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Location: Montreal, Canada | You probably all have seen this photo of a Montreal, Quebec, Dodge-Desoto dealership before, as it was posted in the "old pictures" thread:
Well, what would be the odds of finding the superb convertible 1959 Dodge Mayfair in the showroom still in existence and in good shape??..
I think it might just be the case, considering the very low number of convertible Dodge Mayfair produced... An expert could chime in here, but if I recall correctly, the convertible "plodges" were actually USA-made Belvederes that were delivered unfinished to the Windsor plant in Canada, and their production figures were very low.
Anyway, it's the exact same model and the colour does look the same too. The recent pictures were taken in Quebec and I hope the car will still be where I found it next summer when I return there! It's got to be a pretty rare car.
Edited by soiouz 2010-02-04 10:40 AM
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | Yep A very rare car, as are most FL Convertibles. As far as we know, there are 11 , 1959 Dodge Convertibles in the US, 11 in Sweden and one in Switzerland--and a new one turned up The White D 500 (Carlos) not sure where He is from but Börje thinks Sweden. There "May be" an all yellow one in France too, alto I haven't seen anything about that car for several years.
Feel free to correct me, if you know anything about the numbers!
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Location: The Mile High City | wow! that sure makes you wonder! I have to stare at the old photograph for quite awhile to see if I can get a hint of that faux spare tire cover on the trunk. Alas, no luck! It is always nice to see a forwardlooking convertible. I would also be interested to see production number for the 1959 Mayfair convertible. |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
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Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | 1959Dodge - 2010-02-04 4:20 AM
Yep A very rare car, as are most FL Convertibles. As far as we know, there are 11 , 1959 Dodge Convertibles in the US, 11 in Sweden and one in Switzerland--and a new one turned up The White D 500 (Carlos) not sure where He is from but Börje thinks Sweden. There "May be" an all yellow one in France too, alto I haven't seen anything about that car for several years.
Feel free to correct me, if you know anything about the numbers!
Gary
Carlo Notaro is indeed from Sweden, he's a well known FL connoisseur over here |
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Location: Upplands Väsby, Sweden | And in Finland you have one Dodge 59 conv (blue/white) |
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Location: Montreal, Canada | Well, I'm pretty sure there's at least one 1959 Dodge Custom Royal convertible here in Quebec.. But those are Custom Royals.
As far as Mayfair convertibles go, I've never seen another 1959, anywhere.
Looking again at the car, in both the old picture and the new ones, I also notice that it has Plymouth hubcaps, probably because of its USA-made Plymouth origin. |
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Location: Victoria, BC, on Vancouver Island, Canada | I've seen a few 59 Canadian Dodges in my time, and they have all had normal Dodge wheel covers, not the Plymouth type. I'm also fairly certain these cars were fully built in Canada, not USA but Bill Watson should chime in here and confirm, or not. The Kingsways built for export were built in the USA though as far as I know but again, Bill can you confirm ? |
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Location: Montreal, Canada | Well, if you look closely at the Modern Motor sales pic, you'll see that the car has Plymouth wheel covers on it. The light reflection that I see couldn't be from a Dodge-style hubcap.
I know the canadian Dodges had Dodge hubcaps as my car has them.
But apparently, not the convertibles.
Bill said in another thread that even the Plymouth convertibles were not built in Canada, but rather imported from the USA, so it would be very doubful that the Mayfair convertibles were Canadian-built..
For instance, in 1958, Canadian Plymouths had different and unique wheel covers... except for the USA-built convertibles that sported the USA-style covers.
These are pics from the Canadian 1958 Plymouth brochure:
Bill mentions this in this thread here:
http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=28001&...
Edited by soiouz 2010-02-04 12:39 PM
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Location: Montreal, Canada | I hope Bill will chime in here and shed some light on these questions.. I wrote him a couple of times about this in the last months, but he did not get back to me.
Also, I read elsewhere that the Mayfair convertibles were sometimes built as Kingsway export models in the USA, and not as Belvederes. That would explain the Kingsway-style badge logo under the "Mayfair" script logo on the tailfin of that red car I photographed. |
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Location: Victoria, BC, on Vancouver Island, Canada | soiouz - you are quite right, I forgot tht all the convertibles for the Canadian market were built in Detroit - hence the Plymouth wheel covers I guess. Though it would have been easy to knock on the Dodge covers, but since these were probably built in the Plymouth assembly line maybe they didn't have any Dodge wheel cover bins sitting around. |
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Location: Montreal, Canada | imopar380 - 2010-02-04 2:49 PM
soiouz - you are quite right, I forgot tht all the convertibles for the Canadian market were built in Detroit - hence the Plymouth wheel covers I guess. Though it would have been easy to knock on the Dodge covers, but since these were probably built in the Plymouth assembly line maybe they didn't have any Dodge wheel cover bins sitting around.
