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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | I have gotten a real great deal for a "going to be built" 440 for my 59 Vert.
So far, here's what I have.
77 440 from a Dodge truck----this can't be changed for the "Great Deal"
906 Heads, are the 905's that much better?" Is it worth the money for the Aluminum Heads?
Mopar "Purple Shaft Cam" 108 center lobe, either a "509" or a "484" .
Block will be bored, and pistons chosen to achieve about a 9.2 to 1 compression ratio.
I was gonna use the distributor and chrysler electronic ignition from the 400 that is in the car now
(but I'm told that won't work.
I will be running the 2, 600 cfm carbs that I now run on the 400.
The builder claims it should develope about 440 HP (1 hp/ Cu/in)
Here are my goals for the engine.
Plenty of low end torque as I run 272 gears and want to keep them (The car is a freeway cruiser & "Street Prowler")
Want a lil bit of "Lope" at idle---I like a car with an attitude!
Want it to run on 87 Octane, like my 400 does, but could go to 89.
I am planning on having the engine painted red and using chrome valve covers as I have now.
I could paint it silver, paint the valve covers red and try to find D500 valve cover labels.
(I doubt, Neil would go for that thou)?
Anyway, not trying to fool anybody, as you all know, my car was an original Coronet convertible,
converted to a Custom Royal by the seller, except for the eyebrows and the interior, which I
finished (except for the dash pad)
The car will be driven, almost daily , as it is now, and also be in car shows.
Sooooooooo What would you guys do?
Feel free to Critique, Add helpful advice, let me know of any problems you see that I may miss.
The car has a 62, 727 Torqueflite that has been rebuilt and a shift kit added.
Thanks!!!!!
Gary
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Location: cornpatch county, Southwest IOA | Is there any significant differences between the 440 truck block and the car blocks--other than the truck may have additional ribbing in the sides of the block? Since this is a truck block , I would assume it has the internal balance steel crank. I hope it does as that would make things simpilar and you would not need to change to a external balance torque converter. Maybe your 400 is a external balance engine and already has the right converter- flex plate?.............................MO |
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Location: Netherlands | Make sure the motor has a steel crank, and not a cast one. My bet is it's cast as Chrysler went to cast cranks around '74, accept for the motorhome 413's I recall.
The 484-cam will have a nice 'performance-idle', but with 2.72 gears and only 9.2 cr it will probably feel like a dog driving off from a stop. With 284-duration motorvacuum will be low at idle aswell so power brakes (if you have them) won't work that great at lowspeeds. The 509 cam will be too much and would also necessitate a looser stallconvertor and probably also stiffer valvesprings unless you keep the rpms below 6000, which I think you will in a cruiser.
I personally would forget about the purple cams and choose a modern cam with more lift and less duration. With only 9 to 1 compression you don't want a cam that bleeds away even more compression because of it's valve-overlap at low rpm.
I've run a 440 with a Mopar 284-cam in my '67 Newport. With closed chamber '915' heads and 11 to 1 compression ratio because of the zero-deckheight flattop KeithBlack-pistons it made good power but it was at the limit of the stock stallconvertor and also at the verge of pinging sometimes on our 98RON pump gas. Aluminium heads won't be an improvement for you unless you up the compression almost a full point to counter the aluminium's heatdissipation qualities.
Edited by BigBlockMopar 2010-11-06 6:10 AM
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Location: Ripon, WI | I have always liked Lunati Voodoo cams myself... Real nice lope to them... |
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | Thanks for the inputs, especially about the cams. What I want most is Low RPM torque, the present 400 is sorely missing that alto from reading up on that engine, its actual compression ratio is closer to 7.5 to 1 instead of 8 to one, which still isn't great.
The 440 truck engine does have the cast crank, not the forged one, alto the car will never be run in the quarter mile, I will "ocasionally" leave a stop light with some "Authority", I hope.
I really like the way my 64 runs, with just a trace of lope at idle, but has tremendous torque at low rpm, for those of you that watched the video of stepping on the 64, even after a rolling start, it will break the tires loose it you nail it, then break em loose again when it shifts to 2nd---this is with 323 gears. I don't expect to peal rubber with a 276 rear gear ratio, but still want the "Pull at low RPM".
How serious a problem is the cast crank?
It looks like I gotta do some more cam hunting?
Thanks again!!!
Gary |
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | My engine builder guessed (and actually Misguessed at the duration of the cams), so I looked up "Purple cams"
There are a number of them.
