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Location: Valley Forge, Pa. | As most regulars here know, I have had brake issues sence day 1, over 9 years ago. Again the list is too extensive to say how many garages, how much time, parts and money I have dumped into my brakes with no real improvement. This is still a brake issue but not the same.
A while back it started, I would drive around and then stop somewheres. When I came out, the Rt. rear brake would sometimes grab. This got worse and worse to the point that now, as soon as I would go forward that brake would lock. Back up and try again and sometimes it would do it again or just sauwk for a few seconds and then all would return to normal. The wheel would get hot if I braked often but would cool on longer drive. It would really groan like a big rig when I harder stopped.
I figured the groaning was dust so, and for the very first time, I removed that drum. The rear brakes were always serviced by a garage because I didn't have a puller. I have had them put copper neveseize on the axle and it came off with some fair pressure and a nice "snap".
There was a fair amount of dust and I took these pictures. Not really knowledgeable of brake wear but there is little wear on the rear shoe and only in the center. The drum has nice smooth/even wear. The brakes don't pulse so I am guessing they are round. Do all the parts look correct and in the right place? What is the difference in the shoe surface length. They look almost the same. I know one side should be longer than the other but will that affect anything other than the overall life of the shoes?
EVERY part of the brake system has been replaced at least twice. Apparently they drag and will relase over time but what happens when it gets hot? They don't relase while setting only while driving. Once it has set for a long time it will cool down and then they don't drag.
Looks like the front brake has cracks. Probably from the heat?
Thanks yet again for any help r suggestions. I was given the suggestion to just junk the car but I have to believe there is a solution to my brakes?!?!?
Desperate! Nah, that sounds desperate,
Karl.
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Expert
Posts: 1348
Location: Valley Forge, Pa. | Obviously by my opening subject line, I was in a hurry. I see the same subject is addressed earlier, so I will see where that one goes. Thanks anyway,
Karl. |
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Temporarily suspended to cool off
Posts: 316
| Looks ok, just be sure the adjustment procedure is being followed exactly correctly. Now that's probably the issue here, the total contral brake system is really sensative on which way the adjusters are turned! The adjuster cams will cause the brakes to tighten up when turned in either direction, however, if turned in the wrong direction they make for brakes that detonate when you touch the pedal! On the rear, it's even more confusing as they don't get turned the same direction. If I remember right, adjuster towards the front of the car gets turned towards the car, and the rear adjuster gets turned to the rear of the car... or maybe it's the opposite of that, I don't recall exactly. It's something like that.
http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Lit/Master/112/Page25.htm
those are the instructions for the total contact brakes, which are pretty much the same as the total control brakes.
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Posts: 1348
Location: Valley Forge, Pa. | Makes sence what you have said by looking at the pictures.
I'm still not totally sure what is happening though. So the front shoe is slightly over adjusted and rubbing although I get no signs or sounds of it dragging while driving? Then the slight rub heats things up and when I stop for a bit, the heat transfers throughout and things expand cause the grabbing after it sets? What would make it improve as soon as I get rolling again?
The rear shoe is barely touching, so, should I adjust the front shoe away and the back shoe on? Will adjusting the back shoe ONLY cause the front to ride better when braking or the front is totally independent? In other words, I have to adjust both shoes?
Thanks for your help,
Karl. |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Posts: 13054
 
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | The rear shoe is either not having the same radius as the drum, or is moving out from the centerplane when you brake - the wear pattern should not look like this - it must be the same full Contact as it seems you have on the front shoe. The brake springs should actually be mounted in the inner hole on the brake shoe, not in the loop - this pulls the shoe outwards. for earlier cars it was recommended to mount the springs as you did.
The front shoe adjuster on the rear wheel must be adjusted in the same direction as the wheel turns in forward motion and the rear shoe adjuster on the rear wheel must be adjusted in the same direction as the wheel turns in backwards motion. |
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Temporarily suspended to cool off
Posts: 316
| yep, and the adjustment needs to be balanced. If you get one side tighter than they other they detonate.
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| <p>no his return springs are on correct late 59 to 62 are 3 plateform shoes, springs go on loops pre 59 springs on in hole and have different springs, u need to lay down under your car and ajust your shoes your self, ajust the front shoes till it stop against the drum , then turn ajuster in oposite direction untill wheel is free to spin then ajust the rear shoe the same , also u need some greese on the backing plate raised portion, theres 3 spots that the shoes ride on specific to your 1960, with out the greese your shoes wont slide , and maybe getting stuck, i dont think anyone should own one of these cars unless there willing to get dirty and fix themselves , bringing your 60, to some punk at a brake place is just asking for trouble, if u dont undrstand how your brakes work, how the hell is the punk at the oil change place ever ganna know , its 200015 u need to get your hands dirty, also your rear rubber brake hose that connects to your junction block should not be dangaling there, it should be suspended up above in a bracket with a c clip securing it that looks funky to me , dangerious car u have, </p>
Edited by 196061SAVOY 2015-11-08 12:14 AM
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Expert
Posts: 3575
Location: Netherlands | While you're at it, make a nice 45-60 degree bevel on all the edges of the brakeshoes.
This will counteract the grabbing a bit better.