You sure are right too, that it would have been easy to change the wheelcovers... And I guess they sometimes did, if the customer requested so.
Actually, in all fairness, the canadian 1959 Dodge brochure I have here shows the Mayfair convertible with Dodge wheelcovers.... but again, it also shows the Custom Royal convertible with a 1957-1958 style steering wheel!! I guess everything and anything was possible at Chryco at the time! And the original sales litterature is not always a good and reliable source.
But the general rule seem to have been that the convertibles were different than the rest of the cars sold in Canada. And in this case, I'm pretty much convinced that this car came from the factory with the Plymouth wheel covers.
I can't wait to go back to the place where I spotted this car next summer, and see if it's still there. I'll be heading east with our own Dodge and Dad and I will sure want to talk to the owner. We'll see where this leads..
-David
Edited by soiouz 2010-02-04 3:06 PM
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Location: Pau, S-W France | 1959Dodge - 2010-02-04 4:20 AM
There "May be" an all yellow one in France too, alto I haven't seen anything about that car for several years.
No Mayfair in France, the "export" Dodge are badged Kingsway (Custom) .
I don't know convertible but a 2 dr HT and several sedans.
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Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | yea Phil, I meant at one time I had seen a picure of a yellow 59 Dodge Convertible, think it was a custom Royal but could have been a Coronet.
Gary |
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Location: Scotland | It would be an amazing coincidence if this '59 Dodge Mayfair convertible turned out to be actual star car of Modern Motors showroom in '59,that postcard is one of the very best period dealership photos ever,it is so 1950s.If you give Chrysler Historical the cars VIN wouldn't they be able to tell you which dealership this car was delivered to since it was built in Detroit(I know the Canadian records are destroyed). |
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Location: Montreal, Canada | vedette - 2010-02-04 7:11 PM
It would be an amazing coincidence if this '59 Dodge Mayfair convertible turned out to be actual star car of Modern Motors showroom in '59,that postcard is one of the very best period dealership photos ever,it is so 1950s.If you give Chrysler Historical the cars VIN wouldn't they be able to tell you which dealership this car was delivered to since it was built in Detroit(I know the Canadian records are destroyed).
I hope you are right. That is exactly what I was hoping Bill (the expert on Canadian cars) could be able to clarify... because, I'm not sure if these cars were given a Canadian VIN or they had a USA one, since the Mayfair/Kingsway convertibles were imported unfinished. I guess the Belvedere convertibles sold in Canada were really american cars with american VINs as they were imported fully built. But what about the half-built cars?
Of course, if the car has a USA VIN, I could try and get it and verify its provenance.
Just another funny bit of info: the 1959 Dodge brochure I have here is actually from Modern Motor sales. It's stamped on the cover with the dealerships identification and address!
Edited by soiouz 2010-02-04 7:29 PM
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Location: Connecticut | I've been tracking (authentic) 59 Dodge convertibles for almost twenty years. I have about 26 in my registry. There are at least two in Canada: a two tone blue one in Ottawa and a red and white one in Newfoundland. Here in CT, there are two that I know about: a black and yellow one and a blue and white one (mine!). Ron
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Location: Montreal, Canada | ronbo97 - 2010-02-04 8:40 PM
I've been tracking (authentic) 59 Dodge convertibles for almost twenty years. I have about 26 in my registry. There are at least two in Canada: a two tone blue one in Ottawa and a red and white one in Newfoundland. Here in CT, there are two that I know about: a black and yellow one and a blue and white one (mine!). Ron
I guess the ones you are counting in Canada are Custom Royals, right? Have you ever seen another Mayfair convertible? |
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Location: Connecticut | Yes, just Custom Royals and Coronets (some of which have been converted to CRLs). Never seen a Mayfair convertible. Too bad you didn't get more photos of the red one. Ron
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | I'm wondering if the red vert's 'toilet seat' might have been added on, after the car was built.
It doesn't seem to fit onto the deck lid real well, and its 'wheelcover' really doesn't fit/attach to the toilet seat, at all.
Any opinions on it being not OEM???
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Location: Montreal, Canada | d500neil - 2010-02-04 9:34 PM
I'm wondering if the red vert's 'toilet seat' might have been added on, after the car was built.
