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Location: Lordstown, Ohio | I was told about one, going to look at it today. How do you know if its real |
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Posts: 1886
| I know little about them, but I'd start my looking if the hump looks factory vs a chop job. Get under neath and take pictures. |
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Expert
Posts: 1288
| Lads --
Wayne Graefen has a genuine 300F Special and I'm sure he could help on this.
Joe Godec |
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Expert
Posts: 1288
| PS,
As you are aware, 300F Specials are very rare and the Pont-a-Mousson 4-speed trans itself was special. According to Robert Ackerson, the shift lever for the Special was located on top of the console and its framing appeared as though "Chrysler made use of some scrap aluminun" to enclose. The actual number of Specials produced has thus far been not positively determined, but the concensus of the 300 experts is that there was one "mule" (or test car), six hardtops that ran at Daytona, one black hardtop for a customer in Nevada, and a white convertible for a friend of 300 aficienado race car owner Carl Kiekhaefer.
Evidently, no 300Fs came off the line with the old 3-speed manual, but who knows what happened back in the day when dealers and factory worked to please customers.
Joe
Edited by Sonoramic60 2015-11-07 8:59 PM
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Expert
Posts: 2519
Location: central Illinois | My ex-father in law (now deceased) owned the black 300F that set the Flying Mile record at Daytona in 1960. The car was known in the 300 circles as McAtee's 300F and it appears lately still wearing the vintage Illinois license plate 190060 that he placed on it sometime after he purchased it. Wayne Graefen had seen the car in person sometime in around the late 80's. I believe he has one of the Specials that was produced after the Daytona runs. The McAtee car had a short shifter and I remember Bob saying many of the others had longer shifters as were used in the Facel Vega. Here's a link to a story that Wayne wrote. http://www.300f.com/4speed.htm |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 6502
Location: Newark, Texas (Fort Worth) | https://books.google.com/books?id=Ign8btHPbvMC&pg=PA75&lpg=PA75&dq=3...
l&ots=vvmF5RUZtw&sig=Xeb4u1hh7vM7DG1loy6z0HDyQIE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAWoVChMIzKzQ4tf_yAIVhco-Ch31dwSh#v=onepage&q=300F%20manual%20transmission&f=f
1dwSh#v=onepage&q=300F%20manual%20transmission&f=false
http://www.allpar.com/history/inside/plymouth-8a-300F.html
http://www.rmsothebys.com/mr10/the-milton-robson-collection/lots/19...
Edited by mstrug 2015-11-07 8:35 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1288
| Lads --
I had an opportunity to have a delightful conversation with Mr. McAtee shortly before he put that car on the market. He related to me how he like to take it on the highway and that he had even driven it from the Chicago area to some show or meet out here in the West (Las Vegas, I believe). He was quite a character who had been in the car business for ages and quite definitely was knowledgeable in the field. I think I impressed him by telling him that the current Chrysler guys had no idea how valuable his car was -- at least I hope I did -- but I don't think he appreciated my assertion that the smaller Plymouth and Dart ram-inducted cars were quicker at the drag strip.
Joe |
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Expert
Posts: 1490
Location: Lordstown, Ohio | Well, with a little more digging, I found out the following. The car is a 61. The car IS NOT complete, missing a lot of items. The car has no title or VIN tag. Car was or is suppose to be a 3spd car. Needs all lower metal. And lastly lost my interest after first 3 above mentioned items never went to look at it |
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Location: Parts Unknown | I can count the number of manual 3-speed 61 300's I have seen at 4. I have
seen an additional 3 Windsors with this configuration, and over the course of as
many years, heard of, seen photos of, etc. about that many more. It was a rare
item, given the popularity of the "new" automatic in the golden age of push buttons
and George Jetson futurism. The manual transmission was just a throwback to
"old" and stodgy to most at the time.
