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Location: Scottsdale, AZ | I was at Checker Auto Parts the other day looking for some ZDDPlus for my motor. The guy there showed me this stuff that is supposed to replace the old zinc additives and give better protection for flat tappet cams. He let me borrow a bottle to bring home so I could ask you guys what you thought. I'll probably end up buying regular ZDDP stuff, but I was curious if anyone has heard of this and what their opinion is. High Performance "hy-per lube" Zinc Replacement Additive Says: Exclusive Polymer Ester formula will provide up to TWICE the EP wear protection as high content ZDDP motor oils and is safe for use in all engines even those with catalytic converters. Provides superior wear protection even with oil containing reduced ZDDP levels. Maintains a strong oil film at high temperatures Reduces cold start wear after long periods of shut down Compatible with all oils including synthetic oils Does not contain Zinc or Phosphorous Environmentally safe, contains no heavy metals, and will not harm emission conrols or catalytic converters Of course the product label will always tout big benefits to using their product, but has anyone looked into this kind of chemical additive versus a Zinc additive? Jay
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Board Moderator
Posts: 3186
 
Location: The not-so-great, dirty-white North ( Michigan) | Sounds like something to ask about on the API website.
Or (maybe) Consumer's Reports....
I would stick with ZDDP additive, which we ALL know will work, and since we don't have catalyst, "no harm, no foul" |
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Expert
Posts: 3575
Location: Netherlands | Just buy the right oil and you won't have to do deal with addiditives.
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Location: The not-so-great, dirty-white North ( Michigan) | BigBlockMopar - 2010-03-29 12:28 PM
Just buy the right oil and you won't have to do deal with addiditives.
Herman......
I wish it were that simple here in the USA. We have had the zinc legislated out of our oils by our EPA.
Bureaucrats really do NOT care for older cars, and if the oils tear up our engines, then that is fine with them!
As a result, the ZDDP in our oils is now so low (to protect catalysts and O2 sensors) as to be almost non-existent.
Therefore, if you have an "older" engine with a flat-tappet camshaft, you need an additive to prevent the wear/galling of the lifter/lobe interface. It probably also adversely affects the ring/cylinder bore interface as well.
This is why we are always talking about ZDDP additives for our oils.
Of course, the zinc necessary to foul out O2 sensors and catalysts would probably mean your engine was blowing blue smoke out the back(which would OIL-FOUL both O2 sensors and catalysts), but that little fact doesn't stand in the way of regulators..... |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 774
Location: Atlanta GA USA | Saw this in an article dated '07:
"There used to be 1,400-1,500 zinc ppm in [passenger-car] motor oils, about where [Shell] Rotella [diesel-truck] oil is now. "
Read it here:
http://www.hotrod.com/pitstop/hrdp_0702_pitstop_zinc_oil_additive/i... |
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Expert
Posts: 3575
Location: Netherlands | Hank,
I'm aware of that. Same goes in Europe, although it's not hard to still find 'good' oil with enough zinc in it.
Bill,
Dates are very important with articles like that. The composition of oil changes with every API-change.
Therefore the API-list you posted in another thread is the most important to go by when you're buying oil for your old flattapper engines.
In effect it says; always try to find an "API SL" (or lower) rated oil.
While the newer oil 'might' run fine in older engines, it should never/not be used when breaking in a rebuilt flattappet motor.
If the valvesprings in your motor are anything stronger than stock, better not use the API SM-rated oils either.
API ratings:
API P (ppm)...........Zn (ppm)
---------------------------------
SE-SJ... 1301 ..............1280
CI-4 ..... 1150 ..............1374
SL............ 994................1182
CJ-4 ..... 819 ...............1014
SM ......... 770 .................939 |
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Expert
Posts: 1730
Location: Michigan | Is it safe to use Mobil 1 in a 55 Chrysler without additives? Previous owner did this and I switched back to 20 wieght oil made for engines prior to 62 (if i recall the label correctly). Since then at start up I get a tappet noise that comes and goes while the engine is warming up. I don't recall it happening when I brought the car home before the oil change. It has had me wondering ...
