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Location: Oregon, USA | Here's what I've got. My '56 Royal's fuel pump isn't pumping enough and needs attention. The pump has a glass bowl which is cool looking so I'm leaning towards rebuilding it but I'm also thinking a later pump commonly available at the local parts store would be easier to deal with for now and I can still rebuild the old pump at my leisure. But I'm also considering going with an electrical pump. I know I'll need to make modifications and will take away from the originality of my car which is amazingly original, me being the third owner but may be a good upgrade as I'm hoping to make the car a driver at some point.
I'd love to hear some opinions.
Thank!
Kelly |
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Location: Arizona | I was just thinking about this issue. I've got two "old cars" and if they sit more than a couple days it's crank crank crank crank crank to get the carb filled with fuel again so I can start them. I'm thinking that if the fuel pump ever goes out I'd replace it with a low pressure electric fuel pump so I can turn the key on and fill the carb and not have to crank crank....... |
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Location: Oregon, USA | That's exactly my issue. I've got to fill the carb with gas and still I crank crank crank to get her to run. I'll rebuild the Stromberg at the same time for good measure. |
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Location: Under the X in Texas | With the very high evaporation rate of ethanol blend gasolines, there are more problems today than ever before. You must have a fuel pump with a new diaphram for alcohol and any related rubber lines alcohol resistant. Pump kits avail for your original pump and you can rebuild easily at home. Hobby supplier for the last 50 years of quality kits has been: http://then-now-auto.com/fuel-pumps/ I've been a good customer of theirs! And I install an electric pump near to the tank to 'prime' my car after sitting for weeks. |
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Location: Connecticut | Rusty and Jim - A couple of questions: When you first try to start the car after it sits for at least 24 hours, do you step on the gas pedal to shut the choke before cranking ?Is the choke closing immediately or binding ? Your situations are consistent with a choke that isn't closing properly. Have you manually throttled the carb without it running to verify that you get a nice, healthy stream going into the float bowl ? If gas is just trickling into the carb when throttled, then you need to properly rebuild the carb and dial it in correctly. Do you have the glass bowl fuel filter attached to the carb ? The glass bowl contains half an ounce of gas. When initially cranking, the fuel in the glass bowl is immediately sucked into the carb, allowing the car to start after one or two cranks. I have a NOS fuel pump on a stock 318 in my 58 Plymouth. The car can sit for three months and will start after cranking for about five seconds. Once I start driving it more frequently, it will start after one or two cranks. Ron |
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Location: Ontario, Canada | My experience along with most of the Mopar guys I know have similar issues as Rusty and Jim. I have thousands of square feet of storage space that I rent to car guys for off season storage. EVERY non-fuel injected car acts the same way when the owners go to start 'em up in the spring. Again, from what I experience every year is that Mopars tend to fire up quicker!!
My Regal takes two or three weeks of non use to crank--crank--crank at which point I loosen the nut on the air cleaner a bit and slowly pour an ounce or so of gas to slop into the AFB. It will instantly fire enough to disengage the starter. Do that two or three times and away it goes. Just like clockwork!
It has nothing to do with the choke. I bought several NOS Carter manual choke conversion kits for WCFB and AFB carbs and mounted them on ALL the cars I drove for any length of time. Same issues for manual chokes! Certainly not an adjustment thing.
Wayne: I was going to do the same thing. Install an electric pump at the tank, with a separate switch and use it to prime the carb. And to use as a back-up in case the original failed. I tried a couple but couldn't suck through them at rest so that wouldn't work as a stand by. I was also concerned that their operating fuel pressure might be way to high for my rather primitive needle and seat. Do you have specs for your elec pump?
Ron: the word NOS associated with fuel pumps is a dirty word. When NOS pumps were available I bought a number of them and from different sources. Every one I used failed!! I took them apart and the diaphragms were all shrivelled up and torn. Some even fragmented into tiny bits and I had to rebuild to clean out the carbs and lines to get rid of the dirt.
