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Long Ram question
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haspe
Posted 2014-10-08 10:39 PM (#458593)
Subject: Long Ram question


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Location: Washington State, the wet side		I wonder if there is much difference between the left and right long ram except for the throttle linkage bosses? Could two right intakes be used on the same motor? Reason for asking is because I have two with the same part number 1947163
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ttotired
Posted 2014-10-09 6:29 AM (#458606 - in reply to #458593)
Subject: Re: Long Ram question



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Location: Perth Australia		What a good question
Without having a set (yet) myself, I could imagine that the position of the carbies would not be that close to right because of the stagger in the intake ports, also, the choke side of things would also not work as 1 would be in front of the carbie and 1 would be behind it
They have different "bows" in their shape, but I have no idea why that is, but really, if they can mechanically fit on the engine, I would think (as a route for the carbie mixture to get from the carbie to the ports), they should work.

Anything can work if you try hard enough

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finsruskw
Posted 2014-10-09 10:13 AM (#458619 - in reply to #458606)
Subject: Re: Long Ram question


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Location: Eastern Iowa		The choke side of the driver side carb IS in the front and the pass side IS in the rear.
Try them and see if they will fit.
The extra belcrank pivot may interfere with the crossover tube though.
I guess you could grind it off.
I think they will work just fine as the tubes are the same length right and left.


Edited by finsruskw 2014-10-09 10:15 AM
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Adventurer 60
Posted 2015-02-22 6:43 AM (#470638 - in reply to #458593)
Subject: Re: Long Ram question



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Location: tailFinland		I think there is no other differce exept throttle linkage, dashpot and coil bosses. Otherwise they look exactly the same.
So you might be able to build up a set with two same handed intakes. But throttle lingage or cables are not your only problem, you need supports for them on exhaust manifolds.
Intakes are heavy!
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58coupe
Posted 2015-02-22 10:10 AM (#470647 - in reply to #458593)
Subject: Re: Long Ram question



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Location: Alaska		When I ran my long ram many years ago on my Fury I did not use the special exhaust because they didn't come with them. In fact, I didn't even know about them. These manifolds are aluminum and very light so, I didn't have any trouble at all running them without the exhaust.
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grunau
Posted 2015-02-22 12:25 PM (#470657 - in reply to #458593)
Subject: RE: Long Ram question


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Location: North of the 49th		Hi
In my opinion trying to use two left side manifolds would not really work since the left has a greater curvature than the right side and even if they did match up with the ports what about the equalizer tube?? The manifolds won't work without the equalizer connected as the carburetor plenum pulsations would not be transferred back and forth to match the sonic wave. My advice would be to try to locate the matching side. Its worth it 'cause they are kinda fun as the long rams do provide a good amount of "push" at the lower RPM ranges and makes for great hole shots I've been running them for a while on an early sixties B body and they work very well with the carbs properly tuned.



1960 Desoto
1958 Plymouth Fury
1958 Dodge Custom Suburban
1958 Plymouth Savoy
1959 Dodge Custom Sierra
Plus a few Non-FL's



(firstrun070920.jpg)



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Attachments firstrun070920.jpg (184KB - 145 downloads)
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R41HP
Posted 2015-02-23 2:10 PM (#470731 - in reply to #470657)
Subject: Re: Long Ram question


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Location: Chicago		I don't know about using two of the same side, but a guy once showed up a 300 meet with rams on backwards. A few guys helped swap them around in the parking lot.

My 300-G came with the exhaust elbows removed, and the exhaust manifolds blocked off. I drove it for a lot of years that way. Sort of doable on a fair-weather collector car,
but there was a big improvement in drivability below 75*F or so when I put everything back on.

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Sonoramic60
Posted 2015-02-23 5:08 PM (#470744 - in reply to #470731)
Subject: Re: Long Ram question


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R41 --
I know the feeling! In 1961, I put some Hedman Hedders on that 2X4V '60 Plymouth Fury I had back then, plus some 4.10 gears in the rear end. The increase in performance in a drag race was incredible, especially at a "Stop Light Grand Prix" where that old Big-Tailed Beast could even surprise the 409/409 Impalas. However, at a full quarter mile, even the 1960s with the 335 horse/348s, 4-speeds, and 4.56 rear ends would wipe me out. I just wish I had the bigger heads of the 413s or the later 383s and could modify the "log rams" for higher end power.
The point of this whole missive is that the Hedmans had no provisions for heat risers, so you can imagine what it was like driving that BTB in Colorado in the winter! The gas gauge mirrored the speedometer, as when the latter went to the right, the former charged to the left! What was even worse, this rocket scientist liked to drive with the windows of that 2-dr h/t down (to impress the "chicks").
Joe Godec
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Adventurer 60
Posted 2015-02-24 5:00 PM (#470829 - in reply to #470657)
Subject: RE: Long Ram question



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grunau - 2015-02-22 12:25 PM

Hi
In my opinion trying to use two left side manifolds would not really work since the left has a greater curvature than the right side and even if they did match up with the ports what about the equalizer tube??


