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Getting an old engine UNSTUCK
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jagster
Posted 2009-12-18 4:00 PM (#201249)
Subject: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK


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Hey, tried all the snake oil recipes I have, and so far, no luck on freeing up this 392 Hemi. Any and all suggestions greatly appreciated. Yeah, I know, just take it apart. There's got to be a way....doesn't there?
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59CRL
Posted 2009-12-18 4:11 PM (#201250 - in reply to #201249)
Subject: RE: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK



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jagster - 2009-12-18 4:00 PM

Hey, tried all the snake oil recipes I have, and so far, no luck on freeing up this 392 Hemi. Any and all suggestions greatly appreciated. Yeah, I know, just take it apart. There's got to be a way....doesn't there?


This will work and I have unstuck an engine that you couldnt turn with a 3 foot extension of the crank bolt. Spray PB Blast in the cylinders and let it sit, have a cup of coffee.... then work the crank back and forth.... it should free up the engine.
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wizard
Posted 2009-12-18 4:25 PM (#201251 - in reply to #201249)
Subject: Re: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK



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Diesel on top of the pistons could do the trick - leave it to soake for a couple of days
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Handygun
Posted 2009-12-18 4:42 PM (#201252 - in reply to #201249)
Subject: Re: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK


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those are some expensive parts to be forcing,pull your dist out and make sure it spins, pull your rocker cover to see your valvetrain is free, if you can pull the pan and remove all the caps you can and spray penetrant on all bearing to crank surfaces, pull the intake and spray down the cam and lifter valley, is the motor in or out of the car?is there a bolt adrift in the bellhousing? there are so many areas to seize, no pun intended. there is a good chance you'll break a ring and score the cylinder or wipe a bearing and score the crank...KA-CHING, very rarely is there a free lunch at the stuck HEMI diner. Good luck Ron.
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coronetx2
Posted 2009-12-18 5:40 PM (#201257 - in reply to #201249)
Subject: Re: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK



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PB blaster in the cylinders and a day or so!!!!
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big m
Posted 2009-12-18 6:15 PM (#201261 - in reply to #201249)
Subject: Re: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK



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A mixture of automatic trans fluid and diesel fuel, or acetone will generally do the trick to a condensation-seized engine. If you have an engine where water has been setting in one or more cylinder bore for some time, or the engine was run out of oil, causing a bearing to melt to the crank, chances of freeing the engine externally are slim.

Use a long bar on the flywheel ring gear to pry, using an opening in the bellhousing or a bolt in the rear of the block as a fulcrum. This will increase the turning power many times over, and you will not risk pulling the threads out of the crankshaft damper bolt.

---John
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d500neil
Posted 2009-12-18 6:25 PM (#201265 - in reply to #201261)
Subject: Re: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK



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Acetone is wonderful stuff, but it evaporates as you WATCH it!

John, with Ms. Belvie, what do you think would be the prospects for ever having HER oem-engine be freed-up?





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Shep
Posted 2009-12-18 7:34 PM (#201274 - in reply to #201265)
Subject: Re: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK



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Freed up or not it needs to be looked at internally, pan off and bearings, crank and pistons/cylinder walls inspected.
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lawrence
Posted 2009-12-18 8:15 PM (#201278 - in reply to #201249)
Subject: Re: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK



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Unless you are Big M or the like, then you drive it around and GO!!
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big m
Posted 2009-12-18 8:57 PM (#201284 - in reply to #201265)
Subject: Re: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK



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d500neil - 2009-12-18 3:25 PM

Acetone is wonderful stuff, but it evaporates as you WATCH it!

John, with Ms. Belvie, what do you think would be the prospects for ever having HER oem-engine be freed-up?

The odds are very slim there, Neil. As the aluminum pistons corrode, they actually expand into the cylinder walls, as the rusting cylinder walls return the favor.

By using reverse electrolysis, there is marginal hope, but there would be an extreme amount of pitting on the internal parts.

---John





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big m
Posted 2009-12-18 9:01 PM (#201285 - in reply to #201278)
Subject: Re: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK



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lawrence - 2009-12-18 5:15 PM

Unless you are Big M or the like, then you drive it around and GO!!


Larry, the engine in the Fury was stuck when I got it, but actually got 40,000 miles out of it before I had to pull it for an overhaul.

