......1/2 turn and the car start right up, idling beautifully.....
Conclusion, guys.... check the coil, those suckers also get really hot, the Accel hypothetically are a very good product, but both are in the trash now.
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Expert
Posts: 3034
Location: N.W. Fla. | hemidenis - 2013-09-29 10:37 AM
I drove my car 61 New yorker last night after been in the garage for 8 months (with fuel stabilizer) started no problem (no Choke) about 65 degrees temperature, drove 5 minutes to the gas station to put some air in the tires, car was still basically cold but no problem and starts right back up, so I drove to my friend house about 45minutes trip around 65/75 miles an hour, perfect response good power car did great!!!
Arrived to my friend's and after about 15-20 minutes he asked me to put his car in the driveways for safety, because is a lot of traffic on his street.
Surprise!! the car just won't start, keep crank it and nothing, fortunately for me I installed a fuel pressure gauge and it was showing a good 5psi from the electric 10psi from the mechanic pump when I cranked the car. so it was not a fuel issue.
I checked the spark......NO Spark.. the Ignitor II I suspected, so before I disassemble the whole distributor I took the coil out (virtually new accel yellow brakeless used with resistor) and was very hot!! and I did a basic test just using the battery and a good spark plug, and almost no spark, I went to the trunk and got my spare coil (used Aceel beakless too) and installed it...... Crank crank crank...Mothf ^#%..... nothing.
How big are the chances for two perfect working coils to be bad???? Almost none I guess. Well I took the spare coil back and did a direct hook up to the battery and again almost no spark, was the battery then??? I Thought, I was kind of lost for a moment there, specially with my friend on my side asking me 1.238.992.135.884.411 questions.
Went to autozone and got 19.95 coil CHINESE and is did a battery direct connection test and i got a pretty good blue/orange spark, without using the resistor.
Installed.......1/2 turn and the car start right up, idling beautifully.....
Conclusion, guys.... check the coil, those suckers also get really hot, the Accel hypothetically are a very good product, but both are in the trash now.
Years ago my Dad's '69 Plym crapped out on him. He decided the condenser was bad, replaced it, nothing. Went on replacing a part @ a time untill everything was replaced, still nothing. So he started over, after installing another new condenser it started right up. You never know! |
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| Hearing about coil problems makes me wonder if that's why Chrysler started mounting the coil on the fenderwell on the '80's 5th avenues with 318's? |
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| FOLLOW UP- solution found, and it is...edelbrock carbs are GARBAGE, their design is a complete fail for modern fuel if you run them in typical, above-zero Celsius temps and conditions. They work fine for snowplow trucks in cold weather, as in -20 degrees. I bolted on old late 1970's - early 80's Quadrajets off of Chevy trucks, on both my 361 and 383, both cars start and run absolutely fantastic now. Never took apart either one, just used a new base gasket.
I'm not exaggerating in any way here, it was that cut and dried. I'm going to pick up a few extra Quadrajets when I come across them just to have on hand, they are valuable to me more than ever with our crummy ethanol fuel. |
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Expert
Posts: 1352
Location: Springville, CA | I love Rochester Quadrajet carburetors. They're almost infinitely tunable and CAN improve overall gas mileage due to their very small promaries. |
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Expert
Posts: 3034
Location: N.W. Fla. | An insulator between the intake & the Edel carb solved hot start problems a couple Summers ago. |
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Expert
Posts: 3888
Location: Northen Virginia | Mopars are always a mystery, some of them work others don't under the same conditions. |
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Expert
Posts: 2519
Location: central Illinois | Resurrector - 2014-06-20 10:39 PM
FOLLOW UP- solution found, and it is...edelbrock carbs are GARBAGE, their design is a complete fail for modern fuel if you run them in typical, above-zero Celsius temps and conditions. They work fine for snowplow trucks in cold weather, as in -20 degrees. I bolted on old late 1970's - early 80's Quadrajets off of Chevy trucks, on both my 361 and 383, both cars start and run absolutely fantastic now. Never took apart either one, just used a new base gasket.
I'm not exaggerating in any way here, it was that cut and dried. I'm going to pick up a few extra Quadrajets when I come across them just to have on hand, they are valuable to me more than ever with our crummy ethanol fuel.
Edelbrock carbs are junk, LOL. Guess it depends on which you run. I don't run the Performer AFB, I run the Thunder AVS and have had absolutely no issues. 3 different Thunders on 3 different 440's with mechanical pumps on cast iron intakes. It does help to have a working knowledge on how these carbs work and how easy they are to tune. |
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Expert
Posts: 2312
Location: Arizona | My 64 T-bird from a couple years back had an Edelbrock (1409???) on it when I got it and I think it had been on it for 10 years. It ran beautifully. The carbs I've had I'll call junk are the Holley's. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 409
Location: Tampa, Florida |
I had a similar problem with my 68 Roadrunner, 383. flooded when hot, would restart after it cooled.
The gasket at the needle and seat had worn down or dried out. When you shut the car off the residual pressure from the fuel pump was pushing gas past the gasket and flooding the carb.
When we finally figured this out, all it took was a quarter turn on the seat to tighten it up, problem solved.
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Hard starting when hot - Mopar big blocks-solutions?