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Expert
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| Beltran - 2010-03-30 8:35 PM
Is it safe to use Mobil 1 in a 55 Chrysler without additives? Previous owner did this and I switched back to 20 wieght oil made for engines prior to 62 (if i recall the label correctly). Since then at start up I get a tappet noise that comes and goes while the engine is warming up. I don't recall it happening when I brought the car home before the oil change. It has had me wondering ...
20 weight seems pretty thin to me... the tappet noise is probably from the thin oil. I would use 40 weight in your case. I use Shell Rotella 15W40.
STP also makes a zinc -zddp- additive in a little blue bottle, for protection on the older engines. Better safe than sorry. |
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Expert
Posts: 3400
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | Cold weather starts with 20w can cause some slow lifter pump up in an old engine.. I use 10/30 in my 55 NY'er, the engine has 1,500 miles on it but has the original lifters, I get some noise for about 15 seconds. As the weather gets hot 40 is ok for an un rebuilt engine, 30 may be a better compromise, but everyone has varied opinions on this. |
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Expert
Posts: 3575
Location: Netherlands | The number of people who drive these kinda cars daily is very small so I always recommend to base your oil-weight on a hot motor, as most drive them when the weather is nice.
With old motors, you really don't want to know (well, you do actually) how low the oilpressure gets when everything is upto temp and the oil is thinner.
I'm also a believer in putting a highvolume oilpump on/in wellworn (bigblock) engines usually. |
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Account deactivated by owner's request
Location: On this barrel | Hi Jay, Check this out: http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief12%20-%20ZDDP%20and%20Engine%20Break-in.pdf Also, from the Valvoline site they claim their VR1 Racing Oil has ~1300 ppm Zinc and ~1200 ppm phosphorus, but suggest it has less detergent. From another site I found the Accel API SF sold at walmart has a decent amount of zinc (1103 ppm) but very little phosphorus (only 207 ppm). When my engine was rebuilt I was given Valvoline non-detergent SAE30 and a bottle of Crane Cams break-in lube from the rebuilder. |
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Location: N.W. Fla. | 56royaldodge - 2010-04-01 5:26 PM
Hi Jay, Check this out: http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief12%20-%20ZDDP%20and%20Engine%20Break-in.pdf Also, from the Valvoline site they claim their VR1 Racing Oil has ~1300 ppm Zinc and ~1200 ppm phosphorus, but suggest it has less detergent. From another site I found the Accel API SF sold at walmart has a decent amount of zinc (1103 ppm) but very little phosphorus (only 207 ppm). When my engine was rebuilt I was given Valvoline non-detergent SAE30 and a bottle of Crane Cams break-in lube from the rebuilder. |
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Expert
Posts: 1812
Location: Slidell La. | As Greg mentioned above , STP oil Treatment is all you need , and its a cheaper price than buying a glorified zinc additive . |
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Location: The not-so-great, dirty-white North ( Michigan) | Mopar1 - 2010-04-01 9:31 PM
56royaldodge - 2010-04-01 5:26 PM
Hi Jay, Check this out: http://www.zddplus.com/TechBrief12%20-%20ZDDP%20and%20Engine%20Break-in.pdf Also, from the Valvoline site they claim their VR1 Racing Oil has ~1300 ppm Zinc and ~1200 ppm phosphorus, but suggest it has less detergent. From another site I found the Accel API SF sold at walmart has a decent amount of zinc (1103 ppm) but very little phosphorus (only 207 ppm). When my engine was rebuilt I was given Valvoline non-detergent SAE30 and a bottle of Crane Cams break-in lube from the rebuilder. Haven't seen any comments on how nessesary phosphorus is vs ZDDP. Keep in mind that REAL racing oil's additive package is designed to last less than 1500 miles, or so it has been said.
The phosphorus is in the form of phosphates, which as we know from laundry detergents, are a detergent!
So having a lot of phosphate in oiul is simply a cleansing agent.
The zinc is the important part, even if some of it is in the form of zinc phosphate.
