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Forward Look Technical Discussions -> The Exhaust Pipe - Modification & Performance | Message format |
ttotired |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8444 Location: Perth Australia | This is for Polybun I have had (and have similar ideas to you about a blower, but as you will see in my mock ups, bonnet (hood) protrusion will be an issue I dont know how people get to put explanations of each picture individually, so bear with me a little I mocked this up before I got the blower base plate, so its not included in the pictures with measurements The intake is a factory 2x4, but you need an alloy 1x4 or 2x4 to weld it like the picture I got the plate and a blow off valve from Dyers (I think) and they will make the manifold for you, but you have to supply the donor manifold I am not sure about the 6V71 blowers, but this is a 671 Anyway, enough banter (P3100158s.JPG) (bonnet protusion 001.jpg) (bonnet protusion 003.jpg) (poly blower 009s.JPG) (poly blower 011s.JPG) (IMG_0114.JPG) Attachments ---------------- P3100158s.JPG (109KB - 247 downloads) bonnet protusion 001.jpg (108KB - 234 downloads) bonnet protusion 003.jpg (53KB - 233 downloads) poly blower 009s.JPG (99KB - 235 downloads) poly blower 011s.JPG (94KB - 249 downloads) IMG_0114.JPG (76KB - 232 downloads) | ||
ttotired |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8444 Location: Perth Australia | The top picture is an LA setup You can get a plate made (I have seen one on ebay) that looked to be about 1/2"thick that just bolted onto a 2x4 manifold, but it wont really work using a factory manifold because the blower centerline (front to back) has to be parallel with the crankshaft, so you need to make that adapter plate into a wedge and space for the blow off needs to be there as well I have the blower base here (but no blower now, I borrowed that) and the thought was to make a wedge out of that and weld a plate across the bottom to adapt it to the factory 2x4 Biggest drama for me, is if I make it all up and fit it, I will never be allowed (by the coppers/government) to drive it on the road The mock up on the plymouth was taken at the measurements as pictured above This is the underside view of the manifold as supplied (topcasting-r671-3.jpg) Attachments ---------------- topcasting-r671-3.jpg (42KB - 246 downloads) | ||
Polybun |
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Temporarily suspended to cool off Posts: 316 | Hood potrusion is a non issue, I have a spare hood. In fact the hood on the car is pretty rusted out so cutting it up isn't a big deal! The blower I have is probably way way way too big. Pretty sure it's an 8v-71 super charger. That said, with one that big, even if it is worn out it'll make boost! All that nonsense is down the road, I've had the car since may and have still yet to drive it on the road. Now the only thing stopping me is lack of a drivers licence. I had one like 15 years ago, but never bothered renewing it because I didn't have the money for a car, and haven't needed a car. But, my back is getting worse, my patience is thinner than ever, so cycling and using public transportation is something I should phase out of my life at this point. I've paid my dues, did my good for the environment, not back to destroying it! The first modification to the engine will be the addition of a weind aluminum intake, then an MSD atomic EFI setup. After that is all working properly, Maybe a pro charger, or maybe twin turbo. | ||
ttotired |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8444 Location: Perth Australia | Ahhh but its fun to dream The Weiand manifold is what was recommended to me by Dyers to use as the donor, but the only one that was available at the time was a NOS one that was somewhere around $500 and I didnt think it was really going to be worth the $5500 for the manifold + $250 for the adaptor + whatever to marry the 2 together (all US$, so add about another 30% for me + shipping) Then came the rest of it It would have made a great engine, but at around $10000.00 just to get it on and driven (LA blower stuff fits to make up the drive system) + whatever I needed to get it working properly (cam, pistons ect ect) and then it only being able to be driven "off road", I shelved the idea Thought of doing it to the buick as well because the engine sits much lower in the engine bay and the manifold is very easy to make, but I think it will still stick up to much for the government to allow it B*stards One day it will happen to something, its been a childhood dream that I have not fulfilled 8V71 would be fine, but would have to be under driven, but that has the advantage of the charge air not getting so hot, which is a problem with smaller ones like a 471 or one of a fuel injected GM V6 Anyway, as I said, nice to dream | ||
Polybun |
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Temporarily suspended to cool off Posts: 316 | well, the dream of dreams is for this car to actually run at bonneville. So, engine mods will be kept at a minimum for now in favor of getting all the nessasary safety equipment in place. I don't even care if the car will only go 120mph right now. Just to get out there and make some runs is far more important. C/CPRO will keep me from running electronic injection, so a carburator has to be used there. well pressure feeding a carburator is a pain so.... I dunno. This all years down the road, I've got time for now to sit back and just enjoy what I have. | ||