What do you guys think about this one---will it best meet the goals for low rpm torque, with maybe a "Trace of Lope"?
The car has an extremely low stall speed torque converter and I prefer not to mess with it, as I do a lotta of "Around town driving" and I think a higher stall speed would detract from the efficiency of the converter at low engine speeds?
Here's the specs on the one I'm looking at now:
Purple Shaft Cam & Lifter Kit
Adv. Duration: .268°/284°
Dr. @ .050'': 228°/241°
Lift: .450''/.458''
Centerline: 115°
Basic RPM: Idle-5800 RPM
Bolt Pattern: 1-Bolt
View this item
Again thanks for all the inputs, with your guys help, maybe we will "Get it right", the 1st time?
Gary |
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Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | Cast crank is ok under 6000 with 400 or so hp, the compression should be right around 9 to 1 for best performance, lower than that with middle range cam you are going to use, will kill the low /mid range torque. Especially with the stock convertor and 2.76 gears. |
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Location: NorCal |
I agree that the cast crank won't be a problem for the intended use but, if the '62 transmission still has the 19-spline input shaft, provisions will have to be made to externally balance the converter or use an externally balanced flexplate.
Purple Shaft cams are old tech, Hughes has modern grinds that will suit your needs.
http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/products.php?browse=category&lev... |
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | Thanks Shep, we will be going with about 9.2 to 1 CR. After talking with my friend Aivar's "Wrencher" and reading a ton of info on different web-sites, I am going with the aluminum heads, I'm told they have a lesser capacity towards detonation, The water jackets are isolated from the exaust--so easier to seal, and a 59 Dodge Vert could benefit from a little less weight (ya thinks)?
My engine builder also says He will have a cam custom ground for the type of performance I'm looking for. A small amount of lope at idle, but tons of torque at the bottom end. My typical drive is along city streets, and I have the 272 rear, and torque converter is the standard one so around 1200 stall speed, so I want to run a low idle speed---which I do now, even with the crazy cam I have in the 400, but the car kinda "Rocks and Rolls" so I wanna tame that down a bit too.
Thanks again for the input!!!!!
Gary |
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Location: Big pimpin' | Beware of Hughes brand cams that "Take advantge" of the Chrysler .900 Lifter with more aggresive lobe ramps....A buddy went through this with them when one ate a Hughes cam within the first 6 months, dude said "Well, your gonna freshen the motor by that time anyway right?"....
You have been warned...Yeah, sure, they will make more power than say a "Purple Shaft", or Comp cam, but how long do you want to have between "Freshens"?
Also have personally had a Lunati "VooDoo" cam shipped to me advertised at .513 lift...When I checked it, it came in at .630 lift...Beware...
Edited by dukeboy 2010-11-06 4:42 PM
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | Thanks for your inputs on the tranny. Yes as far as I know it has the standard 19 spline input shaft. So we will have to address that too.
Some of you folks have met my engine builder (actually He's my "Total car Guy") as He does it all. He takes care of both of my "Machines".
He is Jon from JMC Performance.
I suggested he read this thread along with dukeboys, so hopefully we don't get any surprises.
One good thing is I can continue to drive and enjoy my vert, until the engine is finished and ready to install,
so I won't be without the car for long---which at my age , is important 
Again, Thanks, with your guys help, I think we're getting there!!
Gary |
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | Thanks Duke, about the cam, been there, done that with the 64. Had a "Competiton Cam (the name of the company that built it)
That succer went flat in less than 2000 miles, and it was not an "Extreme cam" either, just a lil lope at idle----sorry I don't have
the specs on it, but my engine builder (since gone) did make good on a replacement of a special grind cam, and that one has been
great for several years. Doesn't make your day when a cam goes flat, bent the pushrods, and tons of metal that havta be cleaned
out of the engine---plus several oil changes all within couple hundred miles---just to be sure all that metal floating around was gone!
Gary |
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Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | No ZDDP, maybe! |
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Location: O.C. CALIFORNIA | Hey guys. I like all the comments here. As far as cam spec's and other details,we probably wont be posting them here. However, after we're done, I'm sure Gary will share them with you. That is...IF YOU CAN CATCH HIM!!!haha |
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Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | I would just go for the Standard old 440 magnum cam. Its all done by 5500rpm, but will work very well with 9.2:1 compression and a stock style head. They have old school slow lobes that will last 100,000 miles, and are gentle on springs. It has enough lope to let you know its there, and since its a stock cam, a stock converter is no issue. It has a very wide LSA so it has lots of vacumn for power accessories. Its hard to beat for simple reliability with decent performance - this cam makes great low end torque.