As Shep stated, though, there was damage [etching] to the bearings caused by setting in acidic used oil for 30 years or so that eventually began to knock.

---John



('57 Fury main bearings 001.jpg)



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phins
Posted 2009-12-18 10:33 PM (#201288 - in reply to #201285)
Subject: Re: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK



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I filled up my engine about 1 year ago with 4 gallons of kerosene. I'll let you know if it works soon. while looking into what I may need to do to free up my engine I came across this stuff. They say money back guarantee so what do you have to lose. says you need 4 cans of it at 20$ a can I'll try it if my kero doesn't work.

http://www.seized-engine.com/rust-seized-engine.html
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Kenny J.
Posted 2009-12-19 2:18 AM (#201290 - in reply to #201285)
Subject: Re: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK



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big m - 2009-12-18 6:01 PM

As Shep stated, though, there was damage [etching] to the bearings caused by setting in acidic used oil for 30 years or so that eventually began to knock.

---John


Something I need to consider with my '57's 354 and my spare 230 flathead.

K.
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MOPAR-TO-YA
Posted 2009-12-19 3:43 AM (#201294 - in reply to #201249)
Subject: RE: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK


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A 392 Hemi is worth to much money to risk breaking something. If it has been stuck for more than a few months, I wwould at least pull the heads, rod and main bearings. That is-after making sure that it isn't something unusual locking it up...........................MO
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hemidenis
Posted 2009-12-19 2:13 PM (#201311 - in reply to #201249)
Subject: RE: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK



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Well i had the same problem with my 392, THE ONLY WAY IT WORKED FOR ME was with Phins idea, just fill the engine with Gasoil or kerosene i mean fill it all the way to the valley pan, let it sit for a few days and try to turn it from the crank bolt. It works!!!

Of course you must take the spark plugs off and fill the pistons too. A side note is DO NOT disassembly the engine, I did that in 1992 and still apart.
Just remember the engine is basically stucked in the cylinders, pistons and rings

Edited by hemidenis 2009-12-19 2:29 PM
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MOPAR-TO-YA
Posted 2009-12-19 3:45 PM (#201319 - in reply to #201311)
Subject: RE: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK


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hemidenis - 2009-12-19 1:13 PM

Well i had the same problem with my 392, THE ONLY WAY IT WORKED FOR ME was with Phins idea, just fill the engine with Gasoil or kerosene i mean fill it all the way to the valley pan, let it sit for a few days and try to turn it from the crank bolt. It works!!!

Of course you must take the spark plugs off and fill the pistons too. A side note is DO NOT disassembly the engine, I did that in 1992 and still apart.
Just remember the engine is basically stucked in the cylinders, pistons and rings
Not neccessarily. If the engine has not been free from the time he got it, It could be several things other than piston to cylinder wall stuck. With 392 Hemi, I would not try to force anything!.................................MO
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hemidenis
Posted 2009-12-19 4:58 PM (#201330 - in reply to #201249)
Subject: RE: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK



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Well, is just my opinion, if you take it apart is nothing you are going to save anyway except, crank, rods and heads the rest must be replaced and we are talking about lot of $ on parts here.
Try to unstuck your engine and enjoy it, while you buy the parts for rebuild it. I didn’t know all that back in 1992. If for some reason the oil pressure goes to zero, then ok take it apart.
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hemidenis
Posted 2009-12-19 5:29 PM (#201333 - in reply to #201249)
Subject: RE: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK



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Another tip is that with a good flashlight you can actually look inside of the engine trough the oil pan drain. Valve covers must be opened to check the rockers, valve steam and oil pressure check.
This is the actual condition of my engine. Dead since the early 90's.

Edited by hemidenis 2009-12-19 5:32 PM




(DSC01841.JPG)



(DSC01842.JPG)



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Attachments DSC01842.JPG (130KB - 82 downloads)
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MOPAR-TO-YA
Posted 2009-12-20 3:41 AM (#201367 - in reply to #201330)
Subject: RE: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK


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hemidenis - 2009-12-19 3:58 PM

