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| I've had this car for awhile but just got it running and driving. It's intended as a kind of 'rat rod' project, to keep the money in it as low as possible and and to just have fun with. I named her Holly, in honour of Buddy Holly who passed away the year she was built. It was a 6/Std car, Poppy with a Pewter roof, with 4 options: 2 tone paint, side spear trim, back up lights and a cigarette lighter. Now she has a fresh LA 318 with a poly 303 crank, 'purple' cam, 4 barrel intake with a Quadra-jet carb and dual exhaust, mated to the original 3 speed stick shift. It's living proof that that CAN be done!
(thanks Rodger) The only minor issue I found was the old crank pulley didn't line up with the fan pulley anymore, but I found a fan pulley from a 60-66 GM 6 cyl truck one worked ok.
The LA actually fit in there like a glove, especially being narrower than a Poly. It's got lots of power even with 2.94 gears - (it had 3.73 gears originally). The original stick shift shifts smooth, silent, and easy...it's a real pleasure to drive. I put in electronic ignition, and modified the rad area to accept the newer rad, hoses, shroud, and fan from the donor car which I got the engine, a '82 5th avenue. I also used the rear trans mount, fusebox and horns from the same car.
73 must be her lucky number, she was parked in '73 with 73,000 miles on her, a local car her whole life. I've replaced the floors, one quarter and rockers, with one eyebrow still to do but that's merely asthetics.
I redid the brakes adding a dual cyl and junction box from a 70 Dodge Monaco w/power drum brakes, (manual brake cyl was stupidly expensive from the parts store, this one was under 40 bucks) The brakes work well, I used dot 4 fluid. I found I had to lengthen the pushrod and move the rod pivot to a lower hole on the brake arm, after drilling it to a larger size for the bolt. I did this because there was not enough leverage in the original hole, due to the newer power cyl being a deeper stroke. The pedal would hit the floor before bottoming out the cyl. I'm adding all this because I hope it'll help some people out, as long as they do their conversion EXACTLY as I've said, they'll get the EXACT same result, in theory! I'd be happy to provide the length of the pushrod or any other details upon request.
As for the wheel cylinders, I just honed them up and put new rubbers in them from the local Napa. I got the shoes relined, the drums were still usable.
The first pic is of the car when I first got it.
Edited by 58dodgeregent 2009-02-13 10:42 PM
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Posts: 1508
Location: new york | COOL CAR SUPER STUD! GOOD LUCK and HAPPY MOTORING! Victor.. |
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| Haha, thanks! The Licence plate holder was in the trunk when I got it...never seen it before, but then it's before my time! |
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Expert
Posts: 3155
Location: NY & VT | Great fun car! Funny to see "Dodge" on a Plyymie rear. I need a shop building like that!!!! Something might actually get done in winter.
Edited by firedome 2009-02-18 10:45 AM
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Veteran
Posts: 171
Location: New Richmond, WI | Hey sweet car!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Thanks for the specifics on the brake work. |
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Posts: 1210
Location: SWITZERLAND | For you Jeff. I hope one day your "Holly" will get as perfectly restored as this illustration is and the car looks as: http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=17885&posts=83#M163840 - SERGE -
Edited by sermey 2009-02-19 4:19 PM
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| Thank you guys, and Sermey thanks for posting that ad!! I've never seen a 59 Regent ad. I especially like it because it shows a 2 door sedan too, which I have also. |
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Expert
Posts: 1819
Location: Vancouver, BC | "Poppy" and "Pewter" are American colour names. I suspect the colour codes on your car are R and M. Chrysler of Canada called R "Maple Red" and was Ditzler 70813, the same as the 1959 Plymouth's "Flame Red". (CIL : 2333-2178, DuPont Canada : DU-599-H)
"Pewter" was code M on the U.S. Dodge and "Dawn Grey Metallic" on the DeSoto Firesweep, but 1959 Chrysler of Canada's M was Oxford Grey Metallic. But all were Ditzler 31660. (CIL : 2352-2175, DuPont Canada : DUM-593)
The Regent ad is actually from the 1959 Dodge brochure.
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Expert
Posts: 1819
Location: Vancouver, BC | Forgot to mention your 5th option - the heater / defroster. Could not tell by your photos, but rear arm rests were optional as well.
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Location: Parts Unknown |
This car is too cool.
I like your rat rod idea too.
