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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
   
Location: bishop, ca | Hello Borje/Gary, or is that Gary/Borje?
As I have been called an "idiot" and not knowing "s-h-i-t-from-shinola" by Gary/Borje, in regards to my statement about having intimate knowledge about Aivar's former car, and its restoration, let's see if the following information qualifies as being "intimate".
1. I have known Aivar since 1986, when I advised a friend to sell his 1958 NY'er convertible to Aivar, which Aivar eventually sold to B., and which B. has since sold.
2. I have assisted Aivar in decoding his other 57-61 Dodges that he has owned, including the subject 59 CRL D500.
3. Aivar bought the car from OR, thru Bo Malefors via a finder's commission, around 1991.
4 I inspected and documented and decoded the subject '59, while it was disassembled and stripped-out, at Aivar's shop.
5. I have photographs to confirm the following information that I have obtained on/about the car:
6. I have the P/T plate, which I have decoded. It is a Detoit-built single 4-barrel D500 convertible, in its present color scheme, but it originally had a white vinyl top, with MANUAL windows and a manual swivel seat. It was "Scheduled" to have been built on 9/29/58 so that it is a very-early production car.
7. I have (a copy of) its BROADCAST SHEET, which confirms the above information, but which also confirms that the car was built with the following Accessory Groups (which I will not break-out, here): Deluxe Radio Group, Convenience Group, and Deluxe Appearance Group.
8. The car, as sold to Aivar, had a 1957(!!!) D500 engine (single 4-barrel) engine installed in it.
9. As also photographed by me, at Aivar's shop, the car was in #4 condition. Its front body clip was completely disassembled, the interior gutted, AND the rusted-out trunk-floor and rear-body was cut-out, for new panel installation work.
10. I ground-down the rear frame rail, and applied a penciled-over scotch-tape rubbing, to confirm that the frame rail stamping was actually NOT (unfortunately) the missing OEM engine's number, but, rather, the car's "Shipping Order Number" : M0929-71001 .
11. I documented the existence of the OEM D500 emblems' (former-) placement, on the fins, and documented the OEM paint scheme.
12. I inspected and documented and decoded the 1959 Custom Royal 4-dr sedan D500 that Aivar bought from Lari Stumpf which was completely driveable and in overall strong #3 condition, and which Aivar proceeded to cannabalize in the restoration of the convertible.
13. That sedan sacrificed its single 4-bbl D500 engine ( # ML383-18604) and power windows, sheetmetal and trim/equipment.
14. I inspected the car, and the remains of Stumpf's former car TWICE, yearly, at Bo's shop, when I would attend the Barrett Jackson auctions. The first visitation showed the car to be in virtually the same condition as I had seen it, at Aivar's shop, except now/then it had wheels installed on it. The next year, the car was about 85% completed, but still needed to have the (incorrect) black Hartz-type top installed onto it.
So, let's recap: would knowing/observing Aivar's former car to document it's Paint/Trim data plate, Its Broadcast Sheet, its Frame-rail coding, its non-original engine, power windows and top, and documenting its restoration progress, at Bo's (yeah; I did brain-fart about the recreation of the car, at Bo's, and not all in-house, at Aivar's; I seem to recall that Bo's working on the car was a part of the finder's-fee/purchase agreement deal on the car; but, maybe that was (also) a part of the deal on Aivar's SECOND 1958 NY''er convertible purchase, which had Bo doing ALL of the work on that car.).....constitute an "intimate" knowledge about the car?
I think so, and, photographic-evidence is available to support my statements.
Edited by d500neil 2008-06-07 5:17 PM
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| Boy, Bishop, a little "thinned skinned" aren't we? This seems to far more about your ego than documenting the car(s)? |
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | Börje asked to use my computer ,He like you, Neil is a long way from being a computer Geek. Like I said , I don't dispute your knowledge, but a kinder and Gentler Neil, might be appreciated by more users here, than just Me.
We do appreciate your knowledge about the cars, but you leave the impression that no car is worth anything or is worth less, unless they are EXACTLY, as they came from the factory.