Well, is just my opinion, if you take it apart is nothing you are going to save anyway except, crank, rods and heads the rest must be replaced and we are talking about lot of $ on parts here.
Try to unstuck your engine and enjoy it, while you buy the parts for rebuild it. I didn’t know all that back in 1992. If for some reason the oil pressure goes to zero, then ok take it apart.
And then what do we do when a nain bearing seizes up and ruins the crank AND the block? We are talking about a 392 Hemi here and if they aren't worth anything, I would be glad to take that old junk one you have in pieces--off your hands. .............................MO
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narleycharlie
Posted 2009-12-20 2:32 PM (#201425 - in reply to #201249)
Subject: Re: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK



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Lube it up and hook the starter to 24 volts and bump the starter . Ya ll may think this sounds sick (beause its a hemi), but all it is is some iron parts you are trying to break loose . I ve seen it work too many times , pull the pan and make sure its not a bent rod before you try that .And then if its hooked to a standard tranny and is in a vehicle , lube it up and take it out on the road and pop the clutch a few times which isn t new news to ya ll I m sure .
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dukeboy
Posted 2009-12-20 3:04 PM (#201428 - in reply to #201425)
Subject: Re: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK



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If the engine as mentioned has sat with a large amount of water in the cylinders for a long time, you may not ever get it un-stuck..
I had a '68 HP 440 stuck so tight one time I hot tanked the engine short block with pistons,rods, and crank still in it hoping to save it, but ended up cutting the rods on about 5 of the cylinders before I could even get the crank out of it...There's always the "Red Wrench" on the pistons and a 2X4 with a BFH...

I've seen some engines freeze and crack from water inside the block during winter as well...

Edited by dukeboy 2009-12-20 3:16 PM
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phins
Posted 2009-12-20 5:05 PM (#201444 - in reply to #201425)
Subject: Re: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK



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As for trying to unstick an engine with the starter. It may work, but you are taking the chance of destroying the block . The problem in doing it this way is if the engine is really really stuck you take the chance of cracking the casting where the starter mounts as the starter will produce tons of torque. I have seen a person destroy his block this way.

I was in the heavy industrial construction and repair business for over 30 years and Industry practice was always try to rotate the engine or equipment by manual force and only use power as a last resort knowing that you may destroy the equipment you are trying to save. I have seen a 1000 HP electric motor destroyed this way when they bumped it to try and free up a crusher it was attached to. The crusher didn't move but it unscrewed the impeller that was stuck in the casing and when it did it pushed the shaft of the motor back and blew out the back of the motor. I warned them of this but they thought they knew better than me and it was their money not mine. The crew had to take the roof off to be able to replace it.

I plan on trying to turn over my engine with a breaker bar and a pipe extension on the crank. If that doesn't work i will tear it down frozen, though it makes it more difficult. I don't want to take the chance of ruining my engine.
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59CRL
Posted 2009-12-20 5:15 PM (#201445 - in reply to #201444)
Subject: Re: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK



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A couple ways of trying to unstick the engine, but I would be careful and use manual force,
as if you use excessive force you can damage or destroy the engine, it is stuck for a reason,
try a 4 foot bar on a 1/2 drive ratchet on the crank bolt, the bolt wont break.... I freed up a
stuck V-8 this way with PB blast.... if that dosent do it I would disassemble the engine.
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hemidenis
Posted 2009-12-20 5:34 PM (#201449 - in reply to #201249)
Subject: RE: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK



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I loosened my engine but I had a valve not moving and an almost imperceptible knocking in one rod. Eventually the valve loosened up and the engine was running smooth, oil pressure was ok

But I decided to take the engine apart anyway and that was it.
I found that the crank was overturned over .40 in one rod so someone did a custom made bearing for it that ending up been the knocking one.
My friends told me to patch that bearing and drive the car and enjoy it, but I am somebody who likes to do things "properly", so I did disassemble the whole engine when George H. W. Bush was still in office, yes the one before Clinton.

I changed:

Crank for a 10/10 (Original overturned)
New Piston and Moly rings
Set of NOS rods (mines were messed up)
New camshaft and Clevitte 77 rod bearings
New set of Main and rod bearings (Clevitte 77)
New main bolt kit set
New head bolt set
New high volume oil pump
New set of lifters and Chrome molly adjustable pushrods
New Stainless valve set with matching spring; valve lock set and retainer kit
Hardened valves seats and new guides
New Harmonic balancer and NOS pulley
Double roller timing chain set
New cam retainer plate kit set
New oil pump shaft bushing
Brass freeze plug kit
Fel-Pro gasket set
New set of bolts for the outside accessories (originals missing)

But, oil pan (mine is dented and welded), Carburetor, oil filter adapter spark plug cables etc etc still need to be purchased so go and figure if take apart the engine was mistake.....