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Expert
Posts: 2312
Location: Arizona | To me that rear shoe needs to be arc ground to better fit the drum. The whole surface really should be getting used, not just the center half of it. I would see if I could find some place in town that has a brake shoe machine that you can take the shoes and drums to and have them arc grind those shoes to fit the drum. If you wanted to go farther with it and you could find a place that relines old shoes, talk to them about what kind of linings they might recommend that are least likely to be grabby and have them reline the shoes and arc grind them to the drums. |
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Expert
Posts: 1348
Location: Valley Forge, Pa. | Pulled the other rear wheel yesterday and shows same wear with front shoe well worn and rear has middle contact. I've been GM until this car and always had a larger primary shoe for the rear and a smaller for the front. All of the shoes sets that I now have, have the same length including an NOS set. I read in another thread here about the longer and shorter shoes. Is there such a thing as a shorter shoe on these cars? If so, what is the downside of equal sized shoes?
I only had a half hour yesterday but I quickly tried the adjusters. The front would move with some effort but the rear appears to be stuck. Maybe not but I didn't know how hard they should be and didn't want to break anything. I couldn't see what they actually are and I don't see any pictures in my shop manual of the actual adjuster. Is it just a cam in there? Can they be serviced or will hitting them with WD-40 make them too loose? |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Posts: 13054
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | The brake shoes are the right ones, far as I can tell from the pictures. The adjuster is just a cam that has a slight resistance that will keep it in the adjusted position. With a normal spanner it shall be possible to adjust them. You can spray down some WD-40 without problem. The cams does not have a stop, with the drum and shoes removed you can turn them around completely. |
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Expert
Posts: 1348
Location: Valley Forge, Pa. | I've made slight adjustements to the adjusters several different times and nothing changed. I finally unadjusted them to the point of least resistance and it still locks up everytime I stop for a bit.
I don't understand how I put 5000 miles on these shoes with no issues and now this. You would think they have worn down enough to have a greated distance from the drum. I pulled the drums and cleaned out the dust and cleaned the shoe surface and drum surfaces as well.
I had this same issue on both sides early last year and replaced the springs with no change so I replaced the shoes and that seemed to fix it until now. I've got another set of shoes but this can't be right replacing them every few thousand miles or so?
I've replaced the rear wheel cyls. 2 times, I've tried 6 different MCs, 3 different proportioning valves, tried each with and with out the 10 lb check valve, replaced the drums, and replaced all the lines in between. I still have poor brakes and now the one won't stop locking up.
I really like this car but how can such a simple system be this difficult? |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Posts: 13054
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | The brakes on our cars is absolutely not rocket science - they're pretty simple to work with and to understand. Still, once and a while there pops up problems that are not really logic and easy to explain. That is with the standard brakes. Then I have read a lot about unimaginable problems if the brakes are modified - the major part that made a disc brake modification had and/or has problems. Best way to go seems to take Everything from a more modern car and mount it, discs, calipers,master cylinder and rear brakes anlong with all other parts. So far I've Heard no one having any problems if the go that way.
This doesn't help you at all I'm afraid and you had a very hard experience with your brakes.
For me, it sounds like the diameters of the m/c and rear cylinders don't match up - this is very important.
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Expert
Posts: 1348
Location: Valley Forge, Pa. | Kept playing around with the adjusters and could not get that brake to stop slamming on when hot, so yesterday I put new shoes on. Never had to do this type of brake set up and return springs. Looks a lot simpler than my GM cars. Just pulling the drum and not the hub and I had the shoes off in a minute and I thought that this would be a breeze. I spent the next 2 hours putting the return springs on with every tool and borrowed brake tools at my service. Removing the hub gave me a better shot. There was no way I could get them on with the simple thin tool like they show in the shop manual. I used one just like pictured and just bent it.
If you notice in the pictures, my springs have more coils than the ones pictured in the shop manual. There is absolutly no way these could be weak and causing my issues. How many coils are in your spring for an 11 x 2" shoe for a 60 Plymouth?
Shame they don't make the spring with one end having more of a hook so it won't pop off as easy. A couple times while prying away, I guess I pulled the spring away a little too far and it shot out into my yard in the leaves. Fortunately, I had a metal dectector handy and found it. I just wonder if I have the correct springs. Do they really need to be that stiff? A full face mask and body armour might be the safe way.
Test drive and there is no hanging up but the pedal is even softer than usual. Will adjust a little more but one time I had to stop a little harder and the brakes hung up a little. Tapped the pedal and they came back. That almost seems like an MC issue again but its new. After 6 MCs I hope not. Why can't I or anyone else find the answer to this brake system?
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Expert
Posts: 1730
Location: Michigan | Go back and look at that imperial site. Go through the other pages. It mentions models with 5 & 6 coil springs on the rears. It also looks like some shims are missing on your car. Note the pics in the service manual. I would check to see how loose those rear shoes in the slots they ride in. It appears as if the one shoe is twisting causing the uneven wear. This shouldn't happen with this design so the question is, why. As mentioned above its hanging up on the inboard side. Is there brake grease there to allow for proper movement against the slide points on the backing plate?
Edited by Beltran 2015-11-27 11:53 AM
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Posts: 13054
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | The tool to use for the return springs is a bradawl - once you get the hang of it, the springs are mounted/demounted in a blink of an eye.
I looked at your rear centerplanes again and there's definitely something wrong with the "Square spring" that holds the return springs - they are out of position on both sides. Check and compare with Picture below.
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what can yo tell aobut these brake pictures?