We both know about the quality of workmanship that went into Aivar's former car, and was just pure luck that the
car was originally Red & white. Except for the power windows, and some engine parts, it would be very hard to tell these cars, (Börje's and the one on Ebay) apart so why should the former seller be stuck with a white, "Politically correct car", if that is not his choice? Both are superb examples of what Dodge did or could have built in 59.
Yes maybe the one that was born with the 383 , a wealthy collector will pay for, but I dont think most of us here fit that description.
We like to know what our cars were---your knowledge comes in handy here, but we like to see our cars appreciated as they are now, and I think you have a bit of a weakness in this area.
Like I said, first goal with me and my car is to do, like you said aivar does, take a number one car and drive it to a number three, but the way you decribe some cars, and mine in particular, I think I started with a #11 car and "God, & The Bishop", only know what kind of a number it has now.
Am I gonna take off all the Custom Royal Trim, and I gonna take out a motor that runs perfectly on 87 Octane, replace a lightweight (relatively speaking) Aluminum 727 TF that's just been rebuilt and replace it with a cast iron one, that is harder to get parts for? Am I gonna paint the thing blue and put in a black and white coronet interior in it---------just to keep the wealthy collectors happy and the Bishop?----I bet even you can guess the answer to that one.
I love the car as it is now, and so do all the people that see the car, as I drive, "Fat Dumb and happy", down the street, whilst I whittle down it value , by doing what I like to do most, DRIVE IT!!!
Gary |
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Location: Apeldoorn, Netherlands | I don’t see any significant discrepancy between parties here. Some know a lot about OEM whilst not stating anything else is worthless, easily proven by their own chosen performance, safety or whatever improvements.
And all here agree that knowingly mispresenting a car for sale – on eBay or wherever – is not the right thing to do.
We all love the same cars.
Could we, please, stop being so personal? For I’m getting kind of ashamed being part of our community here.
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Location: .Norfolk..Mafia.. ,England UK | D@MN..
I only been away a week and Neil Finally Defends Himself... Maybe Jim should Buy It Back , Then all the arguments can Stop.. |
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| Clive: I can't afford to buy it back!! Since Allen worked his "magic" with the car, it is nearly perfect and will bring big bucks--look at the current (new) auction bidding! Once again, anyone who gets this car will have one of the best in existence! |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Jim (Helm); my "ego"????
I wasn't the one calling-names, and defaming anyone...please go back and read the messages and tell me where I called
anyone anything-derogatory.
Or does "Bishop" (instead of my name) "your Highness" (I like that one!) or "idiot", or not knowing "Sh-i-t from Shinola"..... serve as terms of endearment where YOU live?
And, I took a some satisfaction, but not great enjoyment, in documenting my intimate knowledge of the recreation of Aivar's
former car.
How is that feeding my ego, when I get called-out to justify a statement of fact ?
And, Gary/Borje, a #1 car is generally accepted as being a NON-driven, very-recently-fully-restored "trailer queen".
A #2 condition car is a VERY clean 'driven' (typically, but not always, a former #1-) car, which shows varying-extents of having been driven, like Borje's car presently is.
Thought you guys would know those definitions.
Edited by d500neil 2008-06-09 1:59 PM
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | Börje, may, I don't and could care less.
But thanks, anyway.
Gary |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Gary/Borje, continuing-education is important. |
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Location: Hell's Outhouse - a.k.a. Buckeye, Arizona | Well Neil, I now know enough to say that I can't/won't ever own a #1 car - I tend to drive 'em all.
Besides, what the heck's the fun of fixing up a car just to sit there and look at it? |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Yeah, I think that my own car's physical condition was a legitimate strong #2, when it won Best in Class at three WPC
club's national meets ('83, '86 & '87--long time ago).
According to then-president Sherwood Kahlenberg, my car almost got Best-in-Show Dodge, at 86 Colorado Springs meet, but
got beat by a 1970 Panther Pink Challenger convertible, for that award.
Around 1990, Trailer-Queen FWDLK'ers became rather common at meets.
Now, I just drive and enjoy the car, and keep it as clean as I can.
