|
|
Regular
Posts: 69
Location: Northern Ireland | A few pictures of my brake conversion maybe of interest to the Europeans,it uses Peugot 306/Citroen calipers and a bit of 10mm steel and two pairs of Suzuki Jimny discs.
 (100_1958.jpg)
 (100_1959.jpg)
 (100_1960.jpg)
 (100_1962.jpg)
 (100_1835.jpg)
 (100_1839.jpg)
Attachments
----------------
 100_1958.jpg (178KB - 306 downloads)
100_1959.jpg (216KB - 252 downloads)
100_1960.jpg (246KB - 265 downloads)
100_1962.jpg (245KB - 247 downloads)
100_1835.jpg (223KB - 256 downloads)
100_1839.jpg (249KB - 251 downloads)
|
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 395
Location: Netherlands | That's pretty neat with the dual calipers on the front...What's the disc diameter? They look kind off small... |
|
| |
|
Elite Veteran
Posts: 916
Location: Pau, S-W France | Interesting !!
What year/model for the Peugeot & Suzuki parts ? The Imperial hubs bolt w/o machining on Suzuki discs ?
About hydraulic, you have a dual master cylinder ?
Do you have other pics (of the "special shaped" plate, i think it's the caliper support) ? (If you prefere please send by email ) |
|
| |
|
Regular
Posts: 69
Location: Northern Ireland | Phil the discs required a few mm machined out of the center I bored the wheel stud holes out to 22mm this kept it centered on the rear of the hub it also needed a 5mm wheel spacer betwen the disc and the hub to center it on the caliper(front only)
The calipers came of diesel 306s and Zsaras about 2000 ish and any Jimny disc should do .I have a few more caliper brackets or could scan them if you want, the mc is of a 67 Newport I think will have to check if I had to do it again I would go Hydro boost as spent as much getting the booster rebuilt.
This conversion doesn't alter the steering at all .
Regards
Stephen
Edited by slow2learn 2012-02-19 10:35 AM
 (100_1838.jpg)
 (100_1842.jpg)
Attachments
----------------
100_1838.jpg (244KB - 236 downloads)
100_1842.jpg (234KB - 254 downloads)
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2490
Location: Kansas City, KS | Interesting indeed!
I forget that other countries use copper brake lines
very nice looking Imperial too, that color is great. |
|
| |
|
Elite Veteran
Posts: 916
Location: Pau, S-W France | Thanks for the pic but i remember a major problem , i have 14" wheels so i think the disc will be too large for this conversion ! When i ask to AAJ brakes there was the same problem, they have kits for Imperial but only for 15" wheels. |
|
| |
|
Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | With 4-wheel discs, will there be any need to proportion the brake pressure application between the front & the rear wheels?
What about the size/length of the pressure rod involved in the selection of a particular dual pot (or not-) master cylinder, with
4-wheel discs?
|
|
| |
|
Regular
Posts: 69
Location: Northern Ireland | Neil don't know yet about the proportioning valve etc but will work it out as I go along I find the best way is to solve 1 problem at a time and ask for help when I get stuck should be up and running by the end of the week will let you know if it works.(for me if it can go wrong it will go wrong)calipers are all the same so hopefully end up about 70%front to 30% rear
Phil I'm not sure about the 14'' rims I ran into problems selecting calipers with the 15'' due to the internal shape of the rim but it will clear 160mm or 6 1/4'' from the centre.
Disc size 290mm
Thanks about the colour opinion seems to be devided but I like it
Edited by slow2learn 2012-02-19 3:39 PM
|
|
| |
|
Elite Veteran
Posts: 916
Location: Pau, S-W France | When you say 160 mm it's as i note on the pic above ?
Just a question, it's not a problem to have the dual calipers not diagonally opposite ?
If you have a view of the front disc with the wheel on, please post it !
Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2012-02-19 4:40 PM
 (100_1958.jpg)
Attachments
----------------
100_1958.jpg (59KB - 257 downloads)
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2490
Location: Kansas City, KS | Phil_the_frenchie - 2012-02-19 12:04 PM
Thanks for the pic but i remember a major problem , i have 14" wheels so i think the disc will be too large for this conversion ! When i ask to AAJ brakes there was the same problem, they have kits for Imperial but only for 15" wheels.
I bought a kit from Roger at AAJ several years ago for my '58. He said they would fit 14" wheels but I have not installed the kit.
Now you got me wondering if I have the right parts... |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 395
Location: Netherlands | There's no problem with mounting calipers not opposite of each other, I do this dual caliper set-up regularly on motorcycles and have done 3 caliper set-ups on one disc as well...
In fact this dual set up makes for very steady behaviour while braking. A single caliper at the rear side of the disc would make the wheel want to travel upwards (Nose of the car coming down) while breaking.
A caliper on the front side of the disc would have the opposite effect, wheel wants to travel downwards (keeps the nose up)
This setup would have those forces cancel each other out, I like it a lot, well done!
The brake bias should indeed end up somewhere like 70/30 without an adjustable or residual valve somewhere, Do you think the MC has got the capacity to fill those 4 pots before the pedal is on the floor?
11.4 inches is a pretty big disc to fit inside a 14" rim, i know the 11" AAJ set up does but only just...
Good luck, please keep us posted on this one! |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 1218
Location: Warren, Michigan | I'm not familiar with the dual caliper setup but agree that its a great idea. How does the plumbing to those work? Are they daisy chained together or does the line T off somewhere? Do you need to do anything special to ensure both calipers on the one wheel work in unison? When you service the pads on something like that do the pads wear evenly or does the front or back take more abuse? Thanks and keep the pics and updates coming. |
|
| |
|
Elite Veteran
Posts: 916
Location: Pau, S-W France | KcImperial - 2012-02-19 11:40 PM
I bought a kit from Roger at AAJ several years ago for my '58. He said they would fit 14" wheels but I have not installed the kit.
Now you got me wondering if I have the right parts...
Here was the reply about the "super kit" sent by Roger some months ago. Problem is that Imperail has larger spindle so you can't install 11" discs (Aspen) but 11 3/4" from Ford F100 http://www.imperialclub.com/Yr/1961/61Disc/index.htm
You will have to use 15" or larger disc brake wheels.
If you use a dual MC you will have to modify your plug wire cover or delete it. I am sending picture of what a customer of ours did.
Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2012-02-20 10:38 AM
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3575
Location: Netherlands | Non-ventilated discs will warp on a heavy car like this.
I would not feel comfortable in knowing there's not much metal in the discs to absorb the brakingheat at a long highway panicstop or busy stop and go driving.
The 67 Chrysler MC has a residual valve in the front port to keep the rear drumbrake-shoes near the drums.
It will now force the rear discpads against the rotors and cause drag (and plenty of heat).
With a correct (modern) MC you will not need a proportioning valve. But since your rear rotors are the same as the fronts now, I think you will need one again.
Discbrake calipers take more fluid-displacement to work so I think the '67 Chrysler MC will also cause a very soft brakepedal in this system. Unless the calipers have relativly small piston-diameters.
WindsorWendy,
The placement/position of a caliper on a spindle does not affect brakehandling or nose-diving.
It's a rotational force which is being transfered to the spindle one way or another. The spindle doesn't know/feel where this force on the discrotor is applied.
For general handling (steering) however, it's best to have the weight of the calipers 'behind' the front axle, to the center of the car. But this is not something of importance on our fullsize vehicles.
Edited by BigBlockMopar 2012-02-20 12:07 PM
|
|
| |
|
Regular
Posts: 69
Location: Northern Ireland | Phil photos not great but hopefully might do ,I put the wheel on tonight and I think there should be room to clear a 14'' ok.I also gave you wrong info on disc machining they don't need any I forgot I did this when I tried to mount the disc to the front of the hub but it fouled the rim.The measurement is not to the highest part as you have shown but I will try to get you an accurate measurement if you want (calipers are of an non hdi 306 diesel).
Calipers are linked using a hard line from the bleed srew into the other caliper.
Bigblock I don't think the discs will warp because the are non vented I have had plenty of vehicles that I have used for towing etc and never warped a disc yet but these are available if needs be but hopefully not as the cars a cruiser.
http://www.europerformance.co.uk/pages/products/category_results.mh...
The master cylinder might indeed need modified its a case of suck it and see.
Guys I am not out to sell anything or claim to be smart I just thought you might be in terested in my attempt to solve my bent drum problem which came with the car the cheapest and simplest way I know how, I am not trying to build the ultimate braking system just a safe and reliable one.
 (100_1965.jpg)
 (100_1964.jpg)
Attachments
----------------
100_1965.jpg (188KB - 260 downloads)
100_1964.jpg (241KB - 247 downloads)
|
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 395
Location: Netherlands | Herman, I partly agree with you...I agree that you're right once the brakes have been applied it makes no difference...
However on the initial point of the brakes grabbing the disc the caliper at the rear side of the disc will want to travel upwards/forwards.
This initial shock effect WILL be admitted to the spindle and on that initial point the suspension has to work hard to correct for this..
Agreed this effect is small and not very present when the brakes are gradually applied like in normal traffic, different though under sudden hard braking conditions...
When you look at motorcycle front ends with discs through the years (on sportsbikes) you'll find that the calipers position changed through the years to deal with these forces.
The last major change being only a few years ago.....Now they're actually trying to use those forces to their advantage.
I know from bike racing experience that a different caliper position makes for very different front end handling on initial braking...
Edited by Windsor Wendy 2012-02-20 5:10 PM
|
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 395
Location: Netherlands | Slow2learn, you're obviously smart enough! No need to sell anything, it's well interesting enough...Think you're doing great and thanks for posting this project!
Edited by Windsor Wendy 2012-02-20 4:57 PM
|
|
| |
|
Regular
Posts: 69
Location: Northern Ireland | OK a breif update brakes appear to be working fine the best I can say about them is I don't think about them if that makes sense.I didn't have to add any valves just modify the mc lid to clear the booster and added a washer betwen the mc and firewall rather than cut the pushrod.Pedal feels good.
Northern Ireland requires an anual test for cars at government test centres the difficulty depending on age it caused a bit of trouble as they don't like brake mods it took a bit of persuassion and a few high speed stops on a wet test centre road to show that the car stopped straight without the rear locking up first and a thorough inspection of the welds etc.
Biggest problem was getting someone to sign it off nobody thought it was bad they just didn't want to be the one to put their name to it.
ok couldn't get the page to post so I'll give you the result from the test centre brake rollers
Brake effort imbalance brake fluctuation required limits
Nearside offside nearside offside
axle 1(sb) 4.48kN 4.25kN 12% 52% 48% 30% or less
axle 2(sb) 4.16kN 3.60Kn 13% 17% 14% 30% or less
axle 2(pb) 3.09kN 3.29Kn
brake performance(efficency)
sevice brake 73% 50% or greater
park brake 28% 16% or greater
blasted thing squashs the figures together
Edited by slow2learn 2012-07-29 5:12 PM
|
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 6513
Location: Newark, Texas (Fort Worth) | That can't be a copper brake line! Please say it's plated or some european coated tubing. Use steel or stainless only. Marc. |
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 8445
Location: Perth Australia | I have been warned off useing stainless steel for the brake lines.
Something to do with them not sealing at the juntions well?
I would not use copper lines either (low burst pressure)
|
|
| |
|
Regular
Posts: 69
Location: Northern Ireland | Nope they are not going to burst or rust in Europe cunifer is the norm pliable and easy to work with although it does say copper on the bag . |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3893
Location: Northen Virginia | this is a great thread, I'm confident someone can design something like this with US components, someone with the knowledge and tools.
AJJ kit it is not big enough for car like an Imperial, I would confident say that the same AJJ set up but with 2 calipers per front wheel will do it.
My daily car has 14" rims with front disks and stop in a dime, but when you towing a trailer, the brakes are just not there, is amazing how much they change with 400-600 extra pounds.
Aspen weight: 3,200 lb
Imperial hardtop: 4,920 lb
Obviously AJJ aspen calipers may not work very well.... |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 135
| I just ordered an aaj brake kit and I don't see why it's not big enough the rotors are off a f100 and the calibers r from a 73 impala those r both big cars. I'm putting the kit on a 63 imperial. |
|
| |
|
Elite Veteran
Posts: 690
Location: BELTSVILLE, MARYLAND 20705 | THE AAJ KIT WILL WORK FIN-- I have installed 11 of theses kits on IMPERIALS and everyone loves them |
|
| |
|
Veteran
Posts: 135
| My imperial has 15 inch rims already so it works fine. Also I am going to use a duel master from a 70 imperial so it has more volume. That is a nice paint job really like the color , I was going to change mine from black to a dark black cherry just just sure what color to do interior |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3893
Location: Northen Virginia | probably the 15" works but the 14" won't, how could a pair of front brakes that are not strong enough not to lock up the front wheels could be enough?
An Imperial driving at 65 m/h with 2 Aspen/Volare brakes?..., As I said my daily car has a 14" rim with a good pair of brakes until you are towing something.. |
|
| |
|
Elite Veteran
Posts: 690
Location: BELTSVILLE, MARYLAND 20705 | Denis----The AAj kit uses FORD Pickup Truck rotors. These rotors are large enough to stop the Imperial and have the same bolt pattern 5.5" so you use your stock rims and tire |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3893
Location: Northen Virginia | Ok, Smitty, are you talking about the 12" drums or the 11" drums?, and of course 14" rims in every case. |
|
| |
|
Member
Posts: 21
| AMAZING conversion!!!!!!
I live in Catalonia (North of Spain) and have recently bought a '58 Plymouth, I am a "PSA" mechanic (which is Peugeot/Citroën group) and have many many parts of this cars, and also work in what once had been a Suzuki dealer so all this parts would be extremely easy for me to get, i have to read your post with more attention, i've got few time, but it would be great to do the same conversion you've done, to my old Plymouth.
So thanks for sharing!!!!
Pau |
|
| |
61 Imp disc brake conversion