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Expert
Posts: 1590
Location: Scottsdale, AZ | Back 30 years ago when my Dad was rebuilding motors in the shop, they always used a "NON-detergent oil for the break-in period, usually 500 miles. They said it was needed so the rings would seat properly on the initial start-up. Are we saying that's not true anymore?
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | I agree with jay's recollection, and a detergent oil (IIRC) is not supposed to be good for an already
clean/overhauled engine, it is to be used on old/dirty engines (again, IIRC).
Also, nowhere in the above cited literature is there any claims made that an oil lacking in ZDDP can be bad for
a 'flat-tappet' already broken in engine, that I can find; sure, for breaking in (wearing-in) a newly built engine: sure....
But, please show me an un-biased (non-infomercial) testing company's report on the comparative effects of using
a modern engine oil, versus that SAME oil which has had zinc/Phosphate be added to it, in a good condition,
broken-in flat tappet engine.
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Location: On this barrel | I've done some reading up on all this, and .... For Neils question .. is it bad to to run a modern ZDDP reduced oil on an older broken in engine? The answer I've read on other sites, who have posted the answers they have received from big AND small (aka redline, etc) oil companies state the minimum zinc content in modern oil is enough to staify the requirements for older broken-in flat tappet engines, the 600-900 ppm zinc of SM'ish of modern oil. What I haven't seen is "we are going to take the same engine ... rebuild it and break it in exactly the same. Afterward one is going to run ZDDP added to castrol GTX 10w-30 for 2000 hours, the other the same oil without the additive. Then we are going to inspect and compare the tappet and cam surfaces for wear, plus do a trace mineral study of the oil". But you know Zinc and phosphorus is good for an older engine ... so what do you have to loose by spening an extra $10?? For Jay's question - read that PDF link I posted. Apperantly them detergent molecules fight with the zinc over space in the sealing surface .. hence the non-detergent oil. Plus a detergent oil is going to break down the cam lube quicker, isn't it??
Edited by 56royaldodge 2010-04-05 9:00 PM
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Account deactivated by owner's request
Location: On this barrel | From another site I found the Accel API SF sold at walmart has a decent amount of zinc (1103 ppm) but very little phosphorus (only 207 ppm).
I got this response from Warren Distributtion regarding the "Accel 10w-40 oil SF for model years 1988 and earlier" sold at walmart:
Phosphorous, ppm 1000
Zinc, ppm 1103
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | I happened to be talking to my local engine rebuilder-shop, today, and he said, categorically, that we-all
should be using DIESEL -grade engine oil in our cars, or an additive, or at least an oil with the API rating of
"SL", or better, but NOT "SM", as Herman posted up-above here.
So, I'm going to be buying some Diesel 10/40 this week.
He also said that my 1996 Jeep GCherokee, with the 4.0L 6-banger, should get the ZDDP stuff, too.
So, EYE'M a true-believer, now, too.
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 5139
Location: cornpatch county, Southwest IOA | d500neil - 2010-04-19 7:13 PM
I happened to be talking to my local engine rebuilder-shop, today, and he said, categorically, that we-all
should be using DIESEL -grade engine oil in our cars, or an additive, or at least an oil with the API rating of
"SL", or better, but NOT "SM", as Herman posted up-above here.
So, I'm going to be buying some Diesel 10/40 this week.
He also said that my 1996 Jeep GCherokee, with the 4.0L 6-banger, should get the ZDDP stuff, too.
So, EYE'M a true-believer, now, too.
Your mechanic is not keeping up. At first it had enough ZddP but it has now been re-formulated and does not have enough. Also there are reasons not to use Deisel oil in auto engines.........................MO
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Location: N.W. Fla. | d500neil - 2010-04-19 7:13 PM
I happened to be talking to my local engine rebuilder-shop, today, and he said, categorically, that we-all
should be using DIESEL -grade engine oil in our cars, or an additive, or at least an oil with the API rating of
"SL", or better, but NOT "SM", as Herman posted up-above here.
So, I'm going to be buying some Diesel 10/40 this week.
He also said that my 1996 Jeep GCherokee, with the 4.0L 6-banger, should get the ZDDP stuff, too.
So, EYE'M a true-believer, now, too.