Another good cam would be the Comp Xtreme 268 - I believe the grind number is XE268. Its basically a modern interpretation of the old 440 magnum cam and is about 25hp better. It has a little less vacumn but still works fine with stock converter. This should be another good torquey cam.
Comp also makes a high lift series that takes advantage of the mopars large lifter with a much higher rate of lift, but you better have a good valvetrain. Unless you are swapping rocker arms to aftermarket, you are going to be limited to around .500 lift. The stamped ones start giving up around .520 lift. Stock and mildly ported mopar heads typically are all done by .550 lift, so there really is no need for a extremely aggressive cam unless you go for aftermarket heads (or seriously ported 906/915 heads done by someone who knows how to rework the short turn) that flow at high lifts. These fast rate of lift cams really slam the valve down on the seat and are hard of the valvetrain. Hughes, the Lunati Voodoo series are also high rate of lift cams and are hard on the valvetrain.
With a good set of mildly worked 906 heads, a good intake, and headers, i would assume around 440hp with the XE268 cam, and just over 400 with the stock magnum. I would not go larger than this cam due to your low stall converter, heavy car, and tall gears. |
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | Thanks for the cam info Rick. We will be going with aluminum "Closed heads" possibly Edelbrock or a very similar head.
Since we are going with aluminum heads, Im told we can probably go slightly higher with the compression ratio, maybe about
9.5 to 1, instead of the 9.2 to 1, and shouldn't have any detonation problems. I am hoping to run 87 octane, but I would go
to 89 if absolutely necessary. The 413 in my 64 does very nicely on 89 octane with 34 degrees ignition advance and not the slightest
hint of pinging, and it has iron heads (I think) I better go get a magnet???
Anyway, knowing what you do know about the head and compression we are gonna use, would that affect your cam choices any?
As mentioned, bottom end torque is the main objective, and maybe "Just a little lope at idle" to "Keep those Chebbies Honest" 
Thanks for your inputs, hopefully this engine will be "Designed by the Forward Look"!!!!!
Gary |
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Location: NorCal | dukeboy - 2010-11-06 1:37 PM
Beware of Hughes brand cams that "Take advantge" of the Chrysler .900 Lifter with more aggresive lobe ramps....A buddy went through this with them when one ate a Hughes cam within the first 6 months,
You'll hear similar anecdotal tales about every brand cam under the sun. Too many variables to blame the cam grinder, I've got two Hughes cams in service. |
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Location: O.C. CALIFORNIA | 99% of all flat cams,are not to blame for going flat. usually valve train or oiling system problems are to blame...However, sometimes you just get a bad one. They all come from the same to two places anyways, no matter who's name is on it.
That being said...I got a bad Comp. cam once. 
Edited by JMCPERFORMANCE 2010-11-09 12:21 AM
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Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | If you are going with aluminum heads, go up to about 10.5:1 compression. Modern chambers and the aluminum make them much less detonation prone. The best aftermarket street heads for HP are probably the smaller Indy's like the SR's, or 440-1's. The Brodix B1-BS are real nice also.
Edelbrocks really are not that great - a good set of ported stock heads flow quite a bit better than an out of the box Edelbrock. If you are going to get the eddies ported, you might as well spend the extra money up front to get a better head that flows where you want it, then you have the ability to port them in the future if you need more flow. Mopar Performance Stage heads like the Stage VI were designed from the get-go to be ported, so they have dissapointing flow out of the box, but someone who knows what they are doing can really get them to flow.
The 440Source heads are the only ones that look stock but I have heard that they have an odd chamber shape that allows the head gaskets fire ring to hang into the chamber, but I have not actually had a set in my hands to inspect. If this is true, head gaskets will be a problem.
I have never had a cam go flat, but I am anal about startup with a flat tappet cam. A friend of mine has had cams from every grinder go flat, even the same grinds. Keeping a flat tappet alive during breakin is more about taking care and prep work than anything else. Agressive cams really require everything to be perfect durng break in because of valvetrain velocities and spring pressures. I usually remove the inner springs on a dual valve spring a real nasty flat tappet cam break in, as well as using 1.5 rockers. Put the higher ratio rockers on after breakin.