It doesn't seem to fit onto the deck lid real well, and its 'wheelcover' really doesn't fit/attach to the toilet seat, at all.
Any opinions on it being not OEM???
I noticed that too, and as far as I know, these things could be bought and installed at the dealership in Canada, so I wouldn't be surprised if it were not factory installed per se.
The constrasting colour of the faux-cover is also something I often see on Canadian cars and rarely, if ever, on USA-made units. |
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Location: Scotland | ronbo97 - 2010-02-04 8:40 PM
I've been tracking (authentic) 59 Dodge convertibles for almost twenty years. I have about 26 in my registry. There are at least two in Canada: a two tone blue one in Ottawa and a red and white one in Newfoundland. Here in CT, there are two that I know about: a black and yellow one and a blue and white one (mine!). Ron
There's a two tone blue Custom Royal convertible in the showroom behind the '59 DeSoto convertible,and in the used car showroom a green '58 Firesweep convertible. |
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Location: SWITZERLAND | 1959Dodge - 2010-02-04 4:20 AM Yep A very rare car, as are most FL Convertibles. As far as we know, there are 11 , 1959 Dodge Convertibles in the US, 11 in Sweden and one in Switzerland--and a new one turned up The White D 500 (Carlos) not sure where He is from but Börje thinks Sweden. There "May be" an all yellow one in France too, alto I haven't seen anything about that car for several years. Feel free to correct me, if you know anything about the numbers! Gary Why not start a thread for any makes of rare FLs (mostly Convertibles or low produced models), with pics, and location and owner? - SERGE -
Edited by sermey 2010-02-05 3:28 AM
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Location: Parts Unknown | To my way of looking at these hybrid cars, this is a Plodge, not a Dodge. Perhaps quite unique in its manufacture, but to lump it in as a regular US market is both inaccurate and misleading.
This may sound arrogant or snooty, but I mean it not as some lessening of stature, but as a matter of accuracy in definition. Just like a Firesweep really deserves its own unique status being 75% Dodge in parts and components. Just ask the guy trying to interchange parts and you'll learn all about how unique some of these cars were.
I will acknowledge that the perspective would naturally be different in areas where these odd export configured cars were marketed ... to those, this WOULD be a "Dodge". It leaves me wondering what a regular US market Dodge would be thought of ? .... but I digress.
I have never understood why Mopar made all these mix-n-match cars and do not buy the explanation of cost savings over the huge trouble of design and logistics in not having a simple 4 marque line up, but that is the reality we were handed.
Any idea how many 59 Plodge ragtops were built ? Can't be many. Given the survival rate with eastern winters, this one has to be one of a very few to survive.
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Location: Montreal, Canada | I agree and I wouldn't lump this with the USA cars either. In fact, this is exactly why I wouldn't count it along with the convertible Custom Royals and Coronets. The so-called "plodges" are a unique type of their own.
But, as weird as it may seem from a US perspective, and I totally understand it, not only is this really a Dodge.... it's also a USA-built car to boot! Talk about a confusing situation.
As for why ChryCo did things this way, it is my understanding that the situation in Canada had to do with the Dodge-Desoto network of dealerships wanting to have low-price models to sell to be competitive with the Chrysler-Plymouth dealerships.
In fact, weren't the US Dodge dealers wanting to be able to offer a smaller/cheaper car too in the 1950's for the same reason. That was part of the reason why Chrysler Corp came out with the Dart line in 1960?? I remember reading that somewhere on this board, but correct me if I'm wrong... |
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Location: Victoria, BC, on Vancouver Island, Canada | Doctor DeSoto - 2010-02-05 10:00 AM
To my way of looking at these hybrid cars, this is a Plodge, not a Dodge. Perhaps quite unique in its manufacture, but to lump it in as a regular US market is both inaccurate and misleading.
This may sound arrogant or snooty, but I mean it not as some lessening of stature, but as a matter of accuracy in definition. Just like a Firesweep really deserves its own unique status being 75% Dodge in parts and components. Just ask the guy trying to interchange parts and you'll learn all about how unique some of these cars were.
I will acknowledge that the perspective would naturally be different in areas where these odd export configured cars were marketed ... to those, this WOULD be a "Dodge". It leaves me wondering what a regular US market Dodge would be thought of ? .... but I digress.
I have never understood why Mopar made all these mix-n-match cars and do not buy the explanation of cost savings over the huge trouble of design and logistics in not having a simple 4 marque line up, but that is the reality we were handed.
