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| Ok the fisheye thread got me thinking about this...In metallic paints, I have a curse of the evil tiger stripe, and have been told everything from my gun's not expensive enough (which I don't believe) to too low a pressure...it doesn't seem to matter how strict I am with my form, or what pressure I run, it still happens on the flat surfaces. Can any of you painting pro's help with this please?
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Expert
Posts: 3575
 
Location: Netherlands | I'm not in the least a pro but could it be you're holding the gun too close to the surface?
Or the nozzle isn't fanning out the paint wide enough?
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| No, I hold the gun exactly the distance as recommended, and I always check my pattern and according to my painting books, it's a correct pattern. I thought I was laying it on too think but tried lighter application and it still did it. It's something to do with being a flat surface, it doesn't happen as much on the sides. |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | wrong size nozzle---------------------------first thing a do it yourselfer should do is go to a good paint store and talk to the counter people . most all have shot some paint at some time and even some are trained body men . if asked they will give you any info you need-----------------------an old timer once told me , ya there is some clouds in it , with that paint i just shot i can give you 25 shades . information is the greatest asset for a do it yourselfer------------------------------later |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: Big pimpin' | I personally have NEVER seen ANYBODY, including the factory,564r3w1q` totally get rid of "Clouds" or Tiger striping".....I usually try to shoot metallics like a buddy of mine does...He's all over the place when done and then gets the shine with the clear coat....Doing it in one stage paint will be near impossible to get rid of striping.... |
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Location: Blythewood, SC | dukeboy - 2008-12-08 12:12 PM
I personally have NEVER seen ANYBODY, including the factory,564r3w1q` totally get rid of "Clouds" or Tiger striping".....I usually try to shoot metallics like a buddy of mine does...He's all over the place when done and then gets the shine with the clear coat....Doing it in one stage paint will be near impossible to get rid of striping....
+1.
I just shot the front bumper of my daily driver, and it is metalflake. I used 5 VERY light coats, 10 inches of distance, 40 psi in an HVLP gravity gun with a 1.6 tip. I put on four heavy coats of clear to block and buff.
I also painted it in two directions. Each coat was 90 degrees to the last. It helped a lot. I have no clouds or stripes. Plenty of orange peel, but that's what sandpaper is for. |
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Walter passed away on Jul 29, 2014. We will miss you, Walt!
Posts: 5358
Location: Heaven Above (Formerly Oklahoma City,OK) | Multiple light coats applied at 90 degrees ill definitely be heading in the right direction. Another thing about metalflake/high metallic paints is how it's mixed and the how often the paint is stirred/shaken. Never mix "just enough to do this part of the car". Alwyas mix enough to do the whole car. if you have to keep re-filling the paint gun, keep the paint agitated (shaken or stirred) between gun-loads. Don't let the mixed "supply" of paint to sit any lenth of time without at least stirring it, if not shaking it on a commercial shaker. Lastly,a couple of ball bearings in the paintgun cup are a must. Keep the psaint gun shaken eniugh to hear the ball bearings moving in the cup. Horizontal surfaces must be shot with the nozzle of the gun at a 90 degree angle to the flat/semihoizontal surface. If it's not, you're guaranteed to have stripes, even with non-metallic paints. Walt |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 929
Location: Finger Lakes NY | too close or too small of a fan pattern and not enough overlap between passes |
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Location: At "The Rock" in upper East Tennessee | I use what I call a "dust coat" and I don't seem to have any problems with met. pattern. A lot of it depends on your spraying habits...some of which are hard to break. As mentioned above angle plays a factor as well as distance.
What works for me is multiple light coats in the base. If you are doing it with single stage then it takes a lot of practice to rid yourself of this problem.
Spray how your used to then try a couple of 10+" away dust coats. |
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| Thank you all for the help, this 'curse' drives me freakin nuts. Everyone had a different opinion, which is good. On the job in the pic shown, I used a HVLP gun for the first time...so at the time I blamed it on that but since then I went back to a suction feed and it still occurs, although less noticable. I'm able to lay down non-metallics like crazy, they always turn out awesome, but a person's limited with them. The coolest colours are always metallic, I think.