Edited by hemidenis 2009-12-20 5:35 PM
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jagster
Posted 2010-01-08 12:36 PM (#204312 - in reply to #201249)
Subject: RE: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK


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THANKS TO ALL FOR THEIR INPUT. AFTER THE EXPENSIVE SNAKE OIL CALLED KROIL IN ALL CYLINDERS, KEROSENE IN THE INTAKE WITH A QUART OF TRANNY FLUID, A GOOD, LONG WAIT AND SEVERAL TRIES, SHE IS REALLY STUCK.

WHEN IT GETS WARM AGAIN, I PLAN ON PULLING THE ENGINE AND TEARING IT DOWN. GOOD ADVICE FROM THOSE WHO THINK THE RISK OF DAMAGE IS TOO GREAT TO TRY TO FORCE THINGS.

I HAVE TWO STANDING OFFERS FOR THE ENGINE IF IT IS KEPT IN ONE PIECE OF $2,500, AND MAYBE THAT IS THE WAY TO GO. I SUPPOSE IT WOULD COST THAT MUCH TO REBUILD IT BY THE TIME I BOUGHT ALL THE REPLACEABLES AND HAD THE MACHINE WORK DONE.

OF COURSE, I WOULD PREFER TO TRADE MY WHOLE, COMPLETE, RUSTY CAR FOR JUST A GOOD BODY WITH NO ENGINE OR TRANSMISSION. ANY TAKERS?
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57plymouth
Posted 2010-01-08 10:27 PM (#204419 - in reply to #201249)
Subject: Re: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK



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Look at these pictures of a stuck engine, and let me know if you really want to unstick it. The owner tried all the snake oil remedies to unstick it, and it only caused a bigger mess. Stuck motor always means rebuild. Man up.

Photobucket

Photobucket

Photobucket

Edited by 57plymouth 2010-01-08 10:27 PM
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Handygun
Posted 2010-01-09 1:38 AM (#204435 - in reply to #201249)
Subject: Re: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK


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My 392 was stuck when I bought it, of course the seller overlooked that when describing it, but I made an agreement so I bought it, when I broke it down it had 2 rust holes in the bottom of 2 cylinders, no need for a sonic test it needed sleeving and we put 8 of them in, boring the block .250 over the cylinders looked like swiss cheese, put an inch of block filler in the bottom to hold everything back together, the crank was cracked radially in two spots, wet magged it myself, went thru 3 cranks to find one that could be indexed to print and wasnt broke, the heads were rotted in the combustion chambers on two cylinders so I traded them off for a nice pair of 56 heads of course that meant int man adapters and a custom crossover, I bent one rod driving it out and the rest didnt look too good anyway so I bought a set of K-!'s for it, not much of a choice in stock size pistons either and I didnt want to bore fresh sleeves so I got some new Ross's for it, 9.8:1, then the new small block MoPar pumps..fuel and oil with of course the pre-requisite adapters, studded the heads and ARP'ed the mains, starting to see a trend here it's sounds like KA'CHING havent even got into the trip to rocker arm specialists..Gary does great work btw ,remember adj rkrs take a different valve cover.... If you got someone willing to buy it for 2500...consider it.
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wbower3
Posted 2010-01-09 3:39 PM (#204504 - in reply to #201249)
Subject: Re: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK


Walter passed away on Jul 29, 2014. We will miss you, Walt!

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Like yours, Steve, my 270 was stuck when I got it. Took an 8lb hammer and a piece of 2x4 to get 4 of the pisstons driven out of the block. The other four anly needed a 2 lb hammer. Like John (Big M) said earlierthe aluminum pistons corroded and swelled, this piston rings rusted and broke up, the cylinder walls were rusted on the worst four to the point it had to be bored 0.060 over. I was lucky to find pistons available, otherwise would have had to have them made, or deal with HotHemiHeads or a set (not inexpensive). The crank cleaned up at 0.020/0.020. Rings and bearings were no problem. Kanter's catalogue lists engine rebuild "kits" for these engines.