Any idea how many 59 Plodge ragtops were built ? Can't be many. Given the survival rate with eastern winters, this one has to be one of a very few to survive.
Doc, in Canada the "Plodges" were sold in the dealerships right along side Custom Royals. We did not get Coronets, or Royals, just the Custom Royals. As a kid, I always just thought they were basically an upmarket Dodge, something like an extended-deck Electra 225 over say a LeSabre - AND I had NO idea that the "Plodges" were not sold in the USA. When I was a kid a friend of the family had a pink 58 Custom Royal 2 door hardtop - the car always blew me away style wise, compared to anything else from that year Non-Mopar. And my own first car was a 58 Custom Royal as well. Yes they were ALL Dodges to us, but some were "lower class", and some "upper class" types. That is my perspective on it, as a Canadian, but also as a Canadian kid who was also a car nut. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | I agree completely with Ian ; the only reason we might refer to non-US cars as Plodges PlySotos etc, is that the
Chrysler Corporate offices were headquartered in the U.S. , but any car that was assembled (like the knock-downs,
in Belgium) in any other country "are" whatever nameplate it was that happened to be installed onto them.
I speak of Coronets Royals, etc; any other country's cars are Mayfairs, Regents, Excellencies [joke-]; what-ever,
because a Caravelle or a Fargo are their own unique animals.
It gets trickier when we are talking about the differences between cars that have the same names, like Custom Royals
and Polaras, where the interior and engines might be different between two countries' versions, but the bodies and exterior
appearance might be identical (or slightly different).
So, generically, the furrin-stuff might be Plodges, but, I prefer to call them, where applicable, by their proper-names and
give them their due respect.
Edited by d500neil 2010-02-05 4:32 PM
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Location: Upper East Tennessee | Other brands did this too. I'm not sure why they had to...could it have something to do with export laws???
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Location: Parts Unknown | imopar380 - 2010-02-06 10:39 AM Doc, in Canada the "Plodges" were sold in the dealerships right along side Custom Royals. We did not get Coronets, or Royals, just the Custom Royals. As a kid, I always just thought they were basically an upmarket Dodge, something like an extended-deckElectra 225 over say a LeSabre - AND I had NO idea that the "Plodges" were not sold in the USA.When I was a kid a friend of the family had a pink 58 Custom Royal 2 doorhardtop- the car always blew me away style wise, compared to anything else from that year Non-Mopar. And my own first car was a 58 Custom Royal as well. Yes they were ALL Dodges to us, but some were "lower class", andsome "upper class" types. That is my perspective on it, as a Canadian, but also as a Canadiankidwhowas alsoa car nut.
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That is a perfect explanation from a consumer perspective, and I understand it completely.
It is from a business perspective that I am boggled with .... the staggering trouble of concocting ten lines out of five and all the special parts and all the logistical headache of having this stuff here and that stuff there to make it all happen. This must have cost millions to arrange and perform, ... and for what ? Why not just sell regular old Coronets in all markets ?
Being a Yank, those hybrid cars always looked like some boob made it himself in his garage to me. All the makes did it. Goofy Fords, and crazy Pontiacs ... I know what some will say, ... it was just the way it was done at the time. OK, .... whatever. From the US market perspective, they are two different cars glued together !
This car in question humorously combines my two least favorite FL designs .... the 59 Dodge angry clown face, and the forward leaning 59 Plymouth fins to rank as the last FL car I would ever want to own. In fact, I would defect to GM first ! But that said, it is rare as hell and an interesting car all the same. It makes me think of all the other mix-n-match combos the factory did not do. If I had my way, the 58 NY'er would have the 57 bumper/grille and be a "perfect" car .... the 58 DeSoto would wear the 57 side trim and be a much better looking car .... stuff like that.
Getting back to this particular car ... should you prove it is indeed the same car pictured on the dealer floor, what a cool tie-in that would be ! Who else has a picture of their car on the showroom floor !!!!
I would sure like to have a photo like this of my car !!!! Keep us posted on what you find. This is very interesting.  |
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Location: Some Island called Prince Edward | Yes, we had some strange cars up here in Canada before free trade. Pontiac in Canada was also completely different than those in the U.S. Canadian Pontiacs are my other love and I run a website/forum devoted to these cars www.canadianponcho.ca
I own a 69 Pontiac Laurentian which is basically a modified Catalina body on an Impala chassis with Chevrolet drivetrains. My Pontiac has a Chevy 350 however the 427 was optional. They really confuse the U.S Pontiac guys! My "Canadian Poncho"
Todd
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Location: Parts Unknown | Are those wheels stock on that Laurentian ?
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Location: Alberta Canada | that gold 59 in France looks a lot like a 59 Viscount 2 door parts car that I couldn't save during my restoration-I bid on another one a few years ago but missed it although I still have all the trim from the one I had-it was all I could save under the pressure of time.TOO BAD. |
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Location: Victoria, BC, on Vancouver Island, Canada | Bill Watson explained the whole thing quite a while back, with Canada only having about 10% of the population of the USA, the marketplace for cars is a little different. In the prairie provinces and other areas there was much more of a need for lower priced cars than medium or upper medium and high priced. So what to do with the medium priced Dodge ? - well make it lower priced by building it out of a Plymouth. Same with Pontiac/ Chebby. What I have not been able to completely figure out is why F*RD of Canada built Meteors out of F*rds to sell at Mercury dealers, and why they built Monarchs out of Mercurys to sell at F*rd dealers. We actually had more models from F*rd of Canada than the USA did. The city I grew up and and still live in, ( Victoria, BC, on southern Vancouver Island, which is a mild climate, close to major metro areas by ferry ( Vancouver and Seattle ) sold more medium priced and higher cars than the prairie provinces.
OH, and one other thing - the USA production Mopars of the era did this kind of cobbling together as well, think about the 57-58 Firesweeps and 58 Windsors with their Dodge noses bolted on. First time I saw a Firesweep I thought someone had put it together like that.
Edited by imopar380 2010-02-05 10:58 PM
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Location: Munich, Germany | I've been wondering about that before: What makes a rebadged Plymouth cheaper to build than an entry-level Dodge of the same year? They are essentially the same size and have the same technical specs, do they not? |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | The Plymouths did have some less expensive components, than the Dodges, beginning with their size; shorter wheelbase
(that extra metal-material cost adds up, in the 100's-of-thousands produced, and the door handles were cheaper to make
(the 57 Proto-Plys were shown wearing the Dodge type handles, but, the carry-over side-handle was put into production)
and, in '58, all Plymouths, except the convertibles, continued to have the flat non-compound-curved windshields.
But, the fact that many more PLY's were scheduled to be built meant that their unit-costs of production were lower than the
Dodges (and the same factors probably applied in making 'cheaper' Sotos and Chry's on the Dodge assembly lines), so,
CHRY stood to reap more profit by re-badging the PLY's, which were cheaper to build, in quantity, than the Dodges.
The car manufacturers' accountants make a big deal about saving as many pennies per car as possible, as the small unit-
profits add up.
Fart wanted to save some small amount of money/Pinto had decided not to put some small grommet-like thing into their
gas tanks, the lack of which caused them to leak gas & explode during a rear end collision event, and, the Chubster, in
1960, economically decided against installing an inboard U-Joint on the rear engined CurFair, which caused that 'car' to
roll over, when an outboard wheel, on a sharp turn, dug-into the dirt, or pavement.
The second set of U-Joints were installed in the 1964 models, IIRC...
Money talks.
Edited by d500neil 2010-02-06 5:06 PM
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Location: Some Island called Prince Edward | They were optional wheels. Chevy wheels with unique caps. My car didn't have them originally. I added them. They should have a trim ring which I have installed since the photos.
Doctor DeSoto - 2010-02-05 8:09 PM
Are those wheels stock on that Laurentian ?
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Location: Munich, Germany | Ah, so they do have different wheel bases. I was confused because in another thread it was established that the roofs of 57 Plymouth and DeSoto interchange. It's time my Mopar Buyer's Guide arrived! |
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Location: Vancouver, BC | MadEarl - 2010-02-07 12:55 AM
Ah, so they do have different wheel bases. I was confused because in another thread it was established that the roofs of 57 Plymouth and DeSoto interchange. It's time my Mopar Buyer's Guide arrived!
Well, three weeks after the harddrive on my two-year old HP computer (Vista) decided it wanted to take a permanent vacation and my back up computer decided it would join its partner, I'm back. (The warranty on the HP unit expired beginning of January)
To begin with, Canada during the 1930's was clobbered by the depression and the continent-wide drought far harder than the U.S. Thus the market for the lower medium priced cars (Dodge, Pontiac, Studebaker Commander, etc.) shrunk to miniscule numbers. In 1929 the Chrysler of Canada line-up was Plymouth, DeSoto, Dodge Brothers, and Chrysler, bottom to top. For 1929 production, by make, was P-8,755, S-6,093, D-3,804, and C-6,318 for a total of 24,970. By 1932 the figures were P-3,309, S-1,146, D-1,243, and C-1,139 for a total of 6,837.
Plymouth had been sold by Chrysler dealers right from the beginning and, as in the U.S., in 1930 all Dodge and DeSoto dealers also sold Plymouths. But sales collapsed so rapidly by the time the 1931 models were introduced all Chryco dealers sold Plymouth and Dodge with some selling DeSoto and/or Chrysler.
For 1933, Dodge and DeSoto switched places, even to the point the 1933 DeSotos were built at the Jefferson plant in Detroit unlike the 1929-32 models which were built at the same plant at the Plymouth. And in Canada, Chrysler of Canada split their dealers into two groups - Chrysler-Plymouth and Dodge-DeSoto. In an attempt to increase Dodge sales, a stripped version of the DP Six was introduced - the DQ. Every writer has claimed the DQ was based on the Plymouth. And every writer has been wrong. If you check the parts books you find virtually every part of the DQ was shared with the DP and none with any Plymouth model. When the DP moved up to a 115" wheelbase in mid-year, the DQ remained on the 111¼" wheelbase.
The first "Plodge", by the way, was built at the Lynch Road plant in Detroit - a 4-cylinder PB with a Dodge front end - the DM. It was never built in Canada and the DM was never sold in North America.
Chrysler of Canada replaced the DQ for 1934 with the DT - a Plymouth with a Dodge front clip. The beginning of the "Plodge" we all know. For 1935 the "Plodge" was model DV, again a Plymouth with a Dodge front clip and instrument panel. From 1934 to 1938 the Dodge body was 3" longer than the Plymouth - all in the rear floor area. Thus the Plymouth and Dodge front clips were interchangable. This changed with the 1939 models, and it would not be until 1953 that the "Plodge" used a Dodge nose. Instead, the "Plodge" used revised Plymouth front fenders and a unique grille.
The first American-built "Plodge" appeared for 1935 but was sold only in export markets, such as Hawaii. From 1936 through 1941 the Canadian "Plodge" used two model numbers, as did Plymouth, while the American "Plodge" used only one model number. Thus, in 1939, the Canadian "Plodge" came as Six (D12 - based on the Roadking P7) and the DeLuxe Six (D13 - based on the DeLuxe P8). The U.S. "Plodge" came only as a D12, but was available in all the models offered in the P7, including the 4-door convertible.
This is getting too long, but briefly Chrysler of Canada built no convertibles from 1937 through 1962, instead importing them. However, as the 1939 "Plodge" convertible models built in the U.S. were offered in the lower-priced D12 series, they were not sold in Canada. The first imported "Plodge" convertible, by the way, was the 1954 Mayfair. Which is bade news for the fellow trying to sell a 1953 Mayfair on eBay a couple of years ago.
Dodge started using the Kingsway name on the export "Plodge" in 1949, although many also use it on 1946-48 models. And Chrysler of Canada did built export "Plodges" in Canada, except for 1955.
The 1959 Dodge Mayfair convertible would have been built at the Lynch Road plant in Detroit and exported to Windsor complete, including Dodge wheel covers. Again, I must say again, NEVER assume what you see on a car today was installed at the factory 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, etc. years ago. Actually, not even last month.
For 1959, the Dodge Kingsway was built in Detroit for export in all models offered by Plymouth, plus Mayfair convertibles and 3-seat Custom Suburban models for Canada. The Canadian plant built Kingsway DeLuxe 4-door sedans for export, as well as Diplomat DeLuxe and Belvedere sedans.
The big Dodge, as sold in the U.S., was built in Canada right through to and including 1960, although only the top line model. With the exception of 1941 when both series were sold in Canada, in 1954 when the lower priced Coronet models were imported, and a couple of other exceptions.
Finally, the 1957-58 Firesweep and 1958-59 Windsor did NOT use the Dodge sedan roofline. Dodge shared its sedan, and hardtop, rooflines with Plymouth. The Firesweep/Windsor models used the larger DeSoto/Chrysler body, rooflines and all. The front doors on the F/W models were shared with Dodge (Plymouth would also fit) while the rear doors were unique to F/W. The F/W sedan doors had the upper window surrounds stamped as part of the main door sheetmetal while the other DeSoto/Chrysler models had separate upper window surrounds. And that marks the difference between the F/W models compared to it bigger brothers.
Wheelbases?