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| Ok, Bishop, you win! You 'da man! The more you pontificate, the more sure of this I become! |
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Location: NY & VT | Pardon me if I'm wrong, but I think Neil isn't saying the owner should be stuck with a "politically correct" white paint job, or that a car should never be altered, etc etc, but merely that on eBay it shouldn't be represented as an original #1 car, and I'd agree. |
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | I agree too, and after a little coaxing from Börje, and others, as ya saw the car was relisted.
Gary |
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Location: Apeldoorn, Netherlands | Needles to say I agree, too. |
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Location: Parts Unknown | The way so many guys on this list "get their feelings hurts" over simple contrary comments belies a lot of personal insecurity.
Pretty basic psych 101.
Wonder what that is all about ?
Neil is going to tell me my car did not come with power windows, seat, Solex, leather, has incorrect paint and top, and was never available with a floor shift Richmond Gears 5-speed, swivel seats, or six bolt valve cover 906 heads ..... and so on ...
And I will say to Neil, .. "you know what ? You are right !"
The truth is, he IS right ! (most of the time). He has devoted countless hours to studying the data and he knows his s h i t !
Where it goes awry is where the listener has some inner guilt feeling of doing something wrong and bad and incorrectly assigns some sort of beration to Neil's simple statement of fact regarding OEM data/ research. It is in no way an attack or otherwise, ... just a statement. If a person CHOOSES to own a statement as some personal attack, ..... hmmm .... ? What does that say about that person ?
First of all, it indicates a narcissistic tendency to think "it is all about them". Secondly it indicates personal insecurity. And from responses I often see here, it indicates a very lacking skill in interaction and communication.
Remember that old saying "If the shoe fits ... " ?
I would like to think we all operate from some "higher plain" of thinking because we (obviously  ) have an elevated level of vehicle appreciation, but sadly, we all do not share the same paradigm.
One of my most life enlightening moments was Paradigm Training in Academy, and how one deals with a rapist, serial killer, etc. and can find a seemingly normal guy you might easily sit down and share a cold one with, yet so much underlying paradigm psychology is miles off.
Believe it or not, violent convicted felons can learn to see the world from a place that does not make them feel so threatened and react badly. It does not seem too much to ask other car enthusiasts to do a little self inventory and adjust certain responses to not own what was not intended by others.
Just a thought.
*cheers*  |
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| Sheesh, Doc, thanks for the psycho-analysis! I always knew there was something wrong with me because I get irritated when people pass opinion (researched or not) off as fact. But now that I know that I am in the company of rapists and serial killers, I feel much better! Must remember--"Neil knows his s**t", "Neil knows his s**t"---! And, "I am guilty of some offense if I disagree"! I think I've got it, by golly! Thanks. |
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Location: Connecticut | So while all this psycho-analyzing was going on, the car sold for 150K !!!! Sheesh ! And the seller can rest easy knowing that he was up front about the changes made to the car.
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Location: Parts Unknown | carjock - 2008-06-12 8:57 AM
Sheesh, Doc, thanks for the psycho-analysis! I always knew there was something wrong with me because I get irritated when people pass opinion (researched or not) off as fact. But now that I know that I am in the company of rapists and serial killers, I feel much better! Must remember--"Neil knows his s**t", "Neil knows his s**t"---! And, "I am guilty of some offense if I disagree"! I think I've got it, by golly! Thanks.
******************************
Jimbo, ....
Little secret between you and me ....
( I wasn't referring to you ! ) .. or anyone else in particular.
Just stating some basic psychology 101
I guess if you feel the shoe fits then go ahead and own it.
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| Just funnin' ya', Doc--I don't take much personally these days. And how about that sale price--as I said quality and flash sells. This car oozes both of those. I'm really happy for the seller and believe the buyer got one of the best there is. |
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | Did the seller tell you anything about the new buyer?---Where He Lives, etc. Apparently He is loaded, as a friend of mine tells me He bought a Vette for about 250 Grand, not long ago.
Gary |
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Location: NY & VT | Yeah it's those guys who are driving up prices to ridiculous heights and the average guy out of the hobby.. |
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Location: Parts Unknown | firedome - 2008-06-13 7:23 AM
Yeah it's those guys who are driving up prices to ridiculous heights and the average guy out of the hobby..
**********************************
I want to be "one of those guys" !
I seem drawn to cubic dollar pits.
Where can I sign up ?  |
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| I haven't heard from Allen as to who actually ended up with the car, yet, but I'm sure that I will. As soon as I do, I will post the information here. And regardless of all of the discussion about the car here, I feel sort of like a "proud dad" since I was the one who had the car built and have a whole lot of myself invested in it. I just wish that I'd have gotten the same price that Allen did (LOL)! |
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Location: .Norfolk..Mafia.. ,England UK | 1959Dodge - 2008-06-12 2:10 PM
Did the seller tell you anything about the new buyer?---Where He Lives, etc. Apparently He is loaded, as a friend of mine tells me He bought a Vette for about 250 Grand, not long ago.
Gary
GARY.. He is Loaded, As he SOLD the Vette for $250,000.. Also sellling These as Well
http://motors.search.ebay.com/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQfrppZ25QQsassZcannon772
Chances are he is a Dealer of Classic Cars and will put it in a BJ Auction, OR a Collector who Swaps his Collection about.. Either way he seems sure of the True Value.. |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Location: .Norfolk..Mafia.. ,England UK | JIM.. You may see it again Soon, As he is located in Texas.... Probably sell it to you for £200,000 LOL..
Do you get the feeling you were Robbed when you Sold it... LOL
P.S......... What you done with Wild Bill....????????????
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Location: .Norfolk..Mafia.. ,England UK | Last post from previous page..
1959Dodge - 2008-06-12 2:10 PM
Did the seller tell you anything about the new buyer?---Where He Lives, etc. Apparently He is loaded, as a friend of mine tells me He bought a Vette for about 250 Grand, not long ago.
Gary
GARY.. He is Loaded, As he SOLD the Vette for $250,000.. Also sellling These as Well
http://motors.search.ebay.com/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQfrppZ25QQsassZcannon772
Chances are he is a Dealer of Classic Cars and will put it in a BJ Auction, OR a Collector who Swaps his Collection about.. Either way he seems sure of the True Value.. |
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | Yep, I think you are correct. He has sold several cars as well as a lot of parts, on Ebay.
Gary |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | I notice that the car's buyer/seller guy-dealer prominently displays the P/T plates on the 58 Caddie & 69 Fart that he's currently
selling.
I'd like to see his prior $250K Vette sale; Clive/someone, could you post a reference to that auction-site?
I'd like to see how well he advertized its condition, etc., and the bidding on it.
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Location: .Norfolk..Mafia.. ,England UK | d500neil - 2008-06-12 11:38 PM
I notice that the car's buyer/seller guy-dealer prominently displays the P/T plates on the 58 Caddie & 69 Fart that he's currently
selling.
I'd like to see his prior $250K Vette sale; Clive/someone, could you post a reference to that auction-site?
I'd like to see how well he advertized its condition, etc., and the bidding on it.
CAN,T...........
Ebay has Pulled the Link,, I tried using the Feedback from Buyer and Seller to access the Auction, Buts it says NOPE..... |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Thanx; was afraid of that....
BTW, you get my PM w/pix to post, on that other thread, here? |
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Location: Hell's Outhouse - a.k.a. Buckeye, Arizona | Good Lord - I guess the guy's loaded.
That Caddy ain't a '58 & it ain't no ordinary Caddy - it's a '57 Cadillac Eldorado Brougham 4 door hardtop. The thing cost over $13,000 when new and came with everything standard, including a wet bar folded in the back w/crystal tumblers, ladies' vanity on passenger side w/perfume, memory set power seat, power trunk release, power hood release, POWER KEY IGNITION and a few other goodies I can't recall off the top of my head - suicide doors, yet it's a true hardtop.