Greg |
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Location: Connecticut | Greg - As they say, 'your mileage may vary'. I'm just describing my experience. I installed a NOS fuel pump at least three years ago and no problems so far. If/when it fails, I'll rebuild it with a kit designed for modern gas. I've had sticky choke problems in the past. So I offered some simple tests for Rusty and Jim, which could pinpoint the cause of their problems. It's too easy to blame every starting problem on today's gas. Ron |
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Location: Under the X in Texas | Greg, I've used various brands of inline electric pumps over about 4 decades now. Yes, some do not allow "draw through" when passive - have to watch for that. So long as they are not high volume, high pressure race application pumps, there is no problem with their pressure - seems most are about 6 lbs. Many years ago I used pressure regulators on 6V systems for that concern but stopped buying them as without them had no problems. Since used almost exclusively as a primer prior to starting all has gone very well. Living in SoCal or now in Texas, in occasional heat sink conditions I'll hit the switch to get me through a period of percolation /cavitation. I gave up on clothes pins attached to the line in the engine compartment. I do reserve using the idea of keeping a grapefruit in the cooler on a trip and mashing half of it over the top of a mechanical fuel pump that is cooking. Drove that way from MO to CA one summer! LOL |
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Location: N.W. Fla. | Been a lot of problems with Hemi F/Ps for a few yrs now, even new ones. Hot Heads sells an adaptor to use the LA F/P, solved it for me. |
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Location: Oregon, USA | ronbo97 - 2015-05-06 11:06 PM
Rusty and Jim - A couple of questions: When you first try to start the car after it sits for at least 24 hours, do you step on the gas pedal to shut the choke before cranking ?Is the choke closing immediately or binding ? Your situations are consistent with a choke that isn't closing properly. Have you manually throttled the carb without it running to verify that you get a nice, healthy stream going into the float bowl ? If gas is just trickling into the carb when throttled, then you need to properly rebuild the carb and dial it in correctly. Do you have the glass bowl fuel filter attached to the carb ? The glass bowl contains half an ounce of gas. When initially cranking, the fuel in the glass bowl is immediately sucked into the carb, allowing the car to start after one or two cranks. I have a NOS fuel pump on a stock 318 in my 58 Plymouth. The car can sit for three months and will start after cranking for about five seconds. Once I start driving it more frequently, it will start after one or two cranks. Ron
Great questions! A little back history, I've owned two '55 Dodges, three '66 Plymouths a '54 Kaiser a '64 VW Type 3 Notchback, now my '56 Royal Lancer and many other carb cars. and have rebuilt at least a handfull so am pretty familiar with how these cars should start/run.
Yep, I give the pedal one stroke to the floor to engage the choke and have verified it's correct operation.
The glass bowl is actually a part (on the bottom) of the fuel pump itself and not at the carb.
After the car sits 24 hours the carb, fuel line and an aftermarket filter inline between the carb and fuel pump are dry. The glass bowl is full of fuel at the pump but no fuel beyond that. If i take the outflow fuel line off the pump and crank for about 5 seconds, a very small amount of fuel is pumped out, like half a teaspoon so thinking I have very low pressure coming from the pump. Guessing the pump is clogged or has a damaged diaphragm. I'm planning to pull the pump this weekend and start in on it.
Most of my old cars even after sitting long periods would start right away, or with a quick squirt of starting fluid.
So that's why I'm suspecting my pump though with the gas draining from the carb to the pump also thinking I'll rebuild the carb as well. Also I've replaced the rubber sections of the fuel line and verified no obstruction in the filter.
