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Regular
Posts: 81
Location: Northeast Tennessee | I'm sure this has been covered before, and I did search the site but kept coming up with the same answers so I need your help. Had my local very reliable driveshaft shop set up to replace my ball & trunion joint with a u-joint set up on my 60 Desoto, he had replaced several B&Ts over the years said he had all the parts. I get my driveshaft over there and mine is different than than others hes done, it's larger diameter on the flange part where it bolts to the trans. I searched the site here and found a spicer part# of 2-2-329 for that flange and thats the one he already knew to use but the problems is the bolt circle diameter. The 2-2-329 is 3.125" dia. best I can measure mine is 3.250" diameter, have you all run into this before? If so what did you do? According to the spicer cataloge they don't make one with that bolt circle, any ideas? Help me please. 
Edited by adventurer 2008-10-21 10:15 PM
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Expert
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Location: Netherlands | So can't they just drill some new holes?
My Driveline-shop just modified an existing unit to fit the flange on my transmission. |
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Expert
Posts: 2824
Location: Snohomish, WA. | There are two ball and trunnions. One (bigger) for the big blocks, and the smaller was for the slant six. Maybe he only did slant six conversions?? The smaller one may have been used on the poly 318 too. don't remember for sure, but there are definitely two versions.
Mike |
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Regular
Posts: 81
Location: Northeast Tennessee | I have the larger one, after must reserch I found a company that make ones that is right, don't have it yet but by all dimensions it should be right. Powertrain industries. #3102-40 it has a 3.250" bolt circle with the correct 4" pilot diameter for the brake drum. It will be here tomorrow and we'll see. so for all you that have the larger ball & trunion Powertrain Industries has the right part but you have to go thru a dealer to get it.
Thanks for the replies.
Larry |
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Regular
Posts: 81
Location: Northeast Tennessee | Got my flange yoke today and it works like a charm, fits the drum very well. Only issure and it's a trival one is that you have to just start the studs threw the flange and put the nuts and washers on, tighten it down to pull it down. If you put the flange all the way on you can't start the nuts, a little bit of grinding would cure this but it's easy enough to just put the nuts on and tighten them down. Hope this info helps someone in the future. 
Larry |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1060
Location: Building incorrect cars since 2000!! | larry
thanks for the info i will be needing a driveshaft built soon for my 60 ply and now I know where to order the piece. I had a slant 6 as well and it did take the smaller shaft. Did you have your mad from aluminum?
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Regular
Posts: 81
Location: Northeast Tennessee | I just had the front part of the drive shaft replaced. Like I said my problem was that front flange that bolts to the drum, I guess because my cars a big block car it used that larger diameter trunion joint. I can get all the part numbers used to make this new front section on Monday if you would like.
Larry |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1060
Location: Building incorrect cars since 2000!! | Ok that would be great. I will have to have a custom shaft made since I swapped rears and put a dana 60 in mine |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1060
Location: Building incorrect cars since 2000!! |
Larry
Did you get your driveshaft made?? |
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Wise Old Village Idiot
Posts: 3591
Location: Dellslow, West ("By God") Virginia ! | Kenny J ( I think) did this conversion many years ago! Posted, bfore and after pictures. They're deep in the archives someplace.
Best to email him, and ask direct, what parts he used.
There have been some newbies, wander too deep into the archives,,,,,,, (sigh) and have NEVER been heard of again! |
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Inactive by user's request
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada | Right here, guys:
http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=24110&...
The sad news is, I don't know what parts the shop used to create this replacement.
K.
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Expert
Posts: 3575
Location: Netherlands | I had a driveline-shop make me a nice HeavyDuty driveshaft for me for my '64 Chrysler NY. I also had them upgrade the rear U-joint to the larger unit.
But since my '60 Chrysler NY has 500 cubes under the hood now I'm using the driveshaft on this car...
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 474
Location: Rushford Minnesota | can someone give me an idea what the conversion will cost?, i need to service the shaft on my 59 fury, or if i can get a source for the flange,i have a 2piece chevy shaft that can donate the slip joint |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 314
Location: San Antonio Tx | Its been awhile since I checked but Drive Shaft Specialists in San Antonio will build a converted driveshaft for your car. It seems they were reasonable at the time. You tell them the car you have and they will send you a form with very detailed instructions for measuring. I ended up having mine done by the shop that installed the new engine and trans, part of the package so I couldn't give you a price. |
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Inactive by user's request
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada | I paid around $300, but it was an entirely new driveshaft and balanced. Labor here is $110 per hour.
K. |
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Regular
Posts: 89
| Good article on this conversion, with pictures, here.
http://www.earlycuda.org/tech/ujoint.htm
Mark |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 500
Location: Upper East Tennessee | I am trying to get this done to my driveshaft and the shop told me the flange joint side is no longer available. Does anyone have a source for these or have one they'd be willing to sell?