The '96 is/should be a roller cam engine & doesn't need the ZDDP. The CJ oil still has it, just nat as much as before. |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | STEVE; you're saying that diesel oil does not have enough ZDDP in it, now?
Good to know that the 96 4.0L doesn't need the ZDDP, due to its roller cam installation.
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Expert 5K+
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Location: cornpatch county, Southwest IOA | d500neil - 2010-04-20 1:52 PM
STEVE; you're saying that diesel oil does not have enough ZDDP in it, now?
Good to know that the 96 4.0L doesn't need the ZDDP, due to its roller cam installation.
Yes Neil. When you digest all the latest information about oils- that is the comclusion.........................MO |
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Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | So, Valvoline 20/50 racing-oil has enough ZDDP in it, or, go buy some ZDDP additive to add to 'your' 10/40
oil, huh?
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Posts: 2679
| MOPAR-TO-YA - 2010-04-20 1:47 AM
d500neil - 2010-04-19 7:13 PM
I happened to be talking to my local engine rebuilder-shop, today, and he said, categorically, that we-all
should be using DIESEL -grade engine oil in our cars, or an additive, or at least an oil with the API rating of
"SL", or better, but NOT "SM", as Herman posted up-above here.
So, I'm going to be buying some Diesel 10/40 this week.
He also said that my 1996 Jeep GCherokee, with the 4.0L 6-banger, should get the ZDDP stuff, too.
So, EYE'M a true-believer, now, too.
Your mechanic is not keeping up. At first it had enough ZddP but it has now been re-formulated and does not have enough. Also there are reasons not to use Deisel oil in auto engines.........................MO
I use Deisel oil, Shell Rotella and it is a better oil than the others out there.... check this out....
The additive packages for C (commercial) certification are designed to promote engine life. The additive packages for C rated oils contain extra buffers and detergents to keep the engine clean and free of acids. C rated oils are far better than S oils at holding and dispersing combustion byproducts and other contaminants, and at not becoming acidic. You can read more about it here... interesting....
http://www.calsci.com/motorcycleinfo/Oils1.html
I just started using SHell Rotella with my new engine because of the higher zinc content. But to each his own.... I will stick to this stuff.
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Expert
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Location: Scottsdale, AZ | Not trying to rain on anyone's parade, but I would want more info than from an engineer's (and not even a mechanical engineer) less than a week of online research before trusting my brand new engine to their recommendations. It does seem there are others here that use the Diesel oil trick, though, so there is that in its favor and I would trust their recommendations first. Though, right now I'm going to stick with a non-detergent oil with zinc additive for my break-in period, after that, I'm not sure, but I'm leaning towards Valvoline with zinc additive as my father used it for years and years with no problems. I've still got a couple more folks to talk with, but that's where I'm leaning. Just can't get past the diesel thing, sorry, just can't see putting diesel oil in my gas engine. Its like butter vs margarine, its all in each guys taste. :-)
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Expert 5K+
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Location: cornpatch county, Southwest IOA | You folks using deiesel type oils or racing type oils need to do some research. There are drawbacks to using these oils in a daily driver. Shell Rotella has recently reduced their amount of ZDDP You need to determine the PPM of Zddp for your specific engine and find out the PPM of it in the oil you want to use.. Zddp primary function is holding up to stiff metal to metal scrubbing such as lifters and cam lobes. Especially with higher than stock lift cams and increased valve spring tensions. Not so much of a problem with roller cams. Do the reasearch- find out what ZDDP really is. It's your engine , not mine! I wouldn't put a lot of faith in what the oil rating on the can is How many PPM of Zddp can be determined by one or two letters- those one or two letters tell you EVERYTHING for all oil specifications?...................................................MO |
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Location: N.W. Fla. | My understanding is "C" is "Compression & "S" is "Spark", IE Diesel & Gas. I suspect that 100s of millions of brand new engines starting in the 60s have detergent oil in them from the get go. Used to be you needed to break in engines before putting synthetic in, but now some GM Crate engines con with synthetic in them. |
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Location: N.W. Fla. | MOPAR-TO-YA - 2010-04-22 12:36 AM
You folks using deiesel type oils or racing type oