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Regular
Posts: 70
Location: North East Pennsylvania | I'm working on a '58 Plymouth with 318 and Torqueflite. The engine is seized badly. It will never turn again. If I unbolt the transmission bell housing from the transmission will the torque converter and bell housing pull away from the transmission? Some of my reading suggests that there is a bolt inside the bell housing that may prevent this. Any input you guys can offer would be great.
Thanks! |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: Perth Australia | Yes, the trans will come back (provided its not ciezed into the t/c) leaving the bell and the t/c attatched to the engine.
The b*stard bolt is attatching the bell to the block and is accessed once the t/c is out of the way.
You will need to get the crank to turn if you want to save the bell and the t/c as you will have to undo the 8(I think) nuts that hold the t/c to the crank.
If you are doing this "in car", be very carefull, there is nothing light about any of the driveline stuff
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Expert
Posts: 3400
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | Have you triied unbolting the mains and loosening the rod caps, big wrench on the crank bolt? |
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Regular
Posts: 70
Location: North East Pennsylvania | The heads were removed decades ago and it has probably been just as long since any oil was in the engine. It would probably have to be hot tanked for a month before you could even try to turn it. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8444
Location: Perth Australia | Try as Shep has sugestested, its what I would be doing
It will most likely be the pistons that are stuck, but if its the crank or the cam (or a combination) undoing a few bolts here and there could save you some money (and time) chasing parts you already have.
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Regular
Posts: 70
Location: North East Pennsylvania | Honestly I think everything is stuck. It's that bad. How hard is it to remove the radiator support? I may just remove everything at once. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 982
Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | ....
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Yep, like Mick and Shep have said.
95 % of the time an old terminal/stuck engine will have stuck pistons only and the crank usually will still turn somewhat after loosening and/or removing some or most of the mains and con rod caps.If possible just leave the front and rear main caps on ( loosened ) and remove the rod caps and try and push the rods themselves out of the way as you turn the crank , as much as it will all move that is.
Pretty sure you'll be able to turn the crank unless of course most of the engine has been submerged in water.
You might only be able to get a few degrees turn but it might just be enough to allow you to get at all of the torque convertor nuts to enable the type of removal you're looking for.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 982
Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | mcaracter - 2014-01-27 12:49 PM
Honestly I think everything is stuck. It's that bad. How hard is it to remove the radiator support? I may just remove everything at once.
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Shouldn't be much involved in removing rad support and if you do pull the engine/trans combo and with the engine out it should will make it much easier to enable you to try and get the crank turned using above methods.
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8444
Location: Perth Australia | It will most likely take no more than a few hours to remove the entire front clip
It really isnt hard to do and you will get so much room you wont regret it
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 (dodge front clip 047 small.JPG)
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 dodge front clip 046 small.JPG (94KB - 139 downloads)
dodge front clip 047 small.JPG (106KB - 136 downloads)
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 888
Location: Peoples Republic of Oregon | I will, respectfully, disagree with those who think that the crank will somehow turn if the main caps are loose...the frozen rings don't care about the crank. You may, at some point, turn the crank, but the pistons have to move first.
Can you remove the crank by itself? Not until the pistons move.
If you are on good terms with your favorite shop owner, and IF he has an old style hot-tank, then find out when he plans to clean and recharge the fluid...drop the shortblock assembly in and let it go for a weekend. Even tired caustic will eat through the alum pistons, but afterwards, it will be completely useless.
The other option will be to cut through the tops of the pistons to free them from the rings/walls, and/or, to free the conrod/wrist pin. Use a large drill bit and make about a thousand holes... |
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Expert
Posts: 3400
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | I am pretty sure once you remove the rod caps, get a large wooden hammer handle up under the piston and give it few raps they would move enough to turn the crank some, this has worked for me before. |
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Regular
Posts: 70
Location: North East Pennsylvania | This is what I'm dealing with...
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Expert
Posts: 3577
Location: Blythewood, SC | Pull the trans with the engine. That way you can lay the block upside down and pull the main caps, and beat the pistons out.
You can save the trans that way, but I'd look for another engine. Unless it is a rare Fury engine or something, it's too far gone to save. |
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Regular
Posts: 70
Location: North East Pennsylvania | It's just a 318 so it's probably not worth what it would take to restore the engine.
The transmission may be salvageable. The output shaft still turns, there's still fluid in it, and the push buttons move freely suggesting the selector is still working.
Edited by mcaracter 2014-01-27 8:11 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1737
Location: Hay Lakes, Alberta, Canada | The engine in my '57 Chrysler was seized. We ended up taking the oil pan off, and undoing the connecting rods and the main bearing caps, and "dropping" (not literally) the crank and torque convertor as one assembly. Then, unbolting it was easy. Careful! It's heavy!!!!! |
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Expert
Posts: 1737
Location: Hay Lakes, Alberta, Canada | Pic...