Thanks!
Tim Michel
423-921-4454 |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 395
Location: Netherlands | Can I ask why these conversions seem so popular? Is there anything bad about the Ball & Trunion system that we should be aware of?
From what I can read they were well capable of handling a lot of horses, would like to know if there's room for improvement....
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Expert
Posts: 3399
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | Might have a lot model engine and trans. Major parts if required could be tough to get, otherwise as you say I would leave it alone. |
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Posts: 4533
Location: Ripon, WI | Parts are tough to get... would be the biggest... You have to know who to buy them from, and you can't just get them anywhere. |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 500
Location: Upper East Tennessee | The drive shaft technician told me the spline shaft balances much better and will be trouble free. If I can't find the upgrade I will have him re-tube the shaft with the ball and trunion unit. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | http://www.northerndrivetrain.com/product/SPI-2-2-329.html |
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Veteran
Posts: 144
Location: Chicago, IL | Just dropped off my driveshaft at Chicago Driveline for a conversion. I'll post pics and a price when I get it back. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 6203
Location: Big pimpin' | Windsor Wendy - 2011-10-17 7:29 PM
Can I ask why these conversions seem so popular? Is there anything bad about the Ball & Trunion system that we should be aware of?
From what I can read they were well capable of handling a lot of horses, would like to know if there's room for improvement....
Well, for starters, that boot that seems to ALWAYS be busting causing you to have to pull driveshaft, take shaft to machine shop to PRESS apart the old unit, only to find the "Cross and Roller" has worn out.
then, there's the trouble free maintenance of an actual U-joint [Read able to be greased]...
Of course, I don't have to tell you about the worn Cross and Roller and it's "torque handling" capacity.
As with Disc brakes, there's newer, better, less trouble ways of doing things and this is one of them.
Edited by dukeboy 2012-04-11 11:02 PM
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 7409
Location: northern germany | Windsor Wendy - 2011-10-17 7:29 PM
Can I ask why these conversions seem so popular? Is there anything bad about the Ball & Trunion system that we should be aware of?
no. replacing the b&t is one of the common fl restoration mistakes. properly serviced these things last forever. its a clever design. unlike as with these conversions the bearings and sliding part is completely sealed away from the elements. it holds alot more grease than a c&r (regular u joint) and unlike the c&r caps the balls rotate around the trunnion/rollers and always completely submerged in grease.
the b&t in my car shows no signs of wear after 52 years and 320+k miles and i bet i was the first who regreased it 1988! and i'm pretty sure i stress my drivetrain more than most people (big block, snapped a axleshaft last year with slicks) i had to replace the rear c&r u joint a couple of times in the past 25 years even though i serviced it regularly. i know a b&t behind a torque 610 hp big block without problems. now there are new quality rubber boots available and the crappy old stock boots bernbaum was selling are no longer a problem or you can just use a new universal boot. and of course you don't have to press out the trunnion to replace the boot  many people do not follow the shop manual and forget about the breather, thats when problems arise. sure IF you need parts they are expensive but not as expensive as a c&r conversion so imo replacing the original b&t makes no sense.
Edited by 1960fury 2012-04-15 4:52 PM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 395
Location: Netherlands | Thanks for confirming that Sid, that's just what I thought...
Like you I think I was the first one to service ours and the B&T looks and feels exellent! The boot on ours seemed to have survived
50 odd years with not a scratch on it. I have a NOS boot just in case so I should be all right for donkeys years to come... |
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Expert
Posts: 1730
Location: Michigan | I think I need to get mine rebuilt. Get a vibration around 60 miles per and it just gets worse as you go faster. Feels like it comes from the center of the car. The thing is finding a place to get it serviced. Someone who knows what they are doing. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 7409
Location: northern germany | Windsor Wendy - 2012-04-15 5:19 PM
Thanks for confirming that Sid, that's just what I thought...
Like you I think I was the first one to service ours and the B&T looks and feels exellent! The boot on ours seemed to have survived
50 odd years with not a scratch on it. I have a NOS boot just in case so I should be all right for donkeys years to come...