So Brian, I'm suprised you have had good results with HVLP, especially with 'flake - they are nice to use as far as waste paint. I think the key here by the sound of it, is LIGHT coats. I've heard of the ball bearing idea before, never tried it...it couldn't hurt. And I'll mix the bloody hell out of the paint, and keep it mixed.
I think I need to bring in some scrap parts and just keep spraying them, trying these things. Switching to Base/clear sounds like a good idea, but in my line of work I often need to use tougher paint...I use Endura polyurethane excusively, toughest sh*t on the planet I'm told.
So is Endura sold in the states? |
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Location: At "The Rock" in upper East Tennessee | It is, I have found it to be kind of like old Emron......Don't go there..........I use an HVLP gun and I must say that it took FOREVER to sell me on using one but once I did I never looked back. I even use one with a 1.7 tip on for primers.
That's another thing, what size tip do you use? I have found that with this new "Iwata" brand gun I bought that the tip size doesn't change how much material comes out or even the pattern only how fine the mist is.....I LOVE IT. $500 gun but worth every penny in the time it saves after the paint is laid down because there is little to no cut and buff needed.....That is if I use a 1.3 tip. I just did a motorcycle tank in this freaky burnt orange met. with it and it had zero striping in it. |
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| I hear you Donnie, and I'll keep it in mind...I'll have to check my tip size but the gun I have now's just a $150 suction feed unit. When I built my paint shop I designed the air supply system for HVLP, at least, should I ever go back to it. Who knows, when the water-based primer becomes mandatory next year it might be a whole different ball game to learn anyway! Is that happening in the states too? |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 444
Location: North of the 49th |
HI
So ...to pull this conversation back to the prime topic...the real cause of "tiger striping" you guys need to get back to basics... HVLP or Suction Feed high pressure , gun adjustment is the key...not just fluid adjustment but the "fan" adjustment , take your gun and a flat sheet of some non-porous material and set your gun up as you would and take one quick "shot" at the flat sheet and look at your "fan" despite the fact that you may have what looks like a nice oval pattern check the distribution of material inside the fan, tiger striping is caused by a heavy or heavier bar of material being deposited on the upper and lower tips of the fan making the fan look like an hour glass....readjust your fan bleed which exits from the wings of the fluid head to eliminate the hour glass look and tiger striping goes away. Application technique of metallics is a factor as well but not as great as gun adjustment , with the Old synthetic enamels , Acrylic enamels and catalized Acrylic enamels the steps are the same... 1st coat is the "tack coat" followed by a "medium wet coat" concluded by a "wet coat ". Reducer selection according to gun air pressure and shop temperature is a factor when it comes to recoat sensitivity of the paint and gun adjustment so keep that in mind too. With the enamels the way it layed down on the surface is the way it looked when dried ....thats the school I came from...base clear is soooo easy its laughable. I still use Centari a lot 'cause I can still get it locally but I've sprayed Ditzler, Rinshed Mason (before BASF bought them) and a lot of Dupont (Dulux and Dulux II) and you might laugh but I've used quite a bit of Cilux (By CIL ) which was nice paint... I also only use Devilbiss or Binks... my present gun is a Binks 2001 with a 66sk fluid head previously I used a Binks 317 with an 86F fluid head....I'm thinking about moving to HVLP due to the superior material transfer ratio and the fact that it will become mandatory .... Oh another tip when doing metallics put a ball bearing in your paint cup ..keeps the metallics mixed as you move about. |
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| Thanks a lot Grunau, I will try the pattern test. When you talk about fan bleed, how is that adjusted? I'm just a self taught painter, never was trained. I should try HVLP again, I think I got a bad taste of it becasue it was a cheaper gun (around $200) and I was trying to spray endura polyurethane metallic with it. I did love how efficient it was.
I really have to switch to base/clear...I keep hearing this. The main reason I never went to it is because I've seen too many base/clear jobs have the clear flake off - even factory jobs, like our '95 Ford truck. What's your opinion of that, is that due to the base coat being sanded too fine?