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Posts: 1288
| Doc --
Interesting comment. In 1961, when the Ramchargers were making their move into NHRA stock competition, there was considerable discussion among the group as to whether they should go into a "Stock" class or a less prestigious "Stock Automatic" one. The automatic transmission cars in those days were considered handicapped by their poor shifting heavy "slush boxes" and initially competed only against similarly equipped cars (at least until the final "Stock Eliminator" runs). One faction among the Ramchargers wanted to use the Torqueflite, but the other asked for that new, but lousy, Chrysler 3-speed manual that was available in the 300Gs. The manual faction won out, but that trans betrayed them when it failed in the Stock Eliminator finals at the 1961 NHRA Nationals, even though the car turned the highest speeds and lowest E.Ts. of the meet -- it even whipped Mickey Thompson's Poncho in the preliminaries. That '61 trans was notorious for bending and even sheering synchro pins in hard shifts and it did just that in Al Eckstrand's run for the trophy. However, during a lull in the action, the strip announcer egged the crowd on to chant for a rematch between the Dart Pioneer and Don Nicholson's 409, for which the guys were able to do a masterly quick rebuild in time for Jim Thornton to take Nichol in that match, the results of which were photographed and duly published in all kinds of car mags. In spite of the fact that I long advocated that the Torqeflite was a better performer than a manual, I fell for the 4-speed image as I had one in both my '65 426-S Sport Fury and my '67 440 CID/375 HP Dodge R/T.
W. --
Interstingly, the shift lever for that 3-speed manual was floor-mounted in all the big Chryslers as I believe the division didn't want tool up for a special steering column for just the cheap Newports and Windsors. So, if that G did have a manual trans, it would have a floor-mounted shifter.
Joe
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 6502
Location: Newark, Texas (Fort Worth) | http://www.2040-cars.com/Chrysler/Newport/1961-chrysler-newport-sed...
http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=21721&...
http://www.allpar.com/squads/police-cars/enforcer.html
http://collectorcarcorner.blogspot.com/2009/04/rare-1962-chrysler-n...
Edited by mstrug 2015-11-08 6:20 PM
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Location: Parts Unknown | I have written ad nauseum here about my old 60 Fireflite, equipped with 383
crossram, and 3-speed on the floor.
The more this hobby digs up in research and background intel, the more I realize
what a massive blunder it was to sell that car. Back when I was running it, no one
knew any of this stuff and know one cared about some old finned car. How I wish I
had a copy of the title or the VIN/data tags for it now, just to figure out what that
car was and what it might contribute to our collective knowledge.
Knowing little-to-nothing about 300's, when did the 3-onda-flo' replace the 4-speed
Pont-a-mousson as the manual trans option ???
You are correct in the general acknowledgement that automatics were still regarded
as a bad thing, but we must remind ourselves that it was the Torqueflite that changed
automatic technology and performance from the old slush boxes to something that
would outperform a guy rowing a manual. But in 1961, it still wasn't proven enough
to become accepted by the rank and file.
I am with you in sticking with the old school think that the manual is somehow "better",
even if I am deluding myself that they can outrun a similarly built car with a Torqueflite.
The sounds and feel and just being that much more connected with the driving experience
makes me prefer the stick. THAT, and stick cars from this period are so dammed rare.
I bore easily, and pushbuttons, while novel, are found in 99.9% of all these cars. I want
something different ! 
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Location: Alaska | Hey Doc, I owned a 60 Plymouth with the factory 3 speed and 361 HP and it was a fairly quick car, but mine came with the BW T-85 trans. which was stronger than the 61-up Chrysler unit. Do you remember what trans. was in your Desoto? |
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Posts: 1288
| 58 --
Was the shift lever on your '60 still the "three-on-the-tree"? Way back when, I used to tangle with a '60 Belvie 2-dr H/T with the manual, but he didn't like the factory linkage and tried to get a Hurst floor linkage, but it wasn't available for Plymouths yet. I think even the Petty Plymouths had the column unit.
Joe |
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Location: Parts Unknown | I can only assume it was a T-85. It never came apart beyond work on the clutch and
pressure plate. I would not have known a T-85 from anything else. It was (and remains)
the only stick FL car I have ever worked extensively on. It broke 10" clutches (three in
as many times I took it out) until I took the parts to Seattle Brake & Clutch, who sold me
an 11 or 12 inch clutch and a very funky pressure plate that allowed the larger clutch to
clear. It was strong enough to lift the front right wheel off the ground on hard acceleration.
Never had another issue with it.
First gear was a bit sluggish, but 2nd really shot the car off like a rocket. By the time I
got to third is was moving too fast to really jerk the car. First and reverse were non-synchro.
side levers, not a top loader.
Does that say "T-85" definitively ?
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: milano, italy | the 4 speed trans used in the F was very expensive to purchase and adapt in the car, that's why it was used in just 9 or so cars. The T85 used in the 60 Plymouth was a truck trans, no sinchro on first gear, and was a clumn shift only. I had one in my 60 Fury conv with a 361, and it was a bear to drive. 300 G with 3 speed trans were more common than the F with 4 speed, all parts were avaible from stock, and there were several built. Besides this, the engine in manual trans G was the same as the auto trans cars, no special parts, so performance is the same. I remeber seeing one in Don Petty yard, and there are several registered with the 300 club. Value is same as automatic car
Edited by antonellomopar 2015-11-09 2:03 AM
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Veteran
Posts: 256
Location: Chicago | The 3-speed transmission available in the 300G was a Chrysler-built A-745. It was a heavy duty trans, new for 1961. There was nothing wrong with it, unless not having a synchro first gear is "wrong" (or you are a Ramcharger, I guess.) It was used for many years thereafter. They did promote it a bit for the 300G but I haven't seen many either. It was standard on Newports and Windsors, but I have a copy of some ordering code info that says that those models would be shipped with torqueflites unless specified. So, that's probably why they aren't that common in any '61 Chryslers.
So, yes, this would be an option with the 375-hp engine, though the AMA specs show it was the transmission for the 400-hp version. This was an exclusive build for Daytona Beach racers, much like the 400-hp Fs.
I agree about going for the unusual stuff like the manual, but its fun to see the general public freak out over the pushbuttons. |
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Location: Alaska | Hate to steal a thread I bought my 60 Ply. in 68 and it had the factory column shifter, which worked O.K. I put this drive train in my 57 Fury when the 60 was wrecked (my fault) and had no trouble buying a Hurst shifter for it which worked great. The Borg Warner T-85 was a strong trans. and even though it was used in some trucks, it was also used in many different models of cars. It has a 9 bolt, curved bottom side cover that looks just like the BW T-10. The synchros IMO are stronger than the Chrysler A-745. |
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Location: Parts Unknown | R41HP - 2015-11-10 7:35 AM
but its fun to see the general public freak out over the pushbuttons.
====================================
Do you really get that much "freaking" ? I find the FL cars tend to just attract
dudes that want to debate about "the facts" or spew forth their stupidity about
how Chevy or Ford was better.
It's largely why my FL cars are mothballed. All they were was man magnets,
with a heavy pull for the dimmer examples. 
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Location: Houston | Most comments I get about the pushbuttons are from women. They seem to think it's a 'neat' feature, one that somehow appeals to the feminine psyche. I guess we don't have to try to hard to come up with why women might understand buttons more than levers. .... |
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Elite Veteran
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Location: tailFinland | 4 speed Pont-A-Mausson transmissions were installed at engineering garage at the Chrysler Jefferson Plant after the car was built on the production line. They made these cars to race at Daytona speed week.
So actually no 300Fs came from the production line with 4 speed trans.
You can read all you need to know here: http://www.allpar.com/cars/chrysler/chrysler-300-at-daytona-beach.h...
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Posts: 2524
Location: Houston |
From the 300F article referenced above:
"It is the consensus of all knowledgeable connoisseurs of Chrysler 300 Letter Cars that the 300 F 4-speed cars are the ultimate collectible; the pinnacle of production, the very embodiment of the Letter Car Idea Bob Rodgers had, simply put: the utmost, supreme, ideal, transcendent, ultimate, preeminently desirable 300. So why don't we all have one in our garage?"
Not so sure about that.....
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Location: Parts Unknown | To answer that question from my own, personal perspective ....
I love the 300F .... right up to that #@! toilet seat 
That being the only drawback, the F is just plain majestic in a way none of the
others could quite measure up.