Plymouth and its Dodge/DeSoto variations - 118" (except wagons which were 122")
Dodge, 1957-59 Firesweep, 1957-59 Windsor, Plymouth-based wagons - 122"
other DeSoto / Chrysler models - 126"
The Plymouth body was extended 4" in the rear seat area to get the 122" wheelbase. Plymouth and Dodge shared rooflines. DeSoto and Chrysler shared rooflines. All wagons shared the same body.
The 126" wheelbase DeSoto and Chrysler models had their front clips extended 4". And that longer 4" nose was used on the wagon body as well.
Should also point out that the Canadian 1957 and 1958 Windsor was actually a Saratoga with Windsor nameplates and engines. Chrysler of Canada never built the big Dodge, DeSoto or Chrysler wagons in Canada, and thus the any Canadian buying a 1958 Windsor wagon got the same model as in the U.S.
Make sense?
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Expert
Posts: 1819
Location: Vancouver, BC |
A couple of notes on Chrysler of Canada's competition -
From 1931 through 1936 Canadian auto tariffs were set up with a flat rate on all parts, less a credit for the amount of Canadian content in the final product. Thus a car manufacturer could import engines, frames, and body from the U.S., assemble and paint the units in Canada (credit), use Canadian-made interiors (credit), glass (credit), fenders and other stampings (credit), wheels (credit), brakes (credit), electrical parts (credit), rubber parts and tires (credit). It was so attractive, Hupp reopened its Canadian plant, and Canadian plants began producing Hudsons, Packards, Reos, Grahams, Cadillacs, LaSalles, and even Pierce-Arrows. Plus 197 1936 Lincoln-Zephyrs.
The new Liberal government of William Lyon MacKenzie King in 1936 eliminated all the credits and Graham, Hupp, Reo, Cadillac, Studebaker and LaSalle production came to an end, followed by Packard in 1939 and Hudson in 1941.
This also affected Chrysler and GM. No more Canadian-built convertibles for one. Plus all eight cylinder Pontiacs and Oldsmobiles were imported as well as all big Buicks. For Chrysler it meant no more Canadian-built eight-cylinder Chryslers.
For 1937 the Canadian Pontiac DeLuxe Six used the same body as the U.S. Pontiac, but with a 224-cid version of the Chevy six. For 1938 a Chevrolet-based Pontiac was added to the line-up. Now Pontiac's offerings matched Dodge in Canada. In 1941 the Canadian Pontiacs (Fleetleader) used the Pontiac flathead six mated to Chevrolet's torque tube drive. Powerglide was added to the option list in 1951.
Prior to WW II, Ford had one dealership network, Ford-Mercury. The larger dealers also sold Lincolns. After the war Ford moved to expand its coverage of the market and began by separating Ford and Mercury. The Americans got Ford dealers and Lincoln-Mercury dealers.
Ford of Canada did the same, but realized its Mercury dealers, as did Canadian Dodge and Pontiac dealers, needed a lower priced line. Thus they took a Ford, added a Mercury grille, side trim and taillamps - and got the Mercury 114, available as DeLuxe or Super DeLuxe. The U.S.-style Mercury became the Mercury 118. To balance it all out, Ford dealers got the Monarch, a Mercury with a different grille, Ford-like side trim and Ford taillamps. And Canadian Ford dealers became Ford-Monarch dealers. Mercury dealers got the Mercury truck as well, just as Canadian Chrysler-Plymouth dealers got the Fargo truck in 1936.
The new 1949 Ford had a body unique from the Mercury, and thus the Mercury 114 was renamed Meteor. The Monarch was replaced by the Edsel for 1958, but sales were so poor the Monarch came back for 1959. In 1960 Mercury-Meteor models got a version of the Falcon called the Frontenac, which was replaced by the Comet for 1961.
1961 was also the year Ford began shrinking it big models. The Mercury and Monarch became big Fords and then the Monarch was dropped for 1962. The 1962-63 Meteor was Mercury's version of the Fairlane, but reappeard in 1964 using the Mercury body with a Ford interior.
The collapse of the full-size car market in Canada in the 1970's coupled with the U.S.-Canada auto trade agreement in 1965, marked the end of the unique Dodge, Pontiac and Meteor models.
The Canadian 1962-71 Acadian (based on the Chevy II) was introduced to give Canadian Pontiac dealers a compact to sell. GM of Canada could not afford to tool the Tempest and sell it at a profit. Thus the Acadian. And the Beaumont in 1964 was a Chevelle with Pontiac-like trim. Both the Acadian and Beaumont sold at lower prices, comparatively speaking, than the Tempest models.