Thanks for the replies and advise, I really do appreciate it! I'll let you folks know what I find this weekend 
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Location: Connecticut | Rusty - A couple of thoughts on what you wrote: I'm not sure that the glass bowl fuel pump is correct. All the illustrations I see in the parts book and shop manual (I'm looking at a 55 Des shop manual, but should be similar) show non-glass bowl fuel pumps and instead the glass bowl fuel filter at the carb. I have no idea how gas would drain from the carb back to the pump. All the fuel in the carb is in the float bowl, which is below the fuel inlet port on the carb. Also, there should be a check valve in the aftermarket fuel filter to prevent this from occurring. BTW, I would remove the aftermarket fuel filter, since it's not necessary if you already have a filter in the glass bowl of the fuel pump. Also, how would you know if the carb is dry without removing the air horn to look in the float bowls ? It may very well be the pump that's the cause of your problem. Hopefully, it's a rebuildable one. Last thought: Don't ever use starter fluid. Ever. If anyone disagrees with what I've written, please jump in. Any additional thoughts appreciated. Ron |
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Location: Arizona | Ronbo - those are all good suggestions. I do set the choke before I even start cranking. And when the gas finally get to the carb it fires right up and purrs and after letting it idle for 30 seconds I can drive away fine as long as I give it gas gently for the first mile. NOthing about the way the car runs suggests an acceleration pump problem. My glass bowl is on the bottom of the fuel pump. I've seen them near the carb on older cars but not on a 1960. I'm not seeing how it would help though. What would suck the fuel from the bowl into the carb? The bowl is vented so the tiny vacuum during crank wouldn't seem like enough to pull any fuel, it would just suck air in thru the vent. The only thing that would move it into the carb would be more gas from the fuel pump pushing it in. I timed the cranking once and I think it was around 25 seconds, which really isn't all that long but it seems like an eternity. |
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Location: Oregon, USA | ronbo97 - 2015-05-07 1:57 PM
Rusty - A couple of thoughts on what you wrote: I'm not sure that the glass bowl fuel pump is correct. All the illustrations I see in the parts book and shop manual (I'm looking at a 55 Des shop manual, but should be similar) show non-glass bowl fuel pumps and instead the glass bowl fuel filter at the carb. I have no idea how gas would drain from the carb back to the pump. All the fuel in the carb is in the float bowl, which is below the fuel inlet port on the carb. Also, there should be a check valve in the aftermarket fuel filter to prevent this from occurring. BTW, I would remove the aftermarket fuel filter, since it's not necessary if you already have a filter in the glass bowl of the fuel pump. Also, how would you know if the carb is dry without removing the air horn to look in the float bowls ? It may very well be the pump that's the cause of your problem. Hopefully, it's a rebuildable one. Last thought: Don't ever use starter fluid. Ever. If anyone disagrees with what I've written, please jump in. Any additional thoughts appreciated. Ron
Ron,
Thanks, I'll take your advise ditch the filter and no starting fluid. I actually use gas now but those were other days I'm not sure where the pump came from but it's not in my service manual either. The grimy pump in the trunk wrapped in a plastic bag however looks correct. Maybe the last owner replaced the original with something he had in his shed? Don't know. And you're right, I didn't pull the top off the carb to check the bowl, just assumed as no fuel since the lines and filter were dry and not even a cough when I cranked it.
Thanks again. Will let you know. |
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Location: Connecticut | jimntempe - 2015-05-07 3:00 PM Ronbo - those are all good suggestions. I do set the choke before I even start cranking. And when the gas finally get to the carb it fires right up and purrs and after letting it idle for 30 seconds I can drive away fine as long as I give it gas gently for the first mile. NOthing about the way the car runs suggests an acceleration pump problem. My glass bowl is on the bottom of the fuel pump. I've seen them near the carb on older cars but not on a 1960. I'm not seeing how it would help though. What would suck the fuel from the bowl into the carb? The bowl is vented so the tiny vacuum during crank wouldn't seem like enough to pull any fuel, it would just suck air in thru the vent. The only thing that would move it into the carb would be more gas from the fuel pump pushing it in. I timed the cranking once and I think it was around 25 seconds, which really isn't all that long but it seems like an eternity. Jim - 1960 parts book shows a glass bowl fuel filter at the carb. Fuel pump has no glass bowl. I assume that it is a combination of fuel pump sending fuel up the pipe and engine vacuum pulling it in thru the carb. 25 seconds ? WOAH ! Should be 4 - 5 seconds maximum. My story: When I purchased my 58 Ply, I had a similar issue to what y'all are describing. If I let the car sit for more than a day, it would take forever to get it started. I compared my setup to what I saw on 57-8 Plymouths in the local old car junkyard. My car was missing the glass bowl. So I bought the assembly and pump-to-filter fuel line and installed it on my car. Problem went away and never returned. Ron |
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Location: Arizona | 25 seconds with no fuel in the carb. Not when it's got fuel, then it starts normally. |
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Location: Connecticut | jimntempe - 2015-05-07 8:08 PM 25 seconds with no fuel in the carb. Not when it's got fuel, then it starts normally. Jim - Another test you might do is disconnect the rubber hose from the fuel line to the inlet port of the fuel pump. Then run a rubber hose from a gas can into the inlet port of the fuel pump. After throttling a few times to get fuel up the line, try to start the car. It should start in a few seconds. This will test if there's a partial blockage or kink somewhere in the fuel line. Ron |
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Location: Ontario, Canada | Ron,
I, too, was just describing my experience. I truly wish I had had better luck with "NOS" pumps!!
Wayne,
Thanks for the input. Your driving results are what I was looking to get. While I will still rely on my own "suck and blow" fuel inlet and outlet tests I will look for a pump with approx. 6 or so psi.
Greg |
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Location: Ontario, Canada | Thinking about this a bit more -- I have had cars with the glass bowl near the carbs and with bowls under the fuel pump. The behaviour is still the same. All mechanical fuel pumps have a built-in check valve. If it was not working the pump simply could NOT pump!! The engine wouldn't even run.
The only fuel that can evaporate is that which is exposed to the atmosphere. Which is confined to the carb float bowls and, by the way, any and all the other structures that may well have been exposed to heat sufficient to boil off gasoline or MORE importantly alcohol vapours which would exhaust, upstream to the carb bowls.
I guess my conclusion would be that the hotter the engine and ambient temp and underhood environment was (providing a day or so lapse) the longer it would take to fuel up the engine for a restart.
Greg
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Am I correct in understanding that when a fuel pump starts to 'under-perform', that it will exhibit
a 'rolling' or surging acceleration effect, at WOT?
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Location: Kansas City, KS | I put an Airtex E8012S electric fuel pump on all of my old cars http://www.ebay.com/itm/221576314266.
It really helps starting after days or weeks of not being driven.
With it's cheap price and easy availability, it makes sense for my non-show cars. |
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Location: York County, PA | It's a Mopar, hit the gas pedal three times before you hit the starter. Sometimes mine sit all winter and they will fire-up after a couple pumps and cranks.
Catch ya later. |
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New User
Posts: 3
| Do you guys use eBay to buy or sell auto parts? How can we trust the a seller from eBay for example? I never trusted to buy parts from that site. |
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Expert
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Location: N.W. Fla. | vasilick - 2015-05-20 6:54 AM
Do you guys use eBay to buy or sell auto parts? How can we trust the a seller from eBay for example? I never trusted to buy parts from that site. This probably should be a separate Thread! Have bought a lot of parts off EBay & have had nothing but good luck. |
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Location: Minor Hill, TN | replace the pump. I had to replace the 1 on my '57 plymouth when I still had her. The pump was leaking fuel I was also wondering why I was running out of fuel or getting low . My dad looked at and said do not drive the car until this is repaired. I was darn lucky this did not catch on fire
Edited by 1961plymouthfury 2015-06-19 2:49 AM
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | As above mentioned (3 posts), a weakly operating fuel pump will exhibit a 'rolling' or surging wide-open-throttle
response, when 'floored', at about 40+ MPH, onward.
If it accelerates smoothly, the fuel pump is fine.
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Fuel pump rebuild replace?