Now you gonna see some porn
All these boys has same curvatures in their legs and their huge equalizer tubes hang in the same directions
I have welded, blasted, grinded and painted these 2 pairs I got by my own hands in to my eyes they look basicly similar exept what I told



(rams.jpg)



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Adventurer 60
Posted 2015-02-24 5:14 PM (#470830 - in reply to #458593)
Subject: RE: Long Ram question



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Location: tailFinland		Here you can see how the rams are supported by exhaust manifolds sharing their weight. Elbow is gray in this picture. Empty port under the ram goes to exhaust pipe.




(20141208_211456_resized.jpg)



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grunau
Posted 2015-02-24 7:10 PM (#470846 - in reply to #458593)
Subject: RE: Long Ram question


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Location: North of the 49th		I go by my observations and to me there appears to be a slight difference in the curvature and as a function of this discussion I made that a statement thats' all. Even when I had the manifolds on the bench in my garage they appeared slightly different. (I glass beaded mine and left them bare aluminum). So you have a very nice engine enjoy....and I hope the fellow that started all of this ends up with a nice engine too...
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1960fury
Posted 2015-02-24 7:28 PM (#470850 - in reply to #470846)
Subject: RE: Long Ram question



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Location: northern germany		i have a question for the long ram guys. is there any noticeable delay or hesitation when flooring the pedal at idle because of the long runners?

Edited by 1960fury 2015-02-24 7:29 PM
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Adventurer 60
Posted 2015-02-25 1:51 AM (#470888 - in reply to #458593)
Subject: Re: Long Ram question



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Location: tailFinland		Actually I have engine still in stand, rams uninstalled. I can test how the same side rams goes on it Then we know for sure do I have somthing wrong in my sight
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BigBlockMopar
Posted 2015-02-25 4:01 AM (#470896 - in reply to #470850)
Subject: RE: Long Ram question



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1960fury - 2015-02-24 1:28 PM

i have a question for the long ram guys. is there any noticeable delay or hesitation when flooring the pedal at idle because of the long runners?


Not quite. Throttle movements react fairly instant. Maybe 2/10th of a seconds delay if you could measure it properly


I got some videos on my Youtube channel revving the long ram strokermotor in my '60 NewYorker;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMk3ZO8aG1k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAqiGASpzos

Engine tune (acceleration pumpshot) in the last pic gave a slight delay because of the wild cam's low vacuum, but it's not noticable on normal cammed engines.
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Adventurer 60
Posted 2015-02-26 3:55 AM (#470996 - in reply to #458593)
Subject: RE: Long Ram question



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haspe - 2014-10-08 10:39 PM

I wonder if there is much difference between the left and right long ram except for the throttle linkage bosses? Could two right intakes be used on the same motor? Reason for asking is because I have two with the same part number 1947163


Yes you can. Here you see a picture. There are 2 righ side (carb on the left) rams on the motor. They bolt right on.



(20150225_195802_resized.jpg)



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1960fury
Posted 2015-02-26 2:56 PM (#471041 - in reply to #470896)
Subject: RE: Long Ram question



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BigBlockMopar - 2015-02-25 4:01 AM

1960fury - 2015-02-24 1:28 PM

i have a question for the long ram guys. is there any noticeable delay or hesitation when flooring the pedal at idle because of the long runners?


Not quite. Throttle movements react fairly instant. Maybe 2/10th of a seconds delay if you could measure it properly


I got some videos on my Youtube channel revving the long ram strokermotor in my '60 NewYorker;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMk3ZO8aG1k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAqiGASpzos

Engine tune (acceleration pumpshot) in the last pic gave a slight delay because of the wild cam's low vacuum, but it's not noticable on normal cammed engines.


okay thanks, yes i know your vids. really cool. my ex girlfriend watched them a billion times, she loved that big old chrysler on the strip
that 2nd video, it idles pretty smooth, what are the cam specs and how many cubes?

Edited by 1960fury 2015-02-26 3:00 PM
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BigBlockMopar
Posted 2015-02-26 3:43 PM (#471050 - in reply to #458593)
Subject: Re: Long Ram question



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Location: Netherlands		The engine is a 496" stroker with Edelbrock heads.
The cam is a CompCams XR274 solid roller with 274 adv.dur and .570/.580" lift.
Runs nice in Neutral but has a very noticable lopey idle in Drive.
It really should be run with a slightly higher stallspeed convertor and a seperate spare vacuum-canister or electric vacuumpump to keep the brakebooster properly 'charged'.

