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It is not a radio delete car? Jump to page : 1 2 Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
Forward Look NON-Technical Discussions -> Miss Belvedere - The Unearthed Tulsarama Plymouth! | Message format |
aepowell |
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Member Posts: 6 Location: Sherman,Texas | Everyone has been saying it came without a radio, but this picture shows a pushbutton radio with the two control knobs. click on picture for a better view aepowell Edited by aepowell 2007-06-23 1:30 AM | ||
1955Coronado |
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Expert Posts: 1918 Location: Hell's Outhouse - a.k.a. Buckeye, Arizona | Maybe they removed the antenna/mirror(s) to get a form fit on the styrolene? Shoot, maybe the holes were there & I didn't look close enough..... Edited by 1959Fury 2007-06-23 1:52 AM | ||
MOPAR-TO-YA |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 5139 Location: cornpatch county, Southwest IOA | My thought has been that possibly the antennas were dealer installed back then and Miss Belvie had not got it yet.......................................5%............... | ||
d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | Nah, Steve, when you ordered/bought a car with a radio, the antenna was provided at no additional cost! Many radios were retrofitted by dealerships, onto cars that were delivered without them. As the car was placed inside a (virtually worthless, as it turned out) vinyl-type bag, it makes sense that the antenna would have been LOWERED, into the fender cavity; but, to have been removed, from the car does not make sense; especially since the car was expected to be un-earthed in perfect condition. The antenna could, then, have been pulled-back-up, into position, and re-secured to the fender, using the base/hardware that could have been stored in the glovebox. SO, does anyone have any pics which would clearly show the large antenna mounting-hole, on the passenger's side fender? | ||
58 DESOTOS RULE |
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Expert Posts: 2308 Location: The Bat Cave, Fairborn, OH | Apparently the car did have a radio, but there's no sign of an antenna; not even a mounting hole for one on the right fender which is the normal location for one. A mystery!
Edited by 58 DESOTOS RULE 2007-06-23 4:14 PM (1957 Plymouth R-F Antenna.jpg) Attachments ---------------- 1957 Plymouth R-F Antenna.jpg (42KB - 138 downloads) | ||
forwardlookparts |
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Expert Posts: 2721 Location: Minneapolis | I saw the radio but it didnt even occur to me that the antenna was missing. Funny so many people said it was a delete car when it is fairly obvious on the dash. | ||
d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | WELL, the fact that it has a radio, but NOT an antenna implies that the radio was ADDED-on, at the dealership, and/or by Tulsarama Committee, after the car was built. Unfortunately, the motto for all Mopes is :"Never say Never", about anything, but, if it ain't got no antennae, it (probably) was built without the radio- option. The car's Broadcast Sheet (right; go find THAT, in the car!) and its factory IBM Card photocopy will confirm precisely what OEM equipment the car had, when it left the factory. I wonder if Tulsarama has a record of its VIN ??? | ||
Rebels-59 |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+ Location: .Norfolk..Mafia.. ,England UK | Here is another shot from the Original Burial... No Antenna (Miss Belvy.jpg) Attachments ---------------- Miss Belvy.jpg (171KB - 217 downloads) | ||
d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | HI, CLIVE!!! You home now????? back-on-thread: my position shall have to remain that, failing the existence of an antenna, the car was not oEM built with a radio. a LOT tougher question to debate, is on a car that is "coded" NOT to have had an OEM radio, but which "now" has (had) a radio be installed in it. There were a lot of Dodges built without the radio option. | ||
forwardlookparts |
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Expert Posts: 2721 Location: Minneapolis | I guess we'll never know. Maybe it was ordered with an antenna delete! LOL! | ||
d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | Doug, it IS a knowable answer! The IBM card-copy, and, maybe, the car's purchase doc's (if Tulsarama can find them lololol) will tell the story about the OEM build of the car. What IS interesting, is who, and when it was, decided to install the radio, in the dash. I think that someone may have had a brain-storm, late-on, to install the radio, as a gift to the future, or, maybe, the dealer was in the process of retro-fitting a radio to the car (an otherwize manual brakes/steering/2-barrel motor "stripper"car????) when it was selected to be Mess Belvidere, so, the dealer didn't bother to install an antenna?.....NAH. I like the "Gift to the Future" theory. | ||
ronbo97 |
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Expert Posts: 4044 Location: Connecticut | The car was ordered with a radio. It would make sense to include an antenna, BUT that antenna would not be installed. Why ? Too much of a risk that it would snap off during delivery. Antenna came in a package with mounting instructions and template. Dealership would install when the car arrived from the factory. | ||