yes in 25 years with these cars i never came across a b&t that was worn out even in the most neglected junk yard high mileage cars with torn boots. the "grease" in my b&t i serviced in 88 was jet black and like honey and the boot still had its factory straps on it yet it survived fine up to this day. if you have a good b&t thoroughly clean it and repack it with quality synthetic teflon grease install a new boot/breather and forget it for the rest of your life. |
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Posts: 3399
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | My 64 Max Wedge car ran the B&T for 10 years of competition and never broke the front unit, low 11 car at 121, |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 7207
Location: Victoria, BC, on Vancouver Island, Canada | A friend of mine has gone through three B&T joints in the past 10 years.....the original and two replacements. The original lasted about 120,000 miles, the replacements each had only several thousand miles put on before the wear set in. The car vibrates 20-30 mph on acceleration from a stand-still. Examination of the inside of the trunion shows definite wear inside the trunion, and these were packed solid with grease. Now mine is doing the same thing, and it was just removed and re-packed 1 year ago and had a new boot put on. It's most likely the original one, at 117,000 miles. We have a plan for a repair, when that happens I will report on it - within the next few weeks it should be done, but it does NOT involve conversion to the other type of U-joint. It seems to be that possibly that the hardening of the steel in some of the replacement trunions is not as good as the originals. |
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| Did you balance the solid packing of grease? If not the imbalance will cause vibration and wear. $250 will get you a complete driveshaft conversion. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | where you gettin one for 250$ -----------------------------------------------------------later |
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| Yes, it has been covered, recently http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=29468&... |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 7207
Location: Victoria, BC, on Vancouver Island, Canada | rbmain - 2013-06-09 9:28 PM
Did you balance the solid packing of grease? If not the imbalance will cause vibration and wear. $250 will get you a complete driveshaft conversion.
My friend Ron is a 50 year mechanic, MoPar specialty as well, so assuming he knows what he's doing when packing the grease. He says he never saw these wear at all on the 1940's early 50s cars but has seen many of them go bad on the late 50s and up MoPars but only after a lot of mileage. Now he says the replacements that are available are not lasting and thinks they may not be hardened properly. The car that he has now that currently has a bad B&T is my ex-1960 Polara. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 7207
Location: Victoria, BC, on Vancouver Island, Canada | Well, tonight the repair was done on my B&T joint, and I have to say that it cost nothing but a half hour of labour and a bit of aluminum from a sheet metal shop. I actually had 2 aluminum disks made up, 1/4" thick and 4" in diameter to match the diameter of the front of the trunion. The sheet metal shop I deal with for my business didn't even charge me for them. So tonight I went out to Ron's place and we un-bolted the trunion, installed one of the disks as a spacer in front of it, and bolted the trunion back up. Ron previously installed the other one in his Polara several days ago and said the result was spectacular.
So what this 1/4" spacer does is nothing but effectively move the bearings inside the trunion further ahead to an un-worn area inside the trunion. My trunion had been re-packed just last spring, but early this spring it started a nasty vibration while accelerating from a stop. I am assuming that at 117,000 miles that it is the original trunion. Ron had been thinking about this low-cost experiment for quite some time so we decided to go ahead and try it. I have to say as well, the result is nothing short of spectacular. It's as if a completely new B&T joint was installed, as there is now absolutely NO vibration.
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Expert
Posts: 2524
Location: Houston | I'm glad it worked for you, but that fix (which is an old, old trick!) has one issue. The new spacer occupies the register on the rear of the trans so that the yoke no longer is centered as intended. It sounds like yours lined up on center but the next 5 cars that do it might be off and have the vibration issues you'd expect by running off center.
The other issue is the worn area is still there, so as you hit bumps or load the trunk of the car you will start to encroach upon it. The balls will see a lot of 'action' as they ride on a smooth, then worn, surface, back and forth etc. |
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Location: Muskego, WI | And it only took half a decade. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 7207
Location: Victoria, BC, on Vancouver Island, Canada | GregCon - 2013-07-02 11:04 AM
I'm glad it worked for you, but that fix (which is an old, old trick!) has one issue. The new spacer occupies the register on the rear of the trans so that the yoke no longer is centered as intended. It sounds like yours lined up on center but the next 5 cars that do it might be off and have the vibration issues you'd expect by running off center.
The other issue is the worn area is still there, so as you hit bumps or load the trunk of the car you will start to encroach upon it. The balls will see a lot of 'action' as they ride on a smooth, then worn, surface, back and forth etc.
I'm not sure how it could be installed off-center, when the studs from the parking brake are fixed in position, and the holes in the trunnion housing are fixed in position. The plate just acts as a spacer between the two. However, time will tell, and at some point if it starts acting up it will be time to deal with a conversion. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8947
Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | but what is the play in the bolt circle . in the ones i have its minimal but what would .001 movement do to balance-----------------------------------------later
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Expert
Posts: 2524
Location: Houston | I'm not looking to create a big controversy or run down your fix. I just wanted to point out that the spacer negates the registered fit that Chrysler intended.
In theory, the holes in the trunnion flange could be way oversized and it wouldn't matter - the register is what keeps it on center. The fact that the holes are a tight fit is what is allowing your fix to work; they were drilled on center and their tightness is maintaining the on-center positioning of the two flanges. But a series of bolt holes is never as good as a proper register when it comes to concentricity. That's why Mopar wheels all registered on the hub of the axle and why aftermarket wheels which are not 'hub centric' can and do have runout issues. It's gotten better with CNC machining but it's still a less-than-ideal method. |
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Expert
Posts: 1730
Location: Michigan | Nice fix... gonna have to try that one myself. |
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Ball & Trunion conversion HELP!!