The unique models offered in Canada during the 1970's, 1980's and 1990's were attempts to give each company's dual dealer networks equality in the market. The collapse of Plymouth, Oldsmobile, and Mercury changed everything. All Chrysler of Canada dealers became Chrysler-Dodge-Jeep, Ford of Canada dealers became Ford-Lincoln, while Chevrolet hunk to two networks - Chevrolet and Pontiac-Buick. The death of Pontiac and the near collapse of GM changed that, too.
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Expert
Posts: 3480
Location: Montreal, Canada | Thank you, Bill!! Absolutely fascinating read!
What about the production figures of those Mayfair convertibles (1957-1959)? Is there any way to find out how many were made? |
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Regular
Posts: 72
Location: Munich, Germany | Bill, thanks for these long and fact-filled posts. I've in the meantime received the "Illustrated Mopar Buyer's Guide" and "Car and Driver on Mopar 1956-1967", but these books are only good if you are interested in performance 2-dr hardtops. My Dodge sedan isn't even mentioned in either. If it weren't for places like this forum and people like you, the history of the bread-and-butter models would be next to impossible to come by these days. |
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Location: The Mile High City | Ahhhh! We missed you and your computer, Bill. Do you know the production numbers for this '59 Dodge Mayfair convertible?
Edited by Lancer Mike 2010-02-16 7:04 PM
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Member
Posts: 6
| I heard the rumour 25 years ago about a 59 CR convertible that was seen and purchased by an Australian dealer whilst in a cab on the way to LAX, I believe it was parked in an apartment complex.
I think this car has been in Australia ever since!
I'm pretty sure Gary and Ernie in Colton knew about it! |
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Veteran
Posts: 112
Location: Brisbane Australia | I believe Kim Kader brought it in. Was a red one and supposedly a genuine d500. I think it now resides in Arrarat in Victoria and is currently being restored.
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | No kidding, could Kim Kader contact us currently, regarding his car?
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Veteran
Posts: 112
Location: Brisbane Australia | I think the guy who owns it now is called Tony Shea. I am not 100% sure on this but. I don't know if he frequents this site. cheers Terry |
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Expert
Posts: 3480
Location: Montreal, Canada | I'm reviving this old thread because I have some new information on this, regarding the original subject of this thread.
I was able to purchase an original post card of the Modern Motor sales showroom and so I can zoom as I want on the details of the picture. Just as I thought, the red Mayfair convertible does have 1959 Plymouth hubcaps on it, right on the showroom floor of the dealership, which pretty much confirms that it was sold that way.
Also, a couple of weeks ago, I was finally able to get in touch with the current owner of the red Mayfair convertible pictured in the first post above and he was able to confirm that the car was ordered in 1959 in a local garage in his town of eastern Quebec to a dealership in Montreal (he couldn't confirm which one, but it could very well be Modern Motor sales - he'll get back to me with a confirmation later).
The car was delivered to the original owner who kept the car untill 1982, when he gave the car away to the current owner. The Mayfair had never been restored, but only had a repaint once (the faux-spare tire cover on the trunk was indeed red when the car was new).
The car is now undergoing restoration for the first time and should be cruising the roads again next summer. I'll update the thread when I get more info / pictures.
Edited by soiouz 2010-09-02 12:55 PM
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | You can see a red "faux"-spare tire carrier on this car, too---it's probably the same car that David references;
nice to see a survivor, back when it was new.
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Location: Parts Unknown | TerryM - 2010-02-23 1:24 AM
I believe Kim Kader brought it in. Was a red one and supposedly a genuine d500. I think it now resides in Arrarat in Victoria and is currently being restored.
I believe Kim Kader brought it in. Was a red one and supposedly a genuine d500. I think it now resides in Arrarat in Victoria and is currently being restored.
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The "electric hood" option was to keep thieves from getting under there and stealing the air cleaners, right ?
The "fast glass" is leaving one or more of the side windows rolled up so as to embarrass the owner when the top
is down.
Whoever owns this car now had better get that leak fixed, pronto ! Raw turquoise like that is an environmental hazard ! 
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New User
Posts: 1
| I had a car almost the same as the one in the picture gold colour trim that went on to the fin, also had a 361, 4barrel carb with dual points, 302 hp |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | The "electric hood" refers to a power convertible top mechanism.
No clue what "fast glass" means; the compound curved windshield?
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Could it be the same car?... (1959 Dodge convertible)