If you are going with aftermarket aluminum heads, I would step up the cam also. They flow well at higher lifts and can take advange of the Comp HL lobes, as well as something like the Hughes cams much better than a stock head.
Edited by RacerRick 2010-11-09 12:02 PM
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Location: Colo Spgs | Hello There
I am kinda with Rick on getting a "ole school" MoPar Cam shaft. The OEM unit
sold by NAPA is # CS-327. It has the "tomato sauce" at where you drive at.
If you have a 400 now all of this can be used with the 400. Or you can use the
80 pound heavier 440 with the same items.
Why not keep the Heads and just match port the In-take to the Heads and the
Heads to the Exhaust Manifolds .
Rodger & Gabby
COS |
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Location: Netherlands | Where would these 80 pounds be hiding in a 440-block?
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | Thanks for the inputs, Rick & Rodger. I intend to run the eddys straight out of the box. My goal is about 1hp,cu/in.
with an .030 overboar of the 440 that should give us about 446 inches?, so anything around 450HP and torque in the 500 ft/lbs will be plenty for this ol guy. My 64 ,413 dynoed at 350 hp and 435 ft/lbs of torque and even with the 323 sure grip, it will smoke the tires and smoke em again when the TF shifts to 2nd. (kinda makes me wonder about the 350 hp number)?
I intend to leave the 272, road runner limited slip rear end in the 59, as I want it more as a "Highway Cruiser",
It does that well now, and I like the gearing in it better than the 64 on freeway trips. The only thing is, the 400 is
a "real dog" rite now, till I get a few rpm's up, then she will take off. So what I am trying to do is design a
"Nicely balanced machine", It will still leave a stop light with some authority, as the 64 does, yet remain a comfortable quiet cruiser on the freeway.
I went over to see Jon, the engine builder this AM.
Here is where we are so far:
77 440 block, it will be bored .030
we will use its cast crank it will be heat treated and the usual checks made.
We will use the rods from the 440 block, they will be shotpeened and hardened.
We will use the Edelbrock completely assembled heads (right out of the box)(60929)
we will go with the KB pistons (those lite weight ones) and end up with a CR of about 9.8 to 1.
We are looking at the lunatic (vodoo) cams, we were shooting for 112 center but unless I'm
willing to use a comp cam (recall I have seen the "remains" of one that went flat in my 64 Dodge)sooooo
may have to go to a 110 center if I decide to go with the Voodoo, we are going for a lift of
about 500, (I will have more cam details later as Jon is gonna email me some of the options.)
Thanks for your inputs on the Pistons, Duke. I had run TRW's forged (Non thermally slotted) pistons
in the original 426 engine in the 64 Dodge. It sounded like a diesel, even when warmed up, now it
could be the idiot undersized them???? never did have any problems with them thou, even thou that
engine was prone to detonation on 91 gas. As you know, I want really KWIK throttle response, so
that is why I'm going with the lighter pistons and I never will run the car down the dragstrip or run No2
etc etc, so I think (Hope) we made a good choice here.
Anyway , thanks again everybody, and we will have more details as they come in!
Gary
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Location: NorCal | Rodger - 2010-11-09 9:24 AM
Or you can use the 80 pound heavier 440 with the same items.
More like 15 pounds heavier. |
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Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | If you are only looking at 1hp/ci, then save your money on the edelbrock heads. Also, don't bother with the hypereutectic pistons - they are junk. This is one place you don't want to save money. Get a good forged piston - Wiseco, Probe, and Ross all make good ones that are reasonably priced.
Take the stock heads (for a 77' 440 they should be 452's) and template port them, add new valves and good single valve springs like the MP 249's. Valve sizes can remain stock. Run six pack forged pistons or similar to get compression around 10:1, and then run the MP484 hydralic cam or similar. This is an easy 1hp/ci combo. Just make sure you add the hemi oil pickup, high volume pump, and hardended oil pump driveshaft. Step up to the MP 509 cam and its the default 500hp combo.
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Location: Netherlands | Thanks for the laughs RacerRick, you really seem to know your schtuff...
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Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | Remember the Hemi oil p/u is 1/2 pipe size and the block must be drilled and tapped. |
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | Yep, Rick knows his stuff.
I'm going with the AL heads because they have a far less tendency to create detonation, (recall one of my goals is to run 87 octane), and still run enough advance so we don't kill the power or the mileage.
We are detuning the cam, a bit as we dont wanna be much over 450HP and 500 ft/lbs of torque.
We dont wanna start snapping drive shafts or blow the rear end out of that 272.
If I were a serious racer, I would have Rick build my engine for sure, Well maybe both him and
Duke (I hope they get along( LOL)
Here is a "Mopar Site" that shows where an engine was built, pretty much the way we are building this one, but we well step down a bit on the cam.
Let me know what ya thinks
http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/index.php?topic=37136.0
Gary
Edited by 1959Dodge 2010-11-10 3:33 PM
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Location: O.C. CALIFORNIA | 500 horse is o.k. I'm just finnishing my 440 non-strocked,pump gas, daily driver, for my 57... It dynoed at 800 horse...is that enough power for ya?
No Blower,no nitrus.
Edited by JMCPERFORMANCE 2010-11-10 5:20 PM
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Location: NorCal | RacerRick - 2010-11-10 7:59 AM
Also, don't bother with the hypereutectic pistons - they are junk.
The same thought process that brought us "don't run Hughes cams, they go flat". |
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Location: O.C. CALIFORNIA | Opinions...Everybodys got one...and they all (______)!
Edited by JMCPERFORMANCE 2010-11-10 5:22 PM
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Location: Big pimpin' | JMCPERFORMANCE - 2010-11-10 4:34 PM
500 horse is o.k. I'm just finnishing my 440 non-strocked,pump gas, daily driver, for my 57... It dynoed at 800 horse...is that enough power for ya?
No Blower,no nitrus.
Hmmmmm would have to see that one...Been trying to do that for years and nobody's found a way to keep from running race gas and eating valvetrain parts like candy yet to make that kinda power...
Edited by dukeboy 2010-11-10 6:28 PM
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| dukeboy - 2010-11-10 6:23 PM
JMCPERFORMANCE - 2010-11-10 4:34 PM
500 horse is o.k. I'm just finnishing my 440 non-strocked,pump gas, daily driver, for my 57... It dynoed at 800 horse...is that enough power for ya?
No Blower,no nitrus.
Hmmmmm would have to see that one...Been trying to do that for years and nobody's found a way around that race gas yet to make that kinda power...
Cant run pump gas and make 800HP..... period. |
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Location: Big pimpin' | 59CRL - 2010-11-10 6:25 PM
dukeboy - 2010-11-10 6:23 PM
JMCPERFORMANCE - 2010-11-10 4:34 PM
500 horse is o.k. I'm just finnishing my 440 non-strocked,pump gas, daily driver, for my 57... It dynoed at 800 horse...is that enough power for ya?
No Blower,no nitrus.
Hmmmmm would have to see that one...Been trying to do that for years and nobody's found a way around that race gas yet to make that kinda power...
Cant run pump gas and make 800HP..... period.
Oh those "Pump gas" Engine Challenge Engines made right around 750 HP and ran on pump gas, but they had ALOT of exotic parts that wouldn't be "Daily Driven" material at best...
Wait a minute Greg, you forget so soon??? There was that one 413 that was good for over 1000 Ft. Lbs of torque..Remember???  |
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Location: Big pimpin' | Gary, sure, you COULD rebuild your stock heads, but here's the thing....Spend $1000 In machine work and valves, springs, retainers and locks, OR spend $1400.00 and get all new heads that will take about a point higher in compression ratio with less chance of detonation |
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Location: O.C. CALIFORNIA | I will gladly post the dyno sheet for all you skeptics. This is the third and most powerful we've done over 750. And actually I was wrong on the horse. It was 796, not 800, sorry. Doing a little re-adjusting to the valvetrain and some carb changes then we will run it again. Maybe we can video it this time and post that. Give me a month or so, we have a couple customer engines to finish first. Oh... and this is not magic, and I am not the only one with some of these engines.
Also, I drive my 67 to work most every day, and it dynoed 700 w/ 750 torque. on 91 octane.
Edited by JMCPERFORMANCE 2010-11-10 6:57 PM
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Location: O.C. CALIFORNIA | oh yea. I like people that say can't. They make me laugh. |
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| JMCPERFORMANCE - 2010-11-10 6:58 PM
oh yea. I like people that say can't. They make me laugh.
Proof.......????? |
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Location: Big pimpin' | A cost breakdown, as well as parts breakdown would be nice as well...I mean anybody with enough money thrown at an engine will make power, but That's not what this thread is about..It's about cheap power and relliablity for the street... |
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | We think the same way about heads, Duke, that is why we went with the aluminum heads. We will have a much better chance of running 87 on that , than if we used iron heads. I wished I had known you guys and Jon when I built the 413 for the 64. I just bought the motor , had it shipped to the engine shop (Not Jon)
(didn't know him back then), had them install it in the car and paid and drove off
I did get lucky, (with the exception of the bad cam) it has proven pretty reliable , runs well
on 89@34 degees advance, and at least to me, has plenty of power.
So I got lucky.
This time, for the 59, We will all know what's in that motor and even with the 276 gears, it might make my 64 with the 323 gears nervous, Ya thinks??
Thanks again PPL
I cant want till the engine is together and we Dyno it, or better yet in the car and the "Pedal to the Metal"
(Ya know what I mean)? Should be the fastest 59 Dodge around, 
Gary |
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Location: Big pimpin' | Gary, all you can do is take all the opinions here and stir well and hope like hell your guy knows what the hell he's doing cause here for every one opinion trying to steer you down the correct path, there's one trying to contradict everything that has been said thus far. This is why asking about HP on an open forum or anything for that matter is a crap shoot at best because of the differences in opinions....Bout the only way you will know what works FOR SURE, is good 'ol trial and error....Kinda like asking a cop about the law and asking a different cop the same question you get two totally different replies...Know wadda mean? Good luck, and i can only hope I have steered you down the correct path and that 'ol 440 makes you "Nervous" when you hit the loud pedal...
Edited by dukeboy 2010-11-10 8:09 PM
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Location: Arvada, Colorado (NW Denver Metro Area) | Gary, Just have it done by Spring Fling so I can see it in person! Sounds like it should be a rocket! |
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | yep John, it will be, In fact I suspect Jon will have it done before Christmas.
That's the one good thing about building a different engine for the car, I can
continue to drive and enjoy the car till She's ready for the "Transplant"
I sure hopes she "Pulls thru"
Look forward to seeing you there John, (Bring your Vert) and tell Mike to bring
that Desoto Convertible!!!! I hope some of our other folks here
can make the Spring Fling, None of us are getting any younger (right)?
Aivar will most likely bring a "Surprise" too
I did tell Jon not to make my 59 too fast,
Aivar is a good friend and I don't want my 59
"beatin up" on his "New Baby"
For our Freezin friends in Sweden, Norway, and other parts of Europe,
We will video the 440 when She "Springs to life" and then take you guys
with us for a test drive, (Courtesy UTube)
Gary
Edited by 1959Dodge 2010-11-10 10:21 PM
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Member
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Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | Remember - detonation is when cylinder pressure and heat cause the fuel to self ignite.
Higher compression + short duration cam - lots of cylinder pressure. Don't forget load on the motor from the heavy car with a super tall gear. A larger cam is more low octane friendly than a smaller one due to overlap which decreases cranking pressure.
Aluminum heads draw a lot of heat out due to their high thermal conductivity, which allows a little more cylinder pressure before the fuel auto ignites. I am currently running an 11.2:1 compression 450ci low deck mopar with mildly ported 452 heads, the old mopar 509 cam (its all the lift the pistons would allow without machining them) that runs fine on 91 octane at 34 degrees of timing. If I backed the timing off to around 30 or 32, I would probably be fine on 87 octane and still make right around 500hp.
If you really want to work on higher compression with a short cam on 87 octane, try ceramic coating the exhaust port, piston head and chambers. It reflects heat, making the surface cooler and less prone to start detonation. Run the engine between 165-180 degrees, and really isolate the fuel system from heat. A cold air intake helps also. Then its really working the timing curve and total timing. Mopars usually tend to detonation worst in the midrange - so a slow curve with alots of initial to make the car jump at low rpm is the trick. Start at around 32 degrees total with the vacumn advance disconnected. Headers and an efficent exhaust also really make a difference in octane tolerance.
And hypereutectic pistons are the biggest sham in the performance market - a cheaper material than straight cast pistons, that come out of the mold much closer to final dimentions so less machine work is needed, with next to zero ductility. Give them a fancy heat treat and tell everyone they are the greatest thing going. Their high silicon material holds more heat causing the rings to expand more - requiring better or thicker rings. There is a reason most aftermarket hyper pistons come with old school 5/64" rings - the greater surface area of the ring is needed to cool them! Their failure mode is to shatter like glass! I have seen more motors ruined by those crap pistons, where a cheap forged would have been fine, and a old style cast probably would have just pinched a ring or got a ding in it. There is a reason the OEM's like to put them in everything - they are cheap! In my opinion, they have to place in a performance motor.
But what do I know, I am just a guy on the internet. |
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Expert
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | Thanks for the input Rick. I have been doing a tremendous amount of studying on these.
Advantages I see that they are light, and some claim the engine therefore rev's faster.
I have seen where some have failed, usually it is claimed it was due to the ring gap on
the top ring, not being gapped correctly. As that ring is higher on the KB pistons
(supposedly to scavenge oil more efectively (you know the smog thing), the ring will
run hotter and hence needs more gap.
Many builders like this piston (ya know from that thread I posted the URL from).
Really is a tuff call
The pistons in my 64 are nice and quiet, no idea what they are but I doubt they Hypers.
I kinda had a bad taste for the forged, since the original 426 engine, I had put
TRW, non thermally slotted pistons in it and "John Deer" would have loved the noise
they made, even when hot, but course that could have been the builders fault -- too
much clearance or whatever? Like I said, whatever pistons are in the 64 now are
great.
I'm not buying the pistons to save money (or I would not have sprung for the AL Heads).
I thought they might have a performance advantage due to their lighter weight??
Again, thanks for the post. I go back and read some more, like I said, "Tuff Call"
Congradulations on the great build on your engine!!!!
Gary |
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Elite Veteran
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Location: STL, MO | This is a good thread. Welcome to Rick and Jon. Pencil me in as someone who would like to see the 796hp 440 build, if you'll be good enough to share with us, Jon. |
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Member
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Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | TRW forged pistons are generally stock replacement pistons which make them extremely heavy compared to a modern forged piston. Most of the pistons for the less common engines are also 30+ year old designs. A modern forged piston can be made lighter because of the higher strength of the material. But honestly, the factory pistons are so heavy (about 860 grams with a 220 gram pin) that most any modern forged piston is several hundred grams lighter, and the pins weigh haf as much.
Ring gaps butting on a piston from being improperly gapped should not make a piston shatter into metallic gravel - which is what hypers do. If there is inadequet ring gap, the rings should butt and score the cylinder walls before the pistons shatter, since the rings do not suddenly grow, but expand more slowly, and there should be cylinder wall damage before the pistons failed. I have only seen one motor that had the cylinder wall marked up from the rings butting, and it actually pulled the top of the cast piston off (40 over rings on 30 over pistons). The motor was bored, new pistons installed and its probably still running.
I have a box of KB hypers from a 351w ford that are covered with a spiderweb of cracks - the owner detonated the engine bad when he got bad fuel - and the 7 pistons I have are all cracked. One is in about three pieces - thats how it came out of the motor as the only thing holding it together was the rings. The 8th one was in the oil pan. With no piston, the connecting rod knocked a hole in the block, manged to fold itself in half and completely destroy the shortblock. Luckily the heads survived. |
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Location: O.C. CALIFORNIA | I feel that this post is getting a little mean spirited and competitive. For that, I apologize. I should be talking about how excited Gary is to be involved in this build. Congrats Gary! I can't wait to see the smile on your face when you drive it down the road. |
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Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada | I don't think its getting mean spirited. I would like to hear your combo - I think with the right heads, a stock stroke motor could go 800hp on pump gas. About 10-15 years ago, either Muscle Motors or Mcandless used to sell a 500ci bracket motor that did 800hp with just
I am thinking of building a junker 450 from the cast off parts I have laying around and seeing if it will go 450hp using as many factory mopar parts as possible. I think I might need to step up the cam a bit...
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Expert 5K+
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Location: Big pimpin' | Anythying CAN be done with enough money....Again, this thread isn't about spending huge money on a stock stroke. 800 HP, 9500 RPM, .950 Lft, 300 @ .050 Cammed, $25K 440...Post the numbers AND the parts specs on the motor, as That's ALOT of power on a daily driven engine on pump gas with IRON heads as the Eddy's seem to be junk these days....I'm the biggest proprieter of the 440 there is, but even I know better than to spit out something like an 800 HP 440 with NO power adder.... |
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Elite Veteran
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Location: STL, MO | I remember Bob Lambeck or Jim Hale having 500 ci 500hp motors w/iron heads but 800 hp inline valve B motors? Stock dim.?Without N20? Maybe Wayne County? 
Edited by Handygun 2010-11-11 3:11 PM
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Building a 440 for my 59 Dodge