I also think LPG would be a better choice for fuel for the longrams on this engine.


Edited by BigBlockMopar 2015-02-26 3:45 PM
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ttotired
Posted 2015-02-26 4:58 PM (#471055 - in reply to #458593)
Subject: Re: Long Ram question



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Location: Perth Australia		"I also think LPG would be a better choice for fuel for the longrams on this engine."

Why is that?

to thirsty on petrol or is there some advantage to lpg other than price?

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BigBlockMopar
Posted 2015-02-26 5:19 PM (#471057 - in reply to #458593)
Subject: Re: Long Ram question



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Location: Netherlands		Yes, propane can't (re)form into droplets and fall out of suspension like gasoline does when the longram intake tubes are
cold and mixture speed is slow like at idle for instance.
So the mixture entering the engine is still the same as the carb metered it.
Therefore the engine runs much nicer on propane.

My daily 318ci smallblock on propane can idle at 450rpm after a cold start on a frosty morning without any issues,
where a gasoline engine would stumble and die because of the lousy mixture it's getting. (Unless it's being fed an extra load of gasoline and some more rpms by a choke-system).


(Would be nice if Grunau could delete or resize that enormous picture in his reply sop we don't have to scroll left/right to read the replies)
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1960fury
Posted 2015-02-26 6:40 PM (#471069 - in reply to #471057)
Subject: Re: Long Ram question



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Location: northern germany		i hate to bring that up again BUT every carburetor engine needs a heat riser or some kind of intake warming device and especially the long ram engines. in fact even with working heat risers these were known to foul plugs and for rough cold idle back in the day. this was blamed on weak heat riser springs but i believe its rather a design fault of the ram engines.
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R41HP
Posted 2015-02-27 12:30 AM (#471094 - in reply to #471069)
Subject: Re: Long Ram question


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1960fury - 2015-02-26 5:40 PM

i hate to bring that up again BUT every carburetor engine needs a heat riser or some kind of intake warming device and especially the long ram engines. in fact even with working heat risers these were known to foul plugs and for rough cold idle back in the day. this was blamed on weak heat riser springs but i believe its rather a design fault of the ram engines.


To your questions, the long ram can work well for normal driving if it is set up correctly, and all parts are intact. As you point out, for cars that are not actual race cars there needs to be some heat under the carburetor(s), which normal manifolds get. I am basing my observations on owning a 300-G from 1987 to present and having it on the road most of that time. Exhaust stuff was bypassed by previous owner when i bought it. I drove it 80K miles or more across the USA that way until 2005 when I rebuilt the engine. Without the exhaust parts under the carbs, the engine would hesitate on acceleration unless it was a hot summer day, the car was thoroughly warmed up, and the spark plugs were fairly new. Once everything was back in place, the car drives nicely.

Also, the exhaust elbows under the rams do not structurally support the rams. It might look like that, but no. Think about it. The rams are torqued to the heads. That is the seal. Whether or not the exhaust elbows are there does not affect the intake manifold gasket seal.

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BigBlockMopar
Posted 2015-02-27 3:46 AM (#471109 - in reply to #458593)
Subject: Re: Long Ram question



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Location: Netherlands		I agree with the head-seal. My longrammed engine has no elbows to support the outer ends of the intakes and has been working fine without leaks.
But I'm sure the exhaust elbows also help prevent possible vibrations in the manifolds.

As for manifold-heat to be present, I agree, BUT it's only needed with gasoline powered engines (which ofcourse pretty much all of them are).
On a propane fed engine you don't need any heat at all. Even more, you don't Want any heat in the intake track as it simply expands the mixture inside which results in a less dense charge going into the engine, making it less efficient.

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Adventurer 60
Posted 2015-02-27 8:21 AM (#471122 - in reply to #471069)
Subject: Re: Long Ram question



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1960fury - 2015-02-26 6:40 PM

i hate to bring that up again BUT every carburetor engine needs a heat riser or some kind of intake warming device and especially the long ram engines. in fact even with working heat risers these were known to foul plugs and for rough cold idle back in the day. this was blamed on weak heat riser springs but i believe its rather a design fault of the ram engines.