d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | Exactamundo, Ron, except that the fender would be drilled (or, pre-drilled) at the factory, for the radio installation. No way did the individual dealerships drill through fresh paint, on the fenders, on all the cars which were to receive antennae. On my literature, here, I don't recall reading anything about how it was expected that a dealership was to install the entire radio antenna system. IN FACT, on my Dodge, & I'm sure, on/for PLY's, there is a SMALL, screwed-closed access hole, where the antenna was 'fished' into the inner fender, at the factory. The Power antenna cars have a different, long-oval access hole, to accommodate the motor mechanism. I can send you pics of no-radio-option cars (no such thing as "radio-delete") which have a welded-shut access door. It would be good to see what the passenger's side inner fender looks like, and, the IBM card will dispell the issue as to whether this car left the factory with a radio, or not. | ||
d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | And, dammit, there was no sign of an antenna in the car's trunk, IIRC---even the BEER cans didn't completely dissolve, inside the trunk. | ||
MOPAR-TO-YA |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 5139 Location: cornpatch county, Southwest IOA | I got to agree with Ron- he said what I tried to earlier post. The factory installed the radio- it was up to the dealer to install a plain antenna or a power antenna or dual rear antennas. I don't know about plymouth, but I have seen Chrysler antennas mounted on the drivers side too....................................5%.................. | ||
FinFan |
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Elite Veteran Posts: 709 Location: Poznan, Poland, Europe | Hehe, I knew I have seen a radio there, despite the condition of the dash and the claim in other thread , that there was no radio :D Thanks for documenting what I was not 100% sure I see there. I have also read about antennas being mounted low to the side of a fender,in vertical position. in the space between door gap and wheel arch, but don't know if it was used in USA at all. | ||
Thorchr |
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Member Posts: 33 | IMB Card? Can anybody please explain to me what this card is? Is this a card that is avaible to see what my 1957 Belvedere that was built in Evansville was equipped with? Thor | ||
1955Coronado |
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Expert Posts: 1918 Location: Hell's Outhouse - a.k.a. Buckeye, Arizona | An IBM card is like a punch card that tells, by code, what features are on the car it's attached to, Thor. "UnrestoredBelvedere" has the original IBM cards for his nearly finished 1959 Fury 4 door sedan posted in his thread within the "Members Rides" folder thusly: Edited by 1959Fury 2007-06-24 5:02 AM (IBM1.jpg) (IBM2.jpg) Attachments ---------------- IBM1.jpg (46KB - 150 downloads) IBM2.jpg (46KB - 146 downloads) | ||
lawrence |
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Expert Posts: 3951 Location: Bama | Some strange stuff about that car. Dual exhaust and no mirrors. When I think about the radio deal, I'd bet it was a delete car and people said it needs a radio in it. Just to let 2007 Tulsans know that '57 Tulsans had radios | ||
Thorchr |
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Member Posts: 33 | Thanks for the information about the card. I guess this card that have been in my car, have been gone for many years now. Is there any copies saved by Chrysler or the Plymouth assembly plants? Thor | ||
58 DESOTOS RULE |
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Expert Posts: 2308 Location: The Bat Cave, Fairborn, OH | I believe there is a chance you might be able to get a copy of the IBM punch card from Chrysler but you will have to have the VIN number and you will have to prove to Chrysler that you own it - and there will be a charge - about $40 USD I've heard. I haven't done it myself but some of the others who post regularly have done so and they can probably tell you who you have to write to. I think the service is offered through the WPC Museum. If you do a Google search you can probably bring up the web site. | ||
My57Saratoga |
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Elite Veteran Posts: 612 Location: Kingston Springs , TN | I've sent for the build record on my car. It costs 45 bucks and you do have to prove you're the owner, by sending them a copy of your title. In return they'll send you a copy of your IBM card and a fact sheet on your vehicle, listing whatever info they still possess, such as build and delivery dates, delivery dealer, colors etc. Here's the site where you can get the info: http://www.chryslerheritage.com/pg904.htm Mike Edited by My57Saratoga 2007-06-24 10:30 AM | ||