I'd go ahead and tear it down, find out what's wrong with it and then make a decision. Or, at least pull the pan and the heads. If at that point you can unstick it all your out are the gaskets needed to reassemble it. and a couple of days time.

Uncle Walt

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MOPAR-TO-YA
Posted 2010-01-09 5:43 PM (#204522 - in reply to #201249)
Subject: RE: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK


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I have a 354 hemi that the pistons are so stuck --no amount of snake oil will ever free them up. I cant take the crank out without moving the pistons or cutting rods. The rods look good and this is what the best mechanic i know told me he has done. Used an electric welder (amps??) with a stick (which one??) and melted the aluminum piston away from the pin . Sounds to me like a better alternative to whailing away with a BMFH. If I can get him down here to my shop we will trty this on my block and I will let you all know how it worked..............................MO
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d500neil
Posted 2010-01-09 5:59 PM (#204529 - in reply to #204504)
Subject: Re: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK



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Is the BMFH a FWDLK tool?

Along with the BMFH, a FUBAR may be required.

Your results may vary.






Edited by d500neil 2010-01-09 6:00 PM
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MOPAR-TO-YA
Posted 2010-01-09 6:40 PM (#204536 - in reply to #204529)
Subject: Re: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK


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d500neil - 2010-01-09 4:59 PM

Is the BMFH a FWDLK tool?

Along with the BMFH, a FUBAR may be required.

Your results may vary.




I don't know what a FUBAR is , but a BMFH will work on ANYTHING... If it don't fit-force it................................MO
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DeSotohead
Posted 2010-01-10 12:23 PM (#204609 - in reply to #204529)
Subject: Re: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK



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Neil.....

A BMFH is also known in the UK as a "Birmingham Spanner", for what its worth.......
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phins
Posted 2010-01-10 2:48 PM (#204633 - in reply to #204522)
Subject: RE: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK



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as far as melting the pistons out with a welder ..crank your welder up to the max, switch the lead connections around (if you can't just clamp the rod holder to the block and stick the welding rod into the ground) the best rod is a carbon rod but you can use 6011 or 6013. a 1/4" rod will give more heat then a larger rod. Strike an arc and push the rod in fast, as you don't want the arc to go out. The rod will melt fast and cause loss of the arc which will allow it to cool and leave more metal from the rod.

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wbower3
Posted 2010-01-10 5:29 PM (#204670 - in reply to #201249)
Subject: Re: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK


Walter passed away on Jul 29, 2014. We will miss you, Walt!

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Steve, another alternative might be to putaside the BMFH and the Stinger and get out your gas welder, and put on the cuttin' head. Attack the pistons from the top and get 'em really hot then a quick dose of cold water. It might shrink 'em enouogh that they can then be driven out. Just like arusted nut on a bolt, ya heat 'em up cherry red and then you can get the nut off, as it has broken up the rust. What have got to lose? your gonna pitch the pistons when you do get 'em out.

Uncle Walt
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wbower3
Posted 2010-01-10 5:29 PM (#204671 - in reply to #201249)
Subject: Re: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK


Walter passed away on Jul 29, 2014. We will miss you, Walt!

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Location: Heaven Above (Formerly Oklahoma City,OK)
Steve, another alternative might be to putaside the BMFH and the Stinger and get out your gas welder, and put on the cuttin' head. Attack the pistons from the top and get 'em really hot then a quick dose of cold water. It might shrink 'em enouogh that they can then be driven out. Just like arusted nut on a bolt, ya heat 'em up cherry red and then you can get the nut off, as it has broken up the rust. What have got to lose? your gonna pitch the pistons when you do get 'em out.

Uncle Walt
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BHWINC
Posted 2010-01-10 6:10 PM (#204687 - in reply to #204671)
Subject: Re: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK



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I know this idea will get the love flowing from some of the blowhards here,
BUT,
I was able to get a sized poly free again with less than gallon uf Ultra One. a a few sheets of 300 grit wet or dry paper.
Filled the cylinders, let it set a few hours and polish off the rough spots where the rust had been growing.

Edited by BHWINC 2010-01-10 6:16 PM
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59CRL
Posted 2010-01-10 6:17 PM (#204692 - in reply to #204312)
Subject: RE: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK



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jagster - 2010-01-08 12:36 PM

THANKS TO ALL FOR THEIR INPUT. AFTER THE EXPENSIVE SNAKE OIL CALLED KROIL IN ALL CYLINDERS, KEROSENE IN THE INTAKE WITH A QUART OF TRANNY FLUID, A GOOD, LONG WAIT AND SEVERAL TRIES, SHE IS REALLY STUCK.