I hate to disagree with you:) Me and my pals have build hotrods for decades. Engines with headers and no heat risers, tunnels in the intakes have been blocked etc.
These engines work just fine when the motor has been warmed up. So every carburetor does not need it. Motorbike engines do not have them etc.
Heat risers are mainly for automatic choke! Thats it, becouse with out them automatic choke is inpossible . Some European carburetors back in 70's used to freeze around 0 centigrades but otherwice heat is bad for performance and carburetor and carburetor do not need heat. Insted in hot rod world peolple try to insulate carb from the engines heat.
If you use your carin winter and cold weather, sure its good to have all components working and you do not need to struggle with cold engine.

About long ram elbows: You know how the crow bar works? You know what the vibration and torque does to metal. You know law of physics. Then take a look of engine pic I attached. All the weight of the ram, carb, cleaner, is on the other end of the "crow bar". Ram is surely torqued to head on the other side of the engine compartment with 4 3/8 bolts but.... What happens if you drive to bump on highway at 60mph. It raises you from the seat, How does it move the carb on the other side of the "crow bar" up down maybe?



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58coupe
Posted 2015-02-27 8:52 AM (#471123 - in reply to #458593)
Subject: Re: Long Ram question



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Location: Alaska		Apparently you guys have never dealt with carb. ice. It can develop in temps. as high as 40-45F. with moist air and the only way to eliminate it is to heat the carb. or shut off the engine and let it melt.(only temporary) I have a 4 cyl. mitsu. (daily beater) that is supposed to have hot water to heat the carb. but it must be blocked somewhere and it will build carb. ice so bad, it will quit running. It has an intake hose to bring cold air to the air filter and I had to aim it at the exhaust to temporarily solve the problem until I can fix it. You may not need carb. heat in Arizona but you sure need it in Alaska and I bet also Finland.
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finsruskw
Posted 2015-02-27 9:56 AM (#471130 - in reply to #458593)
Subject: RE: Long Ram question


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Location: Eastern Iowa		SOMEBODY pleas fix this darn thread!!
I'm wearing out my lefty righty arrow thingy tryin' to read this!!
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R41HP
Posted 2015-02-27 11:11 AM (#471136 - in reply to #471130)
Subject: Re: Long Ram question


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Location: Chicago		The "short" long rams have no connection to the exhaust (i.e. Daytona Beach racers). You would think
if Chrysler was worried about rams falling off the heads it would be on a car that was going 150 mph on a beach.

Also, Gregg Ziegler told me his 300-F race car had no carb heat and it was "miserable" to drive in cold weather.
It was later fitted with a hot water setup.
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1960fury
Posted 2015-02-27 1:23 PM (#471159 - in reply to #471122)
Subject: Re: Long Ram question



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Adventurer 60 - 2015-02-27 8:21 AM

1960fury - 2015-02-26 6:40 PM

i hate to bring that up again BUT every carburetor engine needs a heat riser or some kind of intake warming device and especially the long ram engines. in fact even with working heat risers these were known to foul plugs and for rough cold idle back in the day. this was blamed on weak heat riser springs but i believe its rather a design fault of the ram engines.


I hate to disagree with you:) Me and my pals have build hotrods for decades. Engines with headers and no heat risers, tunnels in the intakes have been blocked etc.
These engines work just fine when the motor has been warmed up.



agree or disagree it does not change the laws of nature. without a heat riser or some type of intake warming device the engine suffers. also dangerous carburetor icing can occur above freezing temperatures. there is simply a reason every car manufacturer used some kind of intake warming device. chrysler even added carburetor hot air intake ducting in the 60s. go figure.
even WITH working heat risers ram engines were known for plug fouling, gas guzzling and poor cold driving manners.

yes, of course, ONCE the engine reached operating temperature the heat riser is no longer needed but then the damage is already done. fact is 95+% of engine wear occurs during cold starts/warm up. heat risers shorten the warm up time. fact. actually nothing more needs to be said.
sure, you can run an engine without a heat riser but, like it or not, driveability, gas mileage and engine durability will suffer.

Edited by 1960fury 2015-02-27 1:25 PM
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Adventurer 60
Posted 2015-02-28 8:19 AM (#471231 - in reply to #458593)
Subject: Re: Long Ram question



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Location: tailFinland		Well like I said, if you use your car in winter and cold weather you shold have all componets working....
I am NOT saying that heat risers are useless.
I'm also saying our hot rods work fine with out them in summer time, even in summer of Finland.
We surely know here freezing and cold starts, every darn morning is cold :). In 70's some cars with SU-carbretor used to freeze when it was humid weather and few degrees C above freezing temp 0. Not in colder or warmer weather. One reason for freezing is water (moisture) in a gasoline it self.
But we got invention for freezing an keeping engine clean. Gasoline anti freeze http://www.motonet.fi/fi/tuote/605883/Masinol-1l 1 liter for about full tank.
I still do not keep freezing as a problem but I haven't plan to use my 300G in cold bad weather neither
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