 (ENGINE APART013sm.JPG)
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ENGINE APART013sm.JPG (80KB - 143 downloads)
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 982
Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | wayfarer - 2014-01-28 3:57 AM
I will, respectfully, disagree with those who think that the crank will somehow turn if the main caps are loose...the frozen rings don't care about the crank.
QUOTE]
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And after re- reading what I typed, I respectfully agree ( wayfarer ) with your respectful disagreeance in that I should have clarified that the ROD caps should be all taken off and MOST of the mains caps taken off before you might get " some " movement of the crank and maybe enough to get to the hard-to-reach T/C nuts.
All good 
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 982
Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | miquelonbrad - 2014-01-28 1:04 PM
Pic...
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Ah....... so that's what a miquelonbrad looks like  
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Elite Veteran
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Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | wayfarer - 2014-01-28 3:57 AM
If you are on good terms with your favorite shop owner, and IF he has an old style hot-tank, then find out when he plans to clean and recharge the fluid...drop the shortblock assembly in and let it go for a weekend. Even tired caustic will eat through the alum pistons, but afterwards, it will be completely useless.
The other option will be to cut through the tops of the pistons to free them from the rings/walls, and/or, to free the conrod/wrist pin. Use a large drill bit and make about a thousand holes...
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Yep, I've managed to reclaim a few rare engines by using this method ( hot tank ) and have done the " smash the pistons " method on one engine though the latter method would be a last resort as it took me more than a day to get the pistons out of that particular block with an old axle and sledge hammer and plenty of diesel down the cyls before and during.
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Expert
Posts: 1737
Location: Hay Lakes, Alberta, Canada | LOL!
Yes, I guess I could post a face pic on my profile... but I think the '57 has a much nicer face!
Below is the special piston removal tool we used...bought from the UFA farm store...sorta...
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AFTERMATH006sm.JPG (66KB - 139 downloads)
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Expert
Posts: 1493
Location: Jamaica Plain, MA | I'd pull the TF off the bell and toss the rest. I'm lazy that way. |
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Regular
Posts: 70
Location: North East Pennsylvania | I decided to remove the front clip. It really wasn't that hard. Now I have all sorts of room to take out the engine as well as making it easier to work on the suspension and brakes.
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IMG_0991.jpg (35KB - 133 downloads)
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8444
Location: Perth Australia | Good move
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Expert
Posts: 1737
Location: Hay Lakes, Alberta, Canada | Lookin good! Want me to send you the piston removal tool? |
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Regular
Posts: 70
Location: North East Pennsylvania | After being side tracked for a few months I was finally able to turn my attention back to removing the engine/transmission... One step closer.
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10418348_721451627901067_6405551839224843477_n.jpg (47KB - 128 downloads)
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Veteran
Posts: 242
Location: 33844 | Ah -- dual master-cylinder . Good. |
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Regular
Posts: 70
Location: North East Pennsylvania | So this is what I've found inside the crank case...
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10915200_809476049098624_1860478085622677562_n.jpg (44KB - 110 downloads)
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10689576_809486939097535_972910749439166855_n.jpg (46KB - 113 downloads)
10689576_809486939097535_972910749439166855_n.jpg (46KB - 121 downloads)
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8444
Location: Perth Australia | Now thats gunked up
Not much hope for it really is there
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Regular
Posts: 70
Location: North East Pennsylvania | I really don't think it's salvageable! But with a little luck I may come away with the torque converter, flexplate, and adapter plate. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 982
Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | .........
WOW.... apart from engines that were completely submerged for many years I have to say I've never seen that much crap inside a sump before ( apart from oily sludge )
That 318's a boat anchor and certainly looks like it's been used for one already.
I'd get the gas axe out ( oxy/acetylene ) or maybe a large grinder with a cutting wheel and just cut off the end of the crank as close to the converter as you can.
The crank will be cactus anyway and you'll be needing another engine for sure.
Should make the whole process a bit easier that way.
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Expert
Posts: 2196
Location: Muskego, WI | That is incredible, I've never seen so much crap packed into a motor. How does that even happen? |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 9684
Location: So. Cal | Wow. That is one for the record books. There's so much rust and crap in there, metal recyclers would even balk at it. |
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Regular
Posts: 70
Location: North East Pennsylvania | It took me a while to come up with a working theory as to how it all got in there. At first I thought maybe it was a flood, but the rest of the car really didn't hold up that idea. The car was parked for many years in a desert. (Probably more years than I've been walking this Earth.) And the heads were removed from the engine a long time ago. I think that dust and dirt entered in through the top of the engine and combined with the decaying/sludging oil in the bottom of the pan. Once that hardened like soil, mice moved in and brought a lot of fluffy stuff with them. Maybe from the seats? Which, incidentally were nothing but frames by the time I got the car. That's the best I've been able to come up with so far.
But yeah, it's shot. The search for a new engine, or drivetrain begins! |
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Regular
Posts: 70
Location: North East Pennsylvania | Anyone have a running and reasonably priced 318 anywhere relatively near Northeast Pennsylvania? |
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Separating engine with torque converter and bell housing from transmission?