59 Dodge and Plymouth rank as about my least favorite FL cars, ... and this one combines what I like least about them !
But somehow it works and really is a cool car !
Don't get me wrong, I like ALL finned cars just for being finned !
Jeff, living where you do, are you the only FL guy within a thousand miles ? Do the locals think you're nuts ? !
That color insert on the sides is neat.
I'll never understand what was going on in the heads of the marketers building these crossbreed cars for non-US markets .... a lot of expense and effort was made to what end ?
Cool, cool ..... glad you were able to save it.
Keep the pix coming.
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| Chrycoman - 2009-02-22 11:47 PM
"Poppy" and "Pewter" are American colour names. I suspect the colour codes on your car are R and M. Chrysler of Canada called R "Maple Red" and was Ditzler 70813, the same as the 1959 Plymouth's "Flame Red". (CIL : 2333-2178, DuPont Canada : DU-599-H)
"Pewter" was code M on the U.S. Dodge and "Dawn Grey Metallic" on the DeSoto Firesweep, but 1959 Chrysler of Canada's M was Oxford Grey Metallic. But all were Ditzler 31660. (CIL : 2352-2175, DuPont Canada : DUM-593)
The Regent ad is actually from the 1959 Dodge brochure.
You're probably right, thanks for the insight on this! I the codes were RRR and MM-1. I know on my other 59, the code on the tag lines up with the U.S. codes, CC-1 for "Star sapphire poly".
Edited by 58dodgeregent 2009-02-23 2:17 PM
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| Doctor DeSoto - 2009-02-23 11:47 AM
This car is too cool.
I like your rat rod idea too.
59 Dodge and Plymouth rank as about my least favorite FL cars, ... and this one combines what I like least about them !
But somehow it works and really is a cool car !
Don't get me wrong, I like ALL finned cars just for being finned !
Jeff, living where you do, are you the only FL guy within a thousand miles ? Do the locals think you're nuts ? !
That color insert on the sides is neat.
I'll never understand what was going on in the heads of the marketers building these crossbreed cars for non-US markets .... a lot of expense and effort was made to what end ?
Cool, cool ..... glad you were able to save it.
Keep the pix coming.
:)
Thanks for your honesty Doc, I welcome constructive critisism. My personal opinion is about the opposite to yours, no offence to 59 Plymouth owners but I don't care for the 59 Plymouth front end (though it's still gorgeous next to a lot of the compititon, especially Ford), but I love the Plymmie fins and Dodge front end, so for me it's the ideal car.
I do feel the car needs an altitude adjustment on the back at least, with the Dodge's heavy looking front end. My 2 door sedan is even worse that way, it looks front heavy big time! This car also has those taller bias grip, studded tires in the back, so that doesn't help. But they're so old school...I like them, it's what the car would have ran back in the old days I think, and they were free (picked them up, and the fronts and all 4 rims, at the local dump!)
I think the total investment so far including purchase price, ($700 for 2 '59 Regents) is less than $2000, using used parts I had around mostly. Can't argue with the economics of that!
And yes I'm one of the few FL owners around here, and yes the locals probably do think I'm nuts but I like it that way - being different. Going against the grain is a way of life for me. This car's a prime example, I can't wait to hear the critism about fixing up a 4 door plain jane car, on the street!
The colour insert on the sides is actually just the original red that I polished, removing the oxidization!
I totally agree and have pondered that a lot, why all the work to create a hybrid car that nobody in this country knew was fairly unique anyway!
I've since put Plymouth caps on her; a big improvement in style. I'll post more pics first chance I get.
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 515
Location: Lubbock, Texas | Wow. Nice. It's always nice to see one back on the road. |
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Posts: 3891
Location: Northen Virginia | Congratulations, your first photo remind me of my 1957 Imperial you made my earliest dreams a reality.
I never drove mine, since the engine start to knock badly, before I could finish the brakes, for a test drive. That was in 1992, never drove it!!!.
Thanks for save this 4Dr from the crusher!!!! The 59 dodge is one mad looking car. In my opinion, is the best looking car of the whole FL line. Great Job!!
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Location: Vancouver, BC | 58dodgeregent - 2009-02-23 10:52 AM
Chrycoman - 2009-02-22 11:47 PM
"Poppy" and "Pewter" are American colour names. I suspect the colour codes on your car are R and M. Chrysler of Canada called R "Maple Red" and was Ditzler 70813, the same as the 1959 Plymouth's "Flame Red". (CIL : 2333-2178, DuPont Canada : DU-599-H)
"Pewter" was code M on the U.S. Dodge and "Dawn Grey Metallic" on the DeSoto Firesweep, but 1959 Chrysler of Canada's M was Oxford Grey Metallic. But all were Ditzler 31660. (CIL : 2352-2175, DuPont Canada : DUM-593)
The Regent ad is actually from the 1959 Dodge brochure.
You're probably right, thanks for the insight on this! I the codes were RRR and MM-1. I know on my other 59, the code on the tag lines up with the U.S. codes, CC-1 for "Star sapphire poly".
In the U.S., there were three different colurs for "C" :
Plymouth - "Starlight Blue Metallic", Ditzler 11795
Dodge - "Star Sapphire Metallic", Ditzler 11812
DeSoto Firesweep - "Glacier Blue Metallic", Ditzler 11812
DeSoto (except Firesweep) - "Caribbean Blue Metallic", Ditzler 11786
Chrysler & Imperial - "Nocturne Blue Metallic", Ditzler 11786
The Chrysler Corporation of Canada "C" was "Stardust Blue Metallic", Ditzler 11786
So the blue on your Dodge Regent is the same as the American Imperial, Chrysler and DeSoto (except Firesweep).
By the way, I have Canadian Chrysler paint codes back to 1937 (except 1942 & 1946) although actual paint chips for 1940, 1941, 1949, 1950, and 1954 to date. For American Chrysler products, the info goes back to 1929 or 1930, depending upon make. So my info for your Canadian 1959 Dodges is from C.I.L., DuPont Canada, and CPI (Ditzler) sheets and lists.
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| Thanks Bill, as usual you are a priceless resource on Canadian cars. |
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| hemidenis - 2009-02-24 4:59 PM
Congratulations, your first photo remind me of my 1957 Imperial you made my earliest dreams a reality.
I never drove mine, since the engine start to knock badly, before I could finish the brakes, for a test drive. That was in 1992, never drove it!!!.
Thanks for save this 4Dr from the crusher!!!! The 59 dodge is one mad looking car. In my opinion, is the best looking car of the whole FL line. Great Job!!
Thanks! That's too bad you never got the chance to drive it...that sucks. I agree, the 59 Dodge is a mean looking mother.
Do you still have the Imperial? |
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Expert
Posts: 3891
Location: Northen Virginia | Yes i still have it, so far I am about $5000+ in the 392 hemi and still in pieces, some day I am going to ride it!!!.. |
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| I know the feeling, Hemidenis...driving a forward look by imagination only, hands on the deteriorated, brittle steering wheel, looking out the cracked, milky windshield! |
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Posts: 3891
Location: Northen Virginia | Jeff, you could not describe my feelings better. You r describing me, in the seat of my Imperial. |
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Posts: 499
Location: A proud Canadian | You gotta love these Canadian built FL Mopars... Question, was this model ever offered in a 2 or 4 door hardtop version?? Also, I know this is a shot in the dark, but how many of the 59 Dodge Regents were built??? Good luck with this build, and keep the pics rolling! |
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| Billy-Jack, those are great questions...I don't know the answers, but I would guess that since the Regent was now the base model, it wasn't available as a hardtop. That was the case in '58 with the Crusader/Plaza model, which became the Regent/Savoy in '59, they were sedans only. So then you'd have to move up to a Viscount(replaced Mayfair, equivelant to Fury) to get a hardtop. It would have been cool if this car was a Viscount, a one year only model. But Regents seem to be my thing, lol. I believe the Regent was the common blue collar person's car, I kind of like that.
Production #'s, hmmm I could not even guess, (Bill? anyone?) but of the few '59 plodges I've seen around here, they're all Regents. If they were still the top seller, that is interesting because that would mean the majority of the buying public went cheaper in '59...even though they spent more in '58 - a recession year? Seems to me it should have been the opposite. I'm hoping someone more knowledgable than me will shed some light on this!
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| Chrycoman - 2009-02-23 12:00 AM
Forgot to mention your 5th option - the heater / defroster. Could not tell by your photos, but rear arm rests were optional as well.
Yes, that's right, forgot the heater again! I couldn't recall so I checked - no rear armrests. |
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Posts: 1819
Location: Vancouver, BC | Billy-Jack Ebare - 2009-02-25 6:37 AM
You gotta love these Canadian built FL Mopars... Question, was this model ever offered in a 2 or 4 door hardtop version?? Also, I know this is a shot in the dark, but how many of the 59 Dodge Regents were built??? Good luck with this build, and keep the pics rolling!
The Canadian Dodge was offered in almost the same models as the Plymouth -
Regent (Savoy) - 2-door sedan, 4-door sedan, 2-door Suburban, 4-door Suburban (2-seat)
Mayfair (Belvedere) - 2-door sedan, 4-door sedan, 2-door hardtop
Viscount (Fury) - 4-door sedan, 2-door hardtop, 4-door hardtop, 4-door Sport Suburban (2-seat)
Imported models -
Mayfair (Belvedere) - 2-door convertible, 4-door Custom Suburban (3-seat)
Although Chrysler of Canada imported the Sport Fury twins, they did not import a Dodge equivalent. They could have as Chrysler Export offered a Kingsway Lancer series based on the Sport Fury. No 2-door, 3-passenger business sedans or mid-series 4-door hardtops in Canada, either.
In addition to the Plymouth-based models Chrysler of Canada also built sedan and hardtop Custom Royal models and imported the Custom Royal convertible and Custom Sierra wagons.
The Regent and Mayfair models came with either a 251-cid flathead six or 313-cid, 2-bbl, poly V8, while the Viscount came with the 313 poly and the Custom Royal with a 2-bbl 361. A 4-bbl carb was the only engine option on V8 models. The imported models came with the same engines, interiors and exterior paint schemes as in the U.S.
I do not know production by body style. I am sure someone out there knows. Chrysler Corporation production figures prior to 1985 were total American and Canadian production. From 1936 to 1950 the production for Plymouth-sized Dodges included Canada and the U.S., but from 1951 to 1956 American-built "Plodges" were included with Plymouth. I believe Canadian 1957-59 figures are known, but they are also included with Plymouth.
Anyway, I do know that 4,534 1959 Dodge Custom Royal models (sedans and hardtops) were built in Canada plus 15,790 Regent, Mayfair and Viscount models.
Approximate production by series, including imports -
Regent - 6,817
Mayfair - 4,969
Viscount - 1,853
Suburban - 2,151
When new, the Dodge Regent models went for -
ME1-L - 6-cylinder :
2-door sedan - $2,725; 3,395#
4-door sedan - $2,791; 3,420#
2-door Suburban - $3,142; 3,680#
4-door Suburban - $3,227; 3,730#
ME2-L - V8 :
2-door sedan - $2,866; 3,515#
4-door sedan - $2,932; 3,540#
2-door Suburban - $3,283; 3,765#
4-door Suburban - $3,368; 3,850#
The serial number prefixes for the 1959 Dodges were M7 for the 6 and M8 for the V8 models.
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| Very interesting, thanks for the input! I wasn't aware the Mayfair was still offered in '59. |
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| Here's a couple more pics, with the other eyebrow fixed (metalwork done, anyway) and hubcaps...are the hubcaps off of '58 Plymouth, anyone?
The second pic shows what my garage is full of...Forward Lookers! Except now I can't get my daily driver in, and it's 30 below outside. Oops.
Edited by 58dodgeregent 2009-02-26 9:56 AM
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Expert
Posts: 3155
Location: NY & VT | I want a storage building like that... WITH those great cars in it!!
Do you have pics of your 'Dome?
Edited by firedome 2009-02-27 10:28 AM
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| Hmm, yes I think I do have pics of her...every time I look at that car I think what a shame it is she got that delapitated...she was such a pretty car. Nicely optioned too...I used the power steering setup from her, door latches, and sold a couple pieces of trim but there's still a ton of great parts on her. If anyone wanted her for parts I'd gladly give her to them but nobody's fixing up Forward looks around here. She's still got the 354 2 barrel/torqueflite. Can't save them all, though I try.
Edited by 58dodgeregent 2009-02-27 8:35 PM
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firedome1.jpg (126KB - 256 downloads)
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Posts: 1819
Location: Vancouver, BC | Any shots of the interior? Being a Canadian-built 1958 DeSoto it would be nice to have some shots of the seats and door panels.
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| I'll take some pics of the interior, what's left of it...she was home to a rabbit! |
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Posts: 2308
Location: The Bat Cave, Fairborn, OH | Very cool indeed! You're getting slack about dusting your cars though!  
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| Hehe, you're right, but I have no running water in the garage yet. Oh well, Spring's not far away - I'm chomping at the bit to get her out again!! |
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Location: A proud Canadian | Thanks Bill for all that info... That is truly a wealth of info, and goes above and beyond in answering any production number questions regarding these cars. BTW I PM'd you... Didn't hear back. Just wondered if you got the message?? |
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| Desoto pics, what's left of her...
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Is that a sort of textured vinyl, on the rear upper seat back, or is that a heat embossed cloth (lolol)???
I've never seen textured vinyl, before.
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| Neil, that's cloth (was green) on the upper seat back. I wish the inside was in better shape. But on the door panels, is heat embossed vinyl for the Desoto "crown" emblem. Much like 57 Plymouth/Plodge's forward look emblem embossed on the door panels. |
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Posts: 1819
Location: Vancouver, BC | Thanks for the interior shots. The interior may not be in the best of shape, but there is enough to tell what the design was like. I have been looking for shots of the Canadian 1958 DeSoto for a while now with no luck. Keep running across 1958 Fireflites, but never a Firedome. Although Chrysler of Canada built Firedomes in Canada, all Fireflites were imported from Detroit.
The three crowns emblem on the seat is actually the Chrysler crown emblem. The 1958 Chrysler model LC-2 used that emblem and I believe the interior of the Canadian DeSoto Firedome was shared with the LC-2, which was sold in the U.S. as the Saratoga and in Canada as the Windsor. No 122" wheelbase DeSotos or Chryslers built in Canada.
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| Your welcome, glad I could help. Interesting about the Chrysler emblem; no wonder Desoto was axed - they were so close to a Chrysler they used Chrysler emblems inside even!
Here's a question for you Bill, did Chrysler Canada actually build any parts, or did they just get them from the U.S. and then assemble the cars here? Reason I ask is, I noticed the driveshaft on this Desoto, has Detroit stamped on it...also the gas tank from the pictured '59 Regent had a Mopar sticker on the top, not Chryco...what gives? |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 7809
Location: Williams California | 58dodgeregent - 2009-02-28 7:00 AM
I'll take some pics of the interior, what's left of it...she was home to a rabbit!
Wow, Jeff, that must have been one hungry rabbit! Ate the cluster as well as most of the interior!!
LOL!
---John |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 530
Location: Wake Forest, NC | John. I believe that is Mr. Rabbit |
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| big m - 2009-03-05 10:53 AM
58dodgeregent - 2009-02-28 7:00 AM
I'll take some pics of the interior, what's left of it...she was home to a rabbit!
Wow, Jeff, that must have been one hungry rabbit! Ate the cluster as well as most of the interior!!
LOL!
---John
HAHAHAHA!!! Yeah, the rabbits are pretty aggressive 'round here. Ate half the floor too! LOL
Actually I took the cluster out...it's now a "conversation piece" in my garage.
Edited by 58dodgeregent 2009-03-04 8:16 PM
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 7809
Location: Williams California | Seriously, you've got a great place to work on, and keep your cars. ---John |
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| Thanks John, it's a big step up from my old open front shed, that's for sure! |
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Posts: 3967
Location: DFW, TX | What kind of condition is that front bumper in? |
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| Not too bad, it looks like the bottom edge has been bent a bit but the top half is decent. |
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Posts: 3155
Location: NY & VT | Thanks for the shots...a ? for Bill or anyone - were FireSweeps sold in Canada, or any Dodge built DeS or Chrysler? If so what were they named and where were they built? |
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Location: Vancouver, BC | firedome - 2009-03-15 7:23 AM
Thanks for the shots...a ? for Bill or anyone - were FireSweeps sold in Canada, or any Dodge built DeS or Chrysler? If so what were they named and where were they built?
DeSoto Firesweep models were never sold in Canada as the Firesweep and Custom Royal were in the same price range. From 1934 through 1960 Chrysler of Canada had two dealership networks, Plymouth-Chrysler and Dodge-DeSoto, thus making the Firesweep redundant.
The 1957 DeSoto Fireflite and Adventurer were sold in Canada but imported from Detroit, as was the 1957 DeSoto Firedome and the 1958-59 Firedome convertible. The 1958-59 DeSoto Firedome sedans and hardtops were built in Canada and in 1959 shared the interior seats and door panels with the Chrysler Saratoga.
In 1960 only the DeSoto Adventurer was built in Canada, again sharing its interior with the Saratoga, and was the only DeSoto series available. For 1961, the DeSoto was dropped and Dodge-DeSoto dealers became Dodge-Chrysler dealers.
For Chrysler, the 1957-59 New Yorkers, 300-C/D/E and Windsor wagons were imported from Detroit. The 1957-58 Windsors built in Canada were actually Chrysler Saratogas with Windsor nameplates. Thus no 122" wheelbase Chryslers in Canada. For 1959, though, the Windsor went to the 122" wheelbase and used the Dodge Custom Royal upholstery and door panels and the Saratoga was sold as the Saratoga.
The 1960 Windsor used the Canadian Polara interior, which was based on the U.S.-built Matador, and would use a modified version of the modified Matador interior in 1961. By the way, the Newport name never appeared on a Canadian-built Chrysler. The Saratoga carried on in 1960 and 1961, with the latter model being the same as the U.S.-built 1961 Chrysler Windsor.
For the big Dodges, only the Custom Royal sedans and hardtops were built in Canada in 1957-59 with convertibles and 1958-59 Custom Sierra models imported. The same situation held for 1960 with the Polara and for 1961 the Polara was replaced by the Chrysler Windsor at Dodge dealers. The Matador and 880/Custom 880 models were never built or sold in Canada.
The Canadian-built 1960 Dodge Dart and Plymouth shared Plymouth's seats, door panels and instrument panels while the 1961 models used the Plymouth instrument panel and Dart seats and door panels. The 1962 versions used Dart interiors right down to the Fratzog, even on Plymouths. Convertibles were imported.
Should point out that all imported models were built to U.S. specifications and not Canadian. Thus a 1958 DeSoto Firedome convertible sold in Canada had a 361 V8 while the Canadian-built sedans and hardtops used the Chrysler 354 poly, an engine also used on Canadian-built Dodge Custom Royal models. Paint colours and interiors on imported models were the same as sold in the U.S.
Engines on 1959 Canadian-built models used the 361-cid V8 on the Dodge Custom Royal and Chrysler Windsor while the DeSoto Firedome and Chrysler Saratoga used the B block 383-cid V8. Replace "Custom Royal" with "Polara" and you have the situation for 1960. The Canadian Windsor would used the 361 through to and including 1965.
All Canadian-built cars were built at the assembly plant on Chrysler Centre from 1929 through to 1983, except for the 1936 Airflow models which were assembled at the truck plant on Tecumseh Avenue.
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Location: Alberta, Canada | Chrycoman - 2009-02-21 11:47 PM
"Poppy" and "Pewter" are American colour names. I suspect the colour codes on your car are R and M. Chrysler of Canada called R "Maple Red" and was Ditzler 70813, the same as the 1959 Plymouth's "Flame Red". (CIL : 2333-2178, DuPont Canada : DU-599-H)
"Pewter" was code M on the U.S. Dodge and "Dawn Grey Metallic" on the DeSoto Firesweep, but 1959 Chrysler of Canada's M was Oxford Grey Metallic. But all were Ditzler 31660. (CIL : 2352-2175, DuPont Canada : DUM-593)
The Regent ad is actually from the 1959 Dodge brochure.
Bill, I'm in the process of picking out paint for my 59 CRL and have a few questions regarding these old paint codes. I'm having the car painted Maple Red and Dover White, but the code I have for Maple Red is:C-I-L 'NNN' #2333-2178 (this is off a 1959 C-I-L Color chart e-mailed to me some time ago from Mopar Geezer). I also have a 1959 American paint code chart from Ditzler which shows Poppy as *RRR. Did Dupont, Ditzler and C-I-L have different codes for the same Canadian paint colors? Maple Red is coded as NNN in the "Catalogue of Canadian Car I.D. Numbers" by Bill Watson. My understanding is that "RRR" refers to Iroquois Red in Canada. |
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Expert
Posts: 1819
Location: Vancouver, BC | Biff's '59 - 2009-03-17 10:23 AM
Bill, I'm in the process of picking out paint for my 59 CRL and have a few questions regarding these old paint codes. I'm having the car painted Maple Red and Dover White, but the code I have for Maple Red is:C-I-L 'NNN' #2333-2178 (this is off a 1959 C-I-L Color chart e-mailed to me some time ago from Mopar Geezer). I also have a 1959 American paint code chart from Ditzler which shows Poppy as *RRR. Did Dupont, Ditzler and C-I-L have different codes for the same Canadian paint colors? Maple Red is coded as NNN in the "Catalogue of Canadian Car I.D. Numbers" by Bill Watson. My understanding is that "RRR" refers to Iroquois Red in Canada.
The paint companies each had their own codes and coding systems. The only common points were the corporate paint codes and names, which naturally came from the car companies.
Thus, Chrysler of Canada's NNN, Maple Red, is common amongst all paint companies, but their own codes differ. And not all companies covered all colours. Ditzler and C.I.L. appear to have been the main suppliers as they rarely did not carry all the colours.
For Maple Red (NNN) (aka 1959 Plymouth "Flame Red") -
C.I.L. - 2333-2178
C.P.I. (Ditzler) - 70813
DuPont Canada - DU-599-H
DuPont (USA) - Duco 3036-H
Chrysler Corporation - C-7077-ES
For Iroquois Red (RRR) -
C.I.L. - 2333-2163
C.P.I. (Ditzler) - 70778
DuPont Canada - DU-529-H
DuPont (USA) - ??
Iroquois Red is an American colour as the CPI/Ditzler code is 5 digits. Canada-only colours were four digits. I have not been able to track down another car/truck company that used that shade of red.
Although Dodge's Spring Colour, RRR - Poppy, has the same code as Chrysler of Canada's RRR - Iroquois Red, the colours are not the same. Dodge Poppy is Ditzler 70911, which is the same as Chrysler's PPP - Carousel Red.
Now, to completely confuse you, Dodge's RRR when the 1959 models were introduced was Ruby, Ditzler # 70791. And Chrysler's RRR was Radiant Red and DeSoto's RRR was Castillian Red - and both were Ditzler # 70791. Castillian Red was offered on all U.S.-built DeSotos.
Other Mopar code NNN paints -
Dodge - "Rose Quartz" - 70884
DeSoto Firesweep - "Flamingo Pink" - 70884
DeSoto (except Firesweep) - no "NNN" code paint
Chrysler / Imperial - "Persian Pink" - 70848
So if you are looking to see which colours are the same, do not compare company paint codes or paint colour names. Compare the paint company codes as they will be the same for all uses of that particular shade.
Now you might be asking why DuPont Canada and DuPont (USA) codes are not the same. And where did C.I.L. come from. C.I.L. (Canadian Industries Limited) was formed in 1926 with the merger of a number of Canadian munitions and chemical companies. The major firms behind the merger and the two major shareholders in the final company were E.I. DuPont of New Jersey and Imperial Chemical Industries (I.C.I.) of Great Britain. C.I.L. thus gained the right to market DuPont paints in Canada and when C.I.L. began manufacturing auto paints in 1936 they used DuPont's code system with Canada-only paints all having four digits after the prefix.
In the early 1950's DuPont and General Motors came under scrutiny for antitrust violations. In the end GM had to, eventually, share all its bus patents and designs with other U.S. bus manufacturers, sell off its interest in Hertz and dispose of Euclid. DuPont, on its part, had to sell off its 30% interest in GM (DuPont was GM's largest shareholder)and had to dissolve its joint ventures with I.C.I. of which they had many all over the globe.
Thus in 1954 DuPont Canada Ltd. was formed, taking a number of C.I.L. plants and using the DuPont name for paints in Canada. Both DuPont Canada and C.I.L. adopted their own unique paint codes, which DuPont Canada used until switching to DuPont (USA) codes in 1971. C.I.L. auto paint carried on until I.C.I. sold all their auto paint businesses to PPG (Ditzler).
Other paint companies in the auto paint business at that time were Rinshed-Mason (taken over by BASF), Sherwin-Williams, Martin-Senour, and Acme. And all their codes have nothing in common with any of the other companies.
By the way, the Bill Watson that wrote "Catalogue of Canadian Car I.D. Numbers" is yours truly.
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Regular
Posts: 79
Location: Alberta, Canada | Bill, your book had been my 'bible' in gathering information for the restoration and general knowledge of my car. I am trying to restore it to 'as original as possible' and I thank you for the book and for your response to my question. There is nothing more confusing than trying to figure out Chrysler's paint codes, data plates, production numbers, etc. and it's even more confusing when you have a Canadian-built car. You have helped me a great deal. Your knowledge on the Canadian side of the Chrysler story is invaluable and much appreciated. I didn't realize you were the author of that book, but it all makes sense now. |
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59 Dodge Regent