d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | YEARS ago, I acquired quite a few IBM cards, on various D500's & D501's , back when you COULD get one, by merely referencing a VIN, and paying $15.00 each. I've also swapped IBM copies, and in-house factory literature with a couple D-500-1 fanatics. The quality of the photocopy, itself, is usually quite poor, and, you almost have to know what you're looking for, to understand all of the fine-print, on them; but, the major-option-items (like a radio) are relatively easy to find. I agree with Larry, that the radio-addition may have been an after-thought, by the dealer, or by Tulsarama. One of the newspaper accounts, I've just read states that the reason a large can of gasoline was included, in the car, was due to the possibility that there might not have been gasoline-powered cars, IN 2007!!! ALSO: doesn't the fender's antenna-base-opening have a small notched "keyway" , on it, so that the antenna-base "slots" into the keyway, and the antenna is thus prevented from rotating around, on the fender? | ||
57plymouth |
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Expert Posts: 3577 Location: Blythewood, SC | I think you are right about the keyway on the antenna. My car didn't have a radio, and my Dad put one in around 1982 or so. He just used a parts store antenna, but the correct looking hole I have seen in J/Y cars had a slot on one side to "clock" the antenna. | ||
d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | Yeah, Brian, so, it would be a TAD-tough, to expect every dealership, to drill into a freshly painted fender, and, to create that mounting hole-notch, for an antenna installation. SEE? THIS is the sort of assembly-detail that I had been hoping to confirm, on the car! I really had wanted to see how the OEM trunk-finish, and undercarriage, appeared! | ||
d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | One of the nicest things, that I've seen, in a letter accompanying the IBM Build Card copy, is the Historical Society informing you of the identity of your car's selling-dealership. That info is encoded on the Paint/Trim plate, but the actual long-list of dealership-codings had been thought to have been lost at the H.S., but, a few years ago, it was apparently located. The factory can NOT decypher the Paint/Trim plates, directly; they only provide you with the IBM card copy, and leave it up to you to do your own data-research, on it. Still, if you have any special-model car, the IBM card copy will confirm its provenance. | ||
d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | Altho it was my initial impression, that it was a no-radio car, and pointed out the lack of an antenna, no less an authority than Jim Benjaminson ("Benji") PM'ed me, to confirm that the car did not have a radio in it, and what anyone is looking at, on the dash, is a block-off plate. Jim did say that it was his experience that a dealership WAS to have hole-sawed-and-notched-out a fender (or, the rear deck, for dual antennae) and to have installed the antenna system. This car, for whatever reason (probably due to the economics of providing a car, to Tulsa that would be stuck into the ground for 50 years) had very few options. One-such, which Jim could not confirm, was whether it was built with a TorqueFlite, or PowerFlite trannie. Anyone know, for certain, about its transmission status? Altho I see no clear-evidence of the existence of the large Carter 4barrel carb, sticking out, from under the air cleaner, Jim is not convinced that it didn't have the big-carb, and not a 2-barrel guy. Also, Jim states that dual exhaust pipes WERE an option, on either the 2, or on the 4, barrel carb set-ups, so, the fact that this car DOES have dual-pipes does not confirm its carburetor status. Is that correct, JIM? | ||
Benji |
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Veteran Posts: 101 Location: Walhalla, ND | O.K. guys - history lesson time. Back in the late 50's items such as radios, heaters, etc., were all optional. They were installed AT THE DEALERSHIP and not the factory. My Dad was service manager for a local dealership and installed many radios, etc. As late as 1966 I worked a summer for the local Plymouth dealer - by that time the cars came with the radio in-dash but you had to drill the hole for the antennae(s). You got a paper template with the package that showed you where to locate the hole, then you got out your trusty Black & Decker and made holes in someone's brand new car so he could listen to the radio while taking Momma to church on Sunday! Outside mirrors were the same story - drill the holes and mount them. I haven't had time to study my photos of the dash taken in Tulsa so its quite possible the car had the radio installed but the antennae had never been installed.....it might be laying in all that gunk in the trunk for all we know! | ||
forwardlookparts |
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Expert Posts: 2721 Location: Minneapolis | I would think it has the TorqueFlite. | ||
Benji |