ttotired |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8444 Location: Perth Australia | Thats what its all about I am a glutton for punishment though, thats why I have 3 old cars and only one going so far The plymouth is not really getting any bites, so I can see a new plan forming (A bit ratty), after that, who knows That plymouth has changed plans so many times while I was finishing the dodge I had to leave it alone so I get one plan going thats realistic to stick to The dodge was easy, It was always a "just get it legal" build once it was actually going to get done It was originally going to be cut up for the plymouth For salt racing, dont you want to get it to rev like crazy? Things like electronic ignition and heavy valve springs and a light flywheel with a manual box would be the important (building blocks) first? I dont think we really have much like that here, so not really sure | ||
Polybun |
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Temporarily suspended to cool off Posts: 316 | ttotired - 2015-12-17 7:04 PM For salt racing, dont you want to get it to rev like crazy? Things like electronic ignition and heavy valve springs and a light flywheel with a manual box would be the important (building blocks) first? I dont think we really have much like that here, so not really sure Not really. You just gear the car to stay in it's power band. But sure, a swap to a manual trans to lessen loss in the drive line would be good, but, not vital. The thing is, setting records isn't a requirment of land speed racing. Having a good time is. Now on the downside, since the C/CPRO record is well over 200mph I have to build the car safety wise to those specifications. 1" lugs, miles of tubing for a cage, etc. etc. It's a big job. Incidently I already have electronic ignition on the car. I received a Heathkit CD ingition box as payment for some work I did for a friend. So, I got to build my own electronic ignition. It's actually a rather clever setup, in that it can be bypassed at the push of a button and the car returned to running on points should the electronics fail. | ||
ttotired |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8444 Location: Perth Australia | The problem with CD ignition of that type is that although the switching of the coil is done electronically (which is good) it is still triggered by the points The problem with that is contact float and bounce which happens at high rpm Basically, the cam in the distributor at high rpm works like a ski ramp which alters the timing and reduces dwell time, thats where full electronic ignition comes in Because there is no mechanical contact in a fully electronic system (be it hall effect or luminition) its rpm tolerance is almost limitless It gives the cleanest spark possible for a distributor based ignition system, only way to get better is to go to a computer controlled ignition and individual coils mounted in the spark plugs as its done on the latest fuel injected engines Not impossible to do on any engine, but rather impracticable for the slight gains you would get on an engine not designed or built to do F1 engine rpm Pretty much the same as for indexing the spark plugs, gains are possible, but not huge Weight savings will help a lot more Personally though, I would forget the CD ignition, it was a great improvement as a budget way to make your points last until the rubbing block wore away to not much, but as full electronic ignition systems became more main stream and cheaper, the CDI systems fell out of favour if full electronics could be fitted or retro fitted (like a pertronics type kit) One thing that is a positive for the CDI system is the adjusability of the dwell time thats factory set in all full electronic systems (except for computerized electronic systems that can be tuned using a computer) Only way to adjust those is by varying the size of the holes in the chopper plate for luminition or the gaps in the hall effect The things that will limit rpms are contact bounce from the points, valve float and fuel supply and exhaust including cylinder scavenging and combustion chamber dilution I am probably getting a little carried away here with full race engine considerations that might not be in your plans, but getting a car up to a certain speed is easy, to get it to go that bit faster after that is where the silly stuff (like indexing plugs) comes into it Bad idea showing me go fast stuff | ||
Polybun |
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Temporarily suspended to cool off Posts: 316 | ttotired - 2015-12-17 9:10 PM The problem with CD ignition of that type is that although the switching of the coil is done electronically (which is good) it is still triggered by the points The problem with that is contact float and bounce which happens at high rpm Basically, the cam in the distributor at high rpm works like a ski ramp which alters the timing and reduces dwell time, thats where full electronic ignition comes in Because there is no mechanical contact in a fully electronic system (be it hall effect or luminition) its rpm tolerance is almost limitless It gives the cleanest spark possible for a distributor based ignition system, only way to get better is to go to a computer controlled ignition and individual coils mounted in the spark plugs as its done on the latest fuel injected engines Not impossible to do on any engine, but rather impracticable for the slight gains you would get on an engine not designed or built to do F1 engine rpm Pretty much the same as for indexing the spark plugs, gains are possible, but not huge Weight savings will help a lot more Personally though, I would forget the CD ignition, it was a great improvement as a budget way to make your points last until the rubbing block wore away to not much, but as full electronic ignition systems became more main stream and cheaper, the CDI systems fell out of favour if full electronics could be fitted or retro fitted (like a pertronics type kit) One thing that is a positive for the CDI system is the adjusability of the dwell time thats factory set in all full electronic systems (except for computerized electronic systems that can be tuned using a computer) Only way to adjust those is by varying the size of the holes in the chopper plate for luminition or the gaps in the hall effect The things that will limit rpms are contact bounce from the points, valve float and fuel supply and exhaust including cylinder scavenging and combustion chamber dilution I am probably getting a little carried away here with full race engine considerations that might not be in your plans, but getting a car up to a certain speed is easy, to get it to go that bit faster after that is where the silly stuff (like indexing plugs) comes into it Bad idea showing me go fast stuff sure going to magnetic trigger would be nice, but, I use what I have. CD is still the ignition of choice because you don't have dwell time. You aren't always applying current to the coil so there is no dwell. Also all of your performance ignition setups are CD. What do you think an MSD box is doing? On the mopar electronic ignition setup changing the gap on the trigger has no affect on dwell. Dwell is controlled by the ECU. If you want to change dwell time, you change the ECU. | ||
ttotired |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8444 Location: Perth Australia | Not quite I was going to write another book, but thought this might be better http://spdispark.com/pages/frequently-asked-questions-dwell | ||
Powerflite |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9684 Location: So. Cal | Roots style superchargers are not very efficient. Going with a centrifugal style supercharger like a pro-charger will get you more boost and lower intake temperatures with less power drag. It also gives you the option to use an inter-cooler and doesn't require cutting your hood. It is better in all respects except possibly for raw looks. | ||
Polybun |
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Temporarily suspended to cool off Posts: 316 | the roots blowers make more noise too... hmm, hey, do the peet jackson gear drive setups fit the polyhead? :D | ||
Polybun |
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Temporarily suspended to cool off Posts: 316 | You still don't have dwell time with CD igntion. You have charge time for the capacitors but no dwell time. And again, the gap on the pickup coil has no affect on dwell on mopars, that's all down to the ECU. I don't know what you're trying to prove here, but it's probably wrong. | ||
ttotired |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8444 Location: Perth Australia | Did you read the web page? Dwell is the time a coil needs to charge/build up its magnetic flux Dwell time is how long that takes Dwell angle is the amount of camshaft degrees the contacts are closed, changing this, alters how much time the coil has to build up its charge, as does rpm You set dwell angle at a given rpm, this so optimum dwell time is given to the coil to charge As long as you have at least one coil on your engine, you have dwell If you use points (including the electronic assisted system you have), you will have to deal with dwell angle Nothing more I can say | ||
Polybun |
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Temporarily suspended to cool off Posts: 316 | only if your using inductive ignition. Capacitive discharge does not saturate the coil. there is no dwell time with CD ignition. It instead issues a high voltage pulse. The points system I have does not have dwell time. As it does not charge the coil. You don't know what the f**k your talking about. | ||
ttotired |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8444 Location: Perth Australia | Obviously | ||
Polybun |
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Temporarily suspended to cool off Posts: 316 | the points are only used as a trigger event, and nothing more. Yes, point bounce is still an issue, dwell time is not. Anyway, back on the subject of boosted poly's. Looking at the LA paxton setup, and I think I'm sold on it. Boost is good, but even better, it comes with an alternator bracket as part of the kit. So, I get boost, and I get an easy place to mount an alternator. Then on top of that it's spaced out for LA pullies... so I can put an LA harmonic balancer on the engine and use the LA pulley set. Well then that means I can use the LA saginaw power steering pump setup. It'll all take a bit of modification but should work out reasonably painlessly. | ||
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