WHEN IT GETS WARM AGAIN, I PLAN ON PULLING THE ENGINE AND TEARING IT DOWN. GOOD ADVICE FROM THOSE WHO THINK THE RISK OF DAMAGE IS TOO GREAT TO TRY TO FORCE THINGS.

I HAVE TWO STANDING OFFERS FOR THE ENGINE IF IT IS KEPT IN ONE PIECE OF $2,500, AND MAYBE THAT IS THE WAY TO GO. I SUPPOSE IT WOULD COST THAT MUCH TO REBUILD IT BY THE TIME I BOUGHT ALL THE REPLACEABLES AND HAD THE MACHINE WORK DONE.

OF COURSE, I WOULD PREFER TO TRADE MY WHOLE, COMPLETE, RUSTY CAR FOR JUST A GOOD BODY WITH NO ENGINE OR TRANSMISSION. ANY TAKERS?


Well if you tried all the chemicals and it dosent move at all then start taking the engine apart, rebuild of course. Trading the car for another one is your choice too.....
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MOPAR-TO-YA
Posted 2010-01-11 1:56 AM (#204766 - in reply to #201249)
Subject: RE: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK


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Guys- I and at least one other here is talking about SERIOUS rust and corrosion. The piston has welded itself to the cyl wall. Can't get all the rods away from the crank if the crank can't be moved And also cannot get the crank out for the same reason
Phins, your suggestion is interesting, but why put the electrode oin the ground clamp? Reverse polarity? what does that do?.......................MO
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wizard
Posted 2010-01-11 2:47 AM (#204768 - in reply to #201249)
Subject: Re: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK



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I've heard (never seen or done) about farmers that made a slowburning fire in the cylinder and kept it burning for many hours. Then they adapted a piece of wood (log) to the cylinder diameter, placed the wood against the piston and gave it a hard hit with a sledgehammer. This should (so they say) free the piston rings from the cylider walls just enough for some movement - once that there's some movement, the battle is almost won.

Edited by wizard 2010-01-11 2:52 AM
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finsruskw
Posted 2010-01-11 8:06 AM (#204794 - in reply to #201249)
Subject: Re: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK



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Here's another brainstorm, As I've got this to look forward to someday un-sticking a 392 300-C engine.
Let's try this after the soaking and oiling process. Fit a round piece of 1/2" or so steel plate maybe a 1/4" to 3/8" smaller diameter than the cyl diameter
on top of the piston.

Seems to me a little vibration is called for here rather than brute all at once force. Then take your air chisel with the broad flat round punch to the plate. Probably be a good idea to line the exposed cyl wall with something to protect it from the air hammer at this point, may be a short piece of the correct O.D PVC pipe. If it's too large, slice a section out of it and squeese it till it fits. Then rattle away with the hammer, maybe ading a shot of your favorite penetrant from time to time around the cyl wall. Repeat as neccessary.

Now all I gotta do is try to remember this when I get ready to do mine!!

Dacve Schwandt
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Handygun
Posted 2010-01-11 1:03 PM (#204823 - in reply to #201249)
Subject: Re: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK


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Dave that is how I got mine out, I use a heavy duty pistol grip air hammer with a blunt end 12" set and hit the pistons right in the pin boss, walked a few out, blew the top out of a few, skipped off and knicked the small end of the rod on one, never touched a cylinder wall though, Steve I would try to undo your rod cap, protect the big end from marring crank and airhammer it out ,if you need the tool PM me I aint that far, or come to the columbia swap meet
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phins
Posted 2010-01-11 4:20 PM (#204853 - in reply to #204766)
Subject: RE: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK



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Reversing the polarity increases the penetration of the heat into the object you are trying to melt.

OK try this... reassemble your cylinder head (with all valves and springs installed) with a new head gasket. Torque to specs. Next go to your local hardware or plumbing supply and get a fitting the will screw into your spark plug hole. Get a another fitting the will fit into this to allow you to place a zert (grease) fitting into it. Assemble the plug fitting, adapter and zert fitting together with teflon tape. (hold the teflon tape in your left hand while you turn the fitting and it will go in correctly) Screw this setup into your spark plug hole of the stuck piston. Get a good hand grease gun with a full cartage of grease and fill the cylinder full of grease. Keep filling, checking for leaks and don't stop. This will put a uniform pressure of 600 psi onto the piston as well as lube the rings. hopefully this will push the piston out. Let me know
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Handygun
Posted 2010-01-11 6:41 PM (#204869 - in reply to #201249)
Subject: Re: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK


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cyl taper would prevent this
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phins
Posted 2010-01-11 10:47 PM (#204911 - in reply to #204869)
Subject: Re: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK



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it may, but it may just move enough to be freed up so it can be pushed out from the bottom
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wbower3
Posted 2010-01-12 3:56 PM (#205036 - in reply to #201249)
Subject: Re: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK


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I like your suggestion Gary, but keep in mind that there's a crankshaft tied to the big end of the piston rod....

Uncle Walt
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wizard
Posted 2010-01-13 12:42 AM (#205111 - in reply to #201249)
Subject: Re: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK



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In fact, there's a risk of that the high pressure could crack the piston or cylinder head instead - the crank is freezed due to the other pistons also being stuck....
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phins
Posted 2010-01-13 12:31 PM (#205162 - in reply to #205111)
Subject: Re: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK



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Determine which direction the stuck pistons would be traveling when pressure was applied to the one getting grease filled with , you will be able to do the same with at least one and possibly another cylinder, as the valves would be closed on all cylinders. That way you could increase the pressure slowly and evenly among the additional cylinder(s). This would increase the pressure to move them and reduce the danger of damage. Also remove the main bearings and give them a coat of STP to lower friction but keep them torqued to specs. I would think that with a high level of pressure and some taps with a hammer on a brass bar onto the connecting rods bottom end between the pressure and the shock effect i think you should see some movement. Also if you spray some i have talked with another engineer friend of mine and he suggested using trans fluid as a penetrate, stating that the detergents in it will help free up the rings. Also placing this in before the grease would also force it in deeper than just pouring it in.

I will be going through this also as i have not been able to turn my crank and have decided to disassemble my engine and will be doing everything i can to save my pistons. As a last resort i will even be going as far as cutting my connecting rods as i should be able to get connecting rods a lot easier than pistons.
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oldefar
Posted 2010-01-15 10:45 PM (#205451 - in reply to #201249)
Subject: Re: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK


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Haven't any of you heard about acidic chemicals that "eat" only metal (aluminum, brass, copper, etc.) and NOT steel (steel, iron, cast iron etc.)? Also acidic chemicals "eating" ONLY rust and not metal OR steel. There are several. Most of these products have been on the market for many, many years. And most, if not all are U.S. inventions, products and produsers. We used a lot of these products on our ships from the time I started out as a sailor in 1962. That's where I learned to use these same products for my private use.

One of these products are "Ferro-bet" (registerd trademark) and will "eat" the rust ONLY and not the steel or even the metal. This product was also called "Metal Brightner". It removes rust from steel and any oxidation from metal without danmaging the steel/metal. I have used this product with great success on a lot of things.

Another product is lemon acid, which is used in the food processing industry to remove anything from bacterias to burned food in pans and kettles. I have also used the lemon acid to remove rust on coupe and trunk floors with grat success.

Then we had what we called the "boiler stuff" that we used to remove the soot inside the burning-chamber of the large ship-boilers. This stuff would burn the skin of your hands/face/body, but would still not hurt the steel/metal in the boiler. If you can amagine the temprature inside a big high pressure, high temp steam-boiler and the hardness of the soot here, you will certainly understand how hard this would be to remove. The manufacturer of this product was/is U.S. and the manufacturer's name is GAMLEN. If this company exist today, they will have a lot of interesting products for the automobile hobbyists. Amagine putting your sooted intake and exhoust manifolds in this chemical. I don't know if these chemical are available, or even legal today, but GAMLEN also had a very strong emulsifyer that removed crude oil and any grease/oil deposits. It could even get your old paint off. You sprayed it on, brushed a little, and flushed it or even better, pressuresteamed it off with water. Preferabely with hot water.