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Veteran Posts: 101 Location: Walhalla, ND | I've studied my photos of the interior and I simply can't tell if the car has a radio or not. If anyone has any photos clearly showing the radio, please post them! I did find the following item in "Tulsa People" magazine - "Sticker Shocking - When it rolled off the assembly line, the 1957 Plymouth Belvedere boasted a 301 cubic inch V8 engine with 215 horsepower, push-button TorqueFlite automatic transmission and a single four-barrel carburetor. Factory options inlcuded a push-button radio, dual exhaust, twin rear antennas, dual outside rearview mirrors, tinted glass, whitewall tires, full-wheel discs, a clock, a deluxe steering wheel, push-button power windows, a rear seat speaker and chrome bumper wing guards. Sticker price, $2,324". I am assuming someone did a little research to put that list together - the car obviously doesn't have dual rear antennas, dual outside rearview mirrors and bumper wing guards. | ||
1955Coronado |
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Expert Posts: 1918 Location: Hell's Outhouse - a.k.a. Buckeye, Arizona | Nix on the windows as well. The manual cranks are clearly visible in the interior pics I've seen. Speaking of the windows, who's bright idea was it to leave them cracked down a bit at the burial? | ||
MOPAR-TO-YA |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 5139 Location: cornpatch county, Southwest IOA | Benji - 2007-07-02 7:55 PM Now who was it that brought this up earlier??? OH yes---it was ME!!! .......................5%.............O.K. guys - history lesson time. Back in the late 50's items such as radios, heaters, etc., were all optional. They were installed AT THE DEALERSHIP and not the factory. My Dad was service manager for a local dealership and installed many radios, etc. As late as 1966 I worked a summer for the local Plymouth dealer - by that time the cars came with the radio in-dash but you had to drill the hole for the antennae(s). You got a paper template with the package that showed you where to locate the hole, then you got out your trusty Black & Decker and made holes in someone's brand new car so he could listen to the radio while taking Momma to church on Sunday! Outside mirrors were the same story - drill the holes and mount them. I haven't had time to study my photos of the dash taken in Tulsa so its quite possible the car had the radio installed but the antennae had never been installed.....it might be laying in all that gunk in the trunk for all we know! | ||
d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | I still don't see the remains of a 4-barrel carb, on what's left of the engine, either. | ||
FinFan |
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Elite Veteran Posts: 709 Location: Poznan, Poland, Europe | Yes, I know, I probably don't have the right to say anything probably, as I never seen Miss Belvedere in person, or any '57 Plymouth at all. All I do, is flicking the pictures until the arrows in image browser end, and go back. But that line about the Tulsa's Belvedere having a push-button radio made me think. The left piece of image comes from a Belvedere sedan that was sold on e-bay and I have saved the pictures (my main source). The right is an interior shot of Miss Belvedere that I've found posted by someone here on FL Home forum. Anyway - to me, there are clearly all the pushbuttons left, forming a nice, visible line of brown blocks, sticking out of the correct area of the dash, (above something, what can be the completely mudded tuning dial) still waiting to be pulled out, programmed , and used by the happy 2007 Chosen One. Edited by FinFan 2007-07-03 4:10 AM (Miss_belvedere_radio.jpg) Attachments ---------------- Miss_belvedere_radio.jpg (195KB - 137 downloads) | ||
lawrence |
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Expert Posts: 3951 Location: Bama | That is the very rare radio delete plate with pushbuttons. | ||
d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | THANX, James; it certainly looks as though there is a radio-unit, in Ms. Belvie. Jim Benjaminson states that it was the receiving dealership's responsibility to install the antenna system, on cars that were built, with radios. There are clearly, no holes put into the fender, by the dealership, or the factory, and there was no antenna/cable system removed from the car. So, given that a radio-unit was installed in the car, by the time that it was buried, the questions still remain, as to whether the radio-unit is OEM, or whether it was installed (by the dealership, probably) as a "Gift to the Future", to show that cars had radios in the 50's. Please recall that one of the reasons that there was a supply of DX gas, placed into the trunk, was due to the Tulsarama Folks not being convinced that cars would still operate, on gasoline, in 2007. BTW, another factual inaccuracy, on the option-listing, above, is the fact that it did have plain-glass, all around it; no tinted windows. But, again; the factory's IBM Build Card copy WILL divulge-all, regarding the car's OEM equipment. It will ALSO confirm whether the car was special-ordered (stripper) by Tulsa, or was built for general-supply purposes, or whether the dealership actually ordered that the car be built and shipped to the dealership (for general on-stock purposes). | ||
58 DESOTOS RULE |