These babies are practically unobtainum - yeah, that's the actual ebay photo:
Edited by 1955Coronado 2008-06-12 7:35 PM
 ('57 Eldorado Brogham.jpg)
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 '57 Eldorado Brogham.jpg (85KB - 178 downloads)
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | You know; for as much money as it can bring, at the B-J, and given, that it's NOT likely ever to be driven any great
distances on the open road, ever-again, I wonder why the seller-dealer-guy didn't go ahead and install the proper
www bias-ply tires on it, to enhance its vintage-restored appearance? |
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Location: Hell's Outhouse - a.k.a. Buckeye, Arizona | d500neil - 2008-06-12 4:51 PM
You know; for as much money as it can bring, at the B-J, and given, that it's NOT likely ever to be driven any great
distances on the open road, ever-again, I wonder why the seller-dealer-guy didn't go ahead and install the proper
www bias-ply tires on it, to enhance its vintage-restored appearance?
Well shoot - if the wheel covers are any indication, the above is indeed a '58.
But, it looks like the slim whites are indeed OEM though, Neil:
 ('57 Eldorado Brougham2.jpg)
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'57 Eldorado Brougham2.jpg (68KB - 138 downloads)
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | I dunno; those look suspiciously like radial tires on it, but the setting sure is 50's.... |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Those thin whitewalls were "cutting edge" styling on that car in 58. I think they look like sh-t, operating from the paradigm of radials and what would come to my beloved finned cars ten years hence. But they really were a style setting concept that was introduced on that car as very special equipment. |
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Location: Hell's Outhouse - a.k.a. Buckeye, Arizona | From what I know, that B&W pic is from an original sales brochure.
And, my mistake earlier, the Eldorado Brougham didn't have a power trunk release - it has a POWER TRUNK LID!!!!! Never seen it in action until now - check the video of the "power trunk" in action: Up and down:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBVx9ZnhXO8 |
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Location: Hell's Outhouse - a.k.a. Buckeye, Arizona | Alright, the seller's Eldo Brougham may be a '57 afterall - looks like the B&W pic above may be an EARLY ad using "regular" '56-'57 Eldorado wheels.
But, to help confirm the OEM-ness of the slim whites, here's a '57 Eldo Brougham pic at an intro show, 1957 (Brougham #2 off the line according to: http://www.car-nection.com/yann/Dbas_txt/brg09.htm):
 ('57 Eldorado Brougham3.jpg)
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'57 Eldorado Brougham3.jpg (20KB - 138 downloads)
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Location: Under the X in Texas | The OEM tires originally on those cars were US Royal Masters and are bias ply. 9.20 /9.00 x 15. They were highly popular with customizers and hot rodders when still available back in the day. Kind of the supreme production tire of their day. They had a very large diameter - something like 29.5" and gave anything they were installed on a "presence". Some of us remember them because the sidewalls were kind of radially grooved both between the wheel and the whitewall and again from the whitewall to the tread. I have a set of four of these in the barn. Can photo one if anyone is curious. |
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Location: Hell's Outhouse - a.k.a. Buckeye, Arizona | StillOutThere - 2008-06-13 5:32 AM
The OEM tires originally on those cars were US Royal Masters and are bias ply. 9.20 /9.00 x 15. They were highly popular with customizers and hot rodders when still available back in the day. Kind of the supreme production tire of their day. They had a very large diameter - something like 29.5" and gave anything they were installed on a "presence". Some of us remember them because the sidewalls were kind of radially grooved both between the wheel and the whitewall and again from the whitewall to the tread. I have a set of four of these in the barn. Can photo one if anyone is curious.
I'm finding all this out as I go, as I've not done a whole lot of research on these cars (have never seen one in person, infact), but it looks like, from the original press portfolio released in late 1956, the original tire size was 8.40 X 15 - still a pretty beefy tire:
 ('57 Eldorado Brougham presser.jpg)
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'57 Eldorado Brougham presser.jpg (51KB - 142 downloads)
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | I wonder if the 8.40X15" tires would be thinner cross section than the 9.00x14" tires used by CHRY/IMP ?
Taller, sure, but how-wide, cross-sectionally? |
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Location: NY & VT | His Eldo has wheel covers while the brochure one has what I believe were called "Sabre" wheels - very early aluminum forged wheels that most Broughams had, including those I saw at Cad shows I went to back in my '47 Fleetwood 60-S days in the early '90s. |
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1959 Dodge Custom Royal D500 Convertible