Edited by 58dodgeregent 2008-12-18 10:09 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1497
Location: Lordstown, Ohio | Stripes from the paint is caused by holding the gun not perpindictuarl with the surface. It is most common with your enamels. It the basecoat world it would happen, only if you are hosing the product on. If you choose to go to basecoat clearcoat you will need the HVLP gun. You can use a siphon type gun, but your ending result will not give you material transfer, or "atomizition" of the product. With the urathane clears, a HVLP is the way to go. You will find less product used along with a better finish. Keep in mind when you choose to go with basecoat/clearcoat a full face mask will be a must. Perferably a freshair system if you can. The fella above listed very good advice too.
As to the truck. That was an issue called delamantion. Ford at one time had a open recall on this, but it only lasted for a few months. The result of that was bad product from there suppliers. When you see the cars with the paint missing down to the sealer, that also was delamation. Bad product from supplier
Wayne
By the way, I was a heavy line collision repair tech for 22+ years. A national trainer for a nationwide bodyshop for 3years. Currently, I do home repairs and occasionlly do cars still |
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| Thanks for your input. I have used a full face fresh air mask for years, as Endura is said to be the nastiest stuff on the planet. The other thing about HVLP is, I designed my air supply system for it, with 1" copper line, drains, et cetera so I may as well go back to it.
As for flawed paint, I shouldn't have been picking on base/clear as I've seen other types fail too. |
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| I am showing my age I know but in the old days there were guns available specifically made to spray high metallics. I never used them but was told they were very helpful. Perhaps those are still available.
Doug |
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| Good to know...I did my first BC/CC job the other day, and it turned out just awesome - and so easy. I'm sold. |
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Location: At "The Rock" in upper East Tennessee | I'm tellin' ya!!! BC/CC is so easy a well trained monkey can do it. Being a monkey myself I just love the stuff. |
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| Haha, I hear you Donnie...I couldn't believe how great it turned out. So do you find you need to sand the basecoat before spraying the clear, for super smoothness, or is that needed? In my case I didn't, just sprayed the base, waited an hour, and sprayed clear. I was just going on what the monkey at the paint store told me  but this was also on a new, already-perfect plastic front bumper (03 Buick). |
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Location: At "The Rock" in upper East Tennessee | only if something bad happens do I sand the base. Ask any paint rep and they will tell you it is better to get the clear on the base ASAP to avoid pealing of the clear later. I will lightly go over it with a tack rag
Now when I say "something bad" I mean like dust, or like the last time I had to rework a bird had gotten into my paint area and you can picture what that did.
On the subject of spray guns I recently got this one and I can't say enough about it. The pattern is so easy and the fluid adjustment is just as easy to get right. On top of the laying down a metalic finis is effortless with this thing.
It's a Devilbiss GTI Millennium HVLP |
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Walter passed away on Jul 29, 2014. We will miss you, Walt!
Posts: 5358
Location: Heaven Above (Formerly Oklahoma City,OK) | Hey Donnie, how much air pressure do use at the gun when you shoot BC/CC with that gun? Walt |
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| Thanks Donnie, how much was that puppy worth? I need to bite the bullet and get one of those. Yes I'd like to know too what pressure you're using with BC/CC? |
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Location: At "The Rock" in upper East Tennessee | I shoot at what Devilbiss recomends for that gun which is 20 to 25 for base and 25 to 30 for clear. Thats at the gun reglator with the trigger pulled.
It comes with a few tips and I only use the 1.3
Here is where I got it. It's lsted down near the bottom.
http://www.smartshoppersinc.com/Devilbiss/devilbiss.html
On clear coat some will argue with this but here is a tip I got from a guy that has been running his own body shop for 30+ years and he has had ZERO problems with it.
When mixing your clear if you will reduce it with the same reducer that goes in the base coat by 20% you will have little to no orange peal and with the 1.3 tip you can lay down a job that needs little to no cut and buff.
For example, 20oz of clear get's 4oz of base reducer and 5oz of activator. The clear to acvator mix is 4 to 1.
Edited by 58Donnie 2009-01-21 7:36 PM
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| I checked out the link, the price isn't as bad as I thought. It'll be interesting to see if the local guys can compete with online shopping, now I have something to go by. That guy should know his stuff, interesting...here's another story a friend recently told me. He talked about a guy who hooks a battery to the body and to ground somehow, he claims it keeps the dust away from the body while painting...due to the charge repelling the dust. Ever heard of that? |
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Location: At "The Rock" in upper East Tennessee | I have heard of that but never tried it. I may look into it. That gun was around the $300 to $400 range till I found it there and it was so much cheaper. The guy who runs the place said he makes nothing on stuff like guns because he buys them in bulk and sells them for cost to brink in customers.
It worked because I bought the gun and then about $500 more stuff which he said was his profit items. I had to ask him how he could sell the gun so much cheaper than everybody else and thats what he told me. |
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Member
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Location: Atchison,Kan..right on that muddy river | I couldnt read all the post but ill just through this in,i can shoot metallics with a Binks or a Harbor Freight dont matter,dust coats,wide ass fan,over lap 50% no probs,look at the lines of the car and air gun the whole car with no paint if you have too,a 600 dollar gun wont fix stupid.Not that you are in any way or anybody but the technique is most important,Larry Watson and Gene Winfield are awseome examples of tech.I been painting for 20 years and pinstriping for ten,tech mumbojumbo is important but in the end its you and the gun and the "art" of spaying mettalics!!!!!Keep practicing and keep practicing and flowing with the cars lines and do the longest passes you can!, |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: Big pimpin' | Exactly JL...I actually have better luck with the old siphon gun than the newer HVLP, but that's cause I have more experience with the older gun....And it was around $125.00 about 17 years ago.....(Bought when I was 19)....
Edited by dukeboy 2009-02-01 2:13 PM
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| Donnie, I was wondering why that site's prices were so good, I was expecting that gun to be much more.
JL, I recall reading that quote from Larry Watson, about making as long a stride and pass as you can...which I do...but my main concern is what is causing it only on the flat surfaces, as in hood, roof, tops of doors, and trunk. The sides have never been an issue for me. But it just occured to me, the one thing I'm maybe doing different with the flat versus sides is possibly laying the paint on too heavy, because you can get away with it on the flat surfaces.
Regardless, from now on I'll be shooting excusively base/clear. But I'm sure going to do more practicing too, especially if/when I get a new HVLP gun. I've never practised on anything other than a car door, even then just to check my spray pattern. Maybe I should haul a junk car in there and pretend it's a serious job, and keep trying different things till I figure out the specific problem. God knows I have enough dead cars laying around (non FL of course), and enough extra paint that'll never get used.
Edited by 58dodgeregent 2009-02-01 8:47 PM
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Location: Atchison,Kan..right on that muddy river | If i was you i would buy a 4by8 sheet of 20ga or so sheet metal,i am 34 years old and though still ever so slightly moist behind the ears i would say this is a gun angle prob!!If the gun was screwy or mix off the sides would be blotchy or "striped".
I have been painting a roof and find my wrist is in a bind to keep the gun "perpindiculer"(spelling??)So to adjust i hold the gun in a whole different way to correct this.Maybe you are (in the back of your mind)worring about gloss and lack of orange peal on the flat surfaces you are getting to close and slowing down??Also i didnt see if this is single stage metallics,you build them slow as base/clear but going base clear helped me,that way color is all that matters not the "Wetness".
Some jobbers will mix some clear into your base to help the fist coat of clear lay out,some crazys guys even spray clear over a single stage paint,but is risky.."solvent pop"......I use all b/c now unless its a tractor something.
More pressure at the gun is better than not enoug for metallics,you waste more but can adjust by pulling back on trigger and distance,to little pressure equels crappy panel layout..i'll best i didnt post anythnig nobody else didnt already but just tryin to help |
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| That's a good point about slowing down and getting closer to the surface, I know my arm gets real tired by the time I'm about halfway through the half of roof/hood/trunk I'm painting. And the sheetmetal idea, it's expensive but that gave me an idea to just bring in hoods and trunks off my junk cars, set them on sawhorses and have at it.