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Expert Posts: 2308 Location: The Bat Cave, Fairborn, OH | I would say Fin Fan's before and after pix definitively answered the question as to whether Miss Belvedere came with an AM radio. I saw the car in person and I took some pictures that proved to me that it did have a radio. I never had a doubt about that. I guess the dealership never got around to installing the antenna. Maybe they left it on the front seat(!) to be installed by the lucky winner in 2007. Someone ought to send away to Chrysler Historical for Miss Belvedere's IBM card as another poster mentioned. Maybe we'll know the real low-down of what equipment the car had and what we lost because the people who buried the car in 1957 didn't install proper drains in the vault. | ||
d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | At the very-least, one would have to have the VIN of the car; years ago, the H.S, would provide IBM copies to any interested person, regardless of vehicle ownership. Recently (read: Deadler), the H.S. reportedly requires an imagage of the VIN plate, or some such declaration/proof of ownership, AND $45.00, to have them copy the micro-fische record, & to send you a nice cover letter, telling you of the car's receiving dealership, and some other info. The car's eventual owner could probably be easily induced to obtain that record, from the H.S. . | ||
FinFan |
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Elite Veteran Posts: 709 Location: Poznan, Poland, Europe | I'm very glad that I was able to help :D :D :D it's an honour to do something for better knowing this one special Plymouth. As a future historian I'm very content that I managed to steal one secret from the past and reveal it to common profit. | ||
Rebels-59 |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+ Location: .Norfolk..Mafia.. ,England UK | OK , Just back home from Spain, Had to take the Wife and Kids for 7 Days to make up for my and Charlie,s Trip to Tulsa,, So i am Late Joining the Party... Here is a Shot of the Top of the Engine... (100_2286.JPG) Attachments ---------------- 100_2286.JPG (97KB - 139 downloads) | ||
Rebels-59 |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+ Location: .Norfolk..Mafia.. ,England UK | It Looks to have a Torqueflite Fitted, The bottom Button Appears Small as if it is the 2 (100_2292.JPG) Attachments ---------------- 100_2292.JPG (99KB - 139 downloads) | ||
Rebels-59 |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+ Location: .Norfolk..Mafia.. ,England UK | Here is my Radio Picture (100_2281.JPG) Attachments ---------------- 100_2281.JPG (94KB - 144 downloads) | ||
Rebels-59 |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+ Location: .Norfolk..Mafia.. ,England UK | Any one Else get the Picture of the Interior Roof... Must of been a AIR Pocket in there, As parts of it are GREAT Condition.... (100_2293.JPG) Attachments ---------------- 100_2293.JPG (96KB - 152 downloads) | ||
FinFan |
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Elite Veteran Posts: 709 Location: Poznan, Poland, Europe | I agree, the bottom button of the selector is fully visible from this angle, Powerflite's "L" would be cut. BTW,just think : she went down the vault with all the buttons clean and the descriptions visible. | ||
57plymouth |
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Expert Posts: 3577 Location: Blythewood, SC | http://bacooper.myphotoalbum.com/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album... RADIO http://bacooper.myphotoalbum.com/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album... TORQUEFLITE http://bacooper.myphotoalbum.com/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album... TWO BARRELL (see vacuum line) Any questions? | ||
d500neil |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil! Posts: 19146 Location: bishop, ca | Yeah; I got one: the car sure is covered by that brownish mud-stuff. I wonder what the composition was, of the water-and-dirt , that got THRU the concrete, and gunnite !!!! It certainly aoppears that a significant amount of "dirt" was transported thru/into the vault! One might imagine that relatively clean water might have percolated through the vault, but, judging from the "dirt" that is everywhere in/on the car, I'm wondering if the river-FLOODING, which happened at least once, during the 50 years, might not be responsible for much, or all(?) of the water/dirt damage, to the car????? | ||
57plymouth |
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Expert Posts: 3577 Location: Blythewood, SC | A lot of that red stuff is rust. How do I know? The "samples" I (ahem) gathered off the car are magnetic. That means metal, which means rust. | ||
RoyalGate |
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Expert Posts: 2011 Location: Ballwin, Missouri | OK, Who is going to Volunteer to crawl in there and stick his head up under the dash to see if there is actually a radio in there or just an open hole behind the buttons and knobs????? Edited by RoyalGate 2007-07-07 4:21 PM (Radio or No Radio.jpg) Attachments ---------------- Radio or No Radio.jpg (94KB - 134 downloads) | ||
57plymouth |
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Expert Posts: 3577 Location: Blythewood, SC | If I could I would. | ||
Rebels-59 |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+ Location: .Norfolk..Mafia.. ,England UK | If all you Guys chip in and pay for my Flights, I will Gladly Volunteer............. | ||
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