The downside ? Not so much a downside, as a preference to the more playful
color sweeps on the earlier cars, the more "atomic" styled interior fabrics and
seat/interior patterns, and an intangible and hard-to-find-words-for "essence"
.... basically, the 300F is a very conservative, sophisticated design ... a 56 CRL
or 57 Fireflite would be the opposite of this ...
Combine this with a poor choice of parents (no trust fund) and a subsequently
limited amount of shop space, I found myself forced to take this all under a micro-
scope and pare my top choices down to the 58 Fireflite and the 58 Plaza.
A lot of 60 Chryslers survive, especially the 300's. I find myself further drawn
to cars you just never see. I am always pleased to see a 60 Chrysler of any model,
but for my own garage, I will pass and just go with the 58 Plymouth and DeSoto.
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Posts: 13054
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | Actually I agree with you on the toilet seat lid Doc - I have split emotions for that design and I like the clean lines of the normal deck lid more.
This would be the ultimate 300F for you Doc; special order for deck lid http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=34263&...
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Expert 5K+
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Location: northern germany | Doctor DeSoto - 2015-11-09 9:56 PM
the more "atomic" styled interior fabrics and
seat/interior patterns,
please show me a 300 with that feature. i think the $$$ cars never had that "atomic charm". thats why i prefer the cheaper models. |
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Location: Under the X in Texas | Looks like I'm late to this 'party' regarding a possible discovery of a 300F Special Gran Turismo. And turned out not to be any how. I was out of town a few day.
After 23 years of ownership, I sold the one I owned in April of 2014. It is in a museum in Texas which I visited on this trip.
The vast majority of research and all the documentation I had accumulated went with the car. I'd be happy to answer any questions either in PM or here.
Wayne Graefen
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 DSCN4741.JPG (177KB - 109 downloads)
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Posts: 1288
| Doc --
I don't know about your neck of the woods, but out here in the wilds of Colorado my Big-Tailed Beast with its ram-inducted engine, "Aero" steering wheel, swivel seats, "typewriter" trans, "Sky-Hi" rear window, etc., has car aficienados pouring all over it and virtually all comments are very favorable. To wit:
1. At a Good Guys Show, I parked it next to a quasi-restored (too much chrome) '64 Vette when some dude in a '64 Goat parked one additional space away from me. He rather slyly said, "You don't mind if I save a place for a friend, do you?" This friend turned up in a red '71 Chevelle SS with the 400 HP LS-5 454 CID mill. Near the end of the day, I overheard Chevelle guy say to his compadres, "I can't see why the old piece of MOPAR c*** gets all kinds of attention, but people ignore our cars." It did my heart good.
2. Just this year, I was parked across from a beautiful black '60 Impala droptop, so I went over and said to the owner, "Since we both have '60s, why don't we put on a little 'speed contest' for the folks?" He just replied, "Oh no. I know all about your car."
3. At another show, my older son and I parked together. He has a 427 '69 Yenko clone, but he said, "Dad, the young kids like my car, but the guys that know automobiles are sure attracted to yours."
As you can see, I tend to follow the biblical admonition not to hide my lamp under a bushel and I find that people are especially interested in the fact that I had a similar car back in '60-'64. The most amusing aspects are the way the guys in the Stangs and triple nickle Chevs try to surrepticiously look it over and the way the GTO fans shudder when I tell them that any streetable '64 Goat was "meat on the table" for that car in the the '60s.
As to styling, I like the exterior of my C better than that of the F since the former was based on the smaller Windsor and is just a bit cleaner than the later F. However, the magnificent interior of the F simply eclipses the rather mundane seating of the C and I love the "toilet seat" or "birdbath" continental kit (even though Uncle Tom McCahill ordered his F with the New Yorker deck lid -- he hated it!). I wish the Beast had it (though on the Plymouth it was a much cheaper version). As a whole, I think any letter car is the Duesenberg of the latter half of the 20th century with the 300F Special the equivalent of the Model J.
Joe |
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Location: Under the X in Texas | Where is the "Like" button for Joe's comment? |
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Regular
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| Speaking of 300Fs (413 w/ Torqueflite): http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2015/11/05/hemmings-find-of-the-... |
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300F 4spd????