My cheaper gun is poorly balanced and heavy, that doesn't help either. Thanks for the input, I'll post my findings as I come to them, maybe it'll help someone else out. |
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Extreme Veteran
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Location: North of the 49th | Hi
Ok so..one more time...adjust gun properly ...ensure pattern is correct and material deposition is even inside the "fan" ..maintain even gun distance from surface, (8 to 9")) or spread fingers out measure from tip of thumb to tip of little finger , ensure proper overlap use smooth long passes and you're good. |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: Big pimpin' | As long as one has buffer, one can get that "Chip Foose" look....I don't worry how sh**ty the finish is, as When I'm done with the buffer, it doesn't really matter...BC/CC of course... |
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Location: At "The Rock" in upper East Tennessee | It's a lot less work in the end the slicker the spray job is. I wish I had had better equipment like I do now when I did my car and I also wish I had known a couple more things then that I do now she would have been a lot slicker.
The more attention you spend on getting your spraying methods down the better your final work will be and never think you know it all....the day that happens put down your spray gun. Always be willing to learn and try something new. |
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| Dukeboy, I hear ya, I used to wonder how those guys like Chip layed down a "perfect' paint job...truth is, they didn't, they just finished it off after.
Donnie, that is one thing that bit me in the ass...thinking I knew more than I did! I can't believe looking back on it, that I never even tested the new hvlp gun on anything before going at my most prized possession!! At least it wasn't a customer's car though. On my last job, I got a few runs, which I now have to fix...sure would have been easier if I was more careful the first time. |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: Big pimpin' | I've got a buddy that tried and TRIED to get that slick as glass look through a siphon and an HVLP gun....
I came over one day after he had painted his '70 Challenger R/T for the 5th time (Plumb Crazy purple) and Told him before he wastes anymore money on Paint, Let me buff it and see what happens....This was single stage Enamel....
I just wet sanded and buffed a small area and now he buff's ALL his paint jobs, single stage OR BC/CC...
When I'm shooting Mettalics, whether it's Single stage or BC/CC, I just get the base color on as EVEN as possible, THEN, with BC/CC job's, I lay the CLEAR coat on as the shine coat...With Single stage, I just make sure I have enough material on the car in order to buff it out, Although I have stayed away from shooting single stage unless the customer HAS to have it..... |
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| I want to try wet sanding and buffing, especially the roof of my car which has no shortage of paint...it's pretty orange peeled up. Unfortunately it's Endura polyurethane, so I have my work cut out for me...so what grit should I start with, 1000? Or maybe slightly rougher being it's so tough?
That happened because that crappy gun I had was not putting out paint worth a darn, no matter how it was adjusted...then I realized to remove the filter in the cup...and all of a sudden the paint came out of there like a freaking shutz gun, lol. Onto my roof. |
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Location: At "The Rock" in upper East Tennessee | 1000 grit is where I would start on that. Some will say you can go lower and you can but there will be palces that will never buff back out. It's better to just take the time and start with 1000 to knock the top off, 1500 to get it worked down to slick and then 2000 to even it all out. Be sure to use a palm pad and not your fingers or you will leave lines in it.
Soak all the paper you intend to use in water for about an hour or so before you start and use lot's of water. I like to use a spray bottle with a dab of Dawn dishwashing detergent in it. |
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Expert
Posts: 3967
Location: DFW, TX | The grit you want to use all depends on how much texture you have to begin with.
My dad did this Ghia in base/clear, sanded with 2000 and 3000 (probably overkill but he wanted it perfect - and it was) and then rubbed it all out. Once of the nicest paint jobs I've seen..
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| Donnie, thanks for the advice, I'll try that. And you work at 45 degree agles, right? Not back and forth.
57Burb, that is a nice looking job, nice car too. But I don't think 2000 grit would cut Endura unless you went at it for a week!!
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Location: At "The Rock" in upper East Tennessee | Thats true. 1500 on Base/Clear is plenty strong enough and thats only if it's pretty ruff. That Endura is tuff stuff. |
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what is the REAL cause of tiger striping?