Then, here in Norway we have something called (in Norwegian) Kraft Vask. In English: Power Wash. It's made by the Norwegian JOTUN chemical (paint) industri and is actually named Pingo Kraft Vask. This is a very strong chemical (and pretty expensive, approx. U.S. $ 50,oo for one imperial gallon). This I just spray on several kinds of metal including my manesium or aluminum wheels, scrubb a little with a medium stiff paintbrush and then just flush off with water. And the wheels are shiny as brand new. Also remove oil from any car parts.

As mentioned above, none of these chemicals will hurt the metal and/or the steel.

So, my point is: Get the heads off the engine (if they not allready are). Pour like the Ferro-Bet, lemon-acid or Gamlen boiler-stuff into every cylinder on every piston top. Let sit for X nuber of days/weeks. And woops, the rust, corrosion, pulverised aluminum etc. will be "eaten" up.

When you think the above proccess have had it's time, blow the areas clean and dry with a pressure air nipple. Then pour a mix of thinner no. 17 and motor oil into the same areas. Start with a lot more thinner that oil. The thinner will help penetrating the oil into the areas to be stuck, evaporate quickly and leaving the oil left. Continue the procedure with less and less thinner until you think it all is soaked properly with oil.

Next procedure is finding the fireing-order of the engine. Start with the piston CLOSEST to TDC (Top Dead Center) NOT the one on the TDC. Using a woodblock with a size as close to the cylinder diameter as possible, you hammer on it with a 2-3 pound (weight) sledge HAMMER (not a sledge). Then, using the fireingorder, you have to find out which piston is on the way up CLOSEST to the BDC (Bottom Dead Center) NOT the one on the BDC. After knocking DOWN on the closest to TDC piston for a while you knock DOWN on the closest to BDC (the one that is on it's way up) for a while. Then, still following the fireing order, you continue the procedure on the next pair of pistons in the same order. Repeat this procedure until you have movement on ALL pistons. Then you fill it all up with the same thinner/oil mix, let sit for a while, and start knocking on the pistons again. PATIENCE!!!

If you think the crank is stuck to the main/rod bearings also, you can remove the distributor, use an elctric drill with a rod with a flad end fitting into the oilpump drive and run the oilpump. Fill the oilpan/engine to max dipstick level with the above mentioned chemicals and/or thinner/oil and peform the same procedure here. Run the drill every once in a while.

My dad thought me: Never use force on something stuck, because sooner or later it will allways brake.

With PATIENCE, I can garantie you that the above procedure will eventually free your engine. Without danmaging anything but perhaps the pistons. Or even just the rings. GOOD LUCK!

Einar.

Edited by oldefar 2010-01-15 10:46 PM
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big m
Posted 2010-01-16 11:25 AM (#205483 - in reply to #201249)
Subject: Re: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK



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I wonder how well reverse electrolysis would work on an assembled engine, as there are dissimilar metals involved. I've experimented with this on old ag tools and items that looked hopeless, and it worked on them. I'll have to try this sometime, seized engines are commonplace around here.

---John
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1956DeS
Posted 2010-01-16 2:27 PM (#205495 - in reply to #201249)
Subject: Re: Getting an old engine UNSTUCK


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To remove rust stains in a sink, put ketchup on them. What's in ketchup? Vinegar. Will vinegar harm steel? Probably eventually.

I use Liquid Wrench at work a lot and have found it to be a good (effective) product, superior to PB Blaster.

Liquid chlorine bleach will eat up aluminum (pistons, for instance). Downside is it releases poisonous chlorine gas in the process. Not sure if it harms steel (cylinder walls), but it could be determined easily via testing.

A 50% sodium hydroxide solution, while pretty dangerous stuff, will dissolve aluminum while releasing hydrogen gas (explosive). I know it won't harm steel because it is used in boilers. Ammonia will affect aluminum.

I have soaked parts in diesel fuel (flammable) to loosen rust. Works very slowly. It's basically a thin oil product.

Brake fluid will corrode aluminum but won't harm steel (brake lines).

Hydrochloric acid. Attacks aluminum but also maybe steel. Not sure.

Lemon juice is about 5% citric acid. Uses unknown to me.

Here's a good link...
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/wiki/Freeing_a_stuck_engine#Brea...

Seen somewhere: "If a engine will turn or move just a little i use a 50/50 mixture of diesel and ATF. For one that is stuck solid i use brake fluid. You could also put the block in a electrolysis tank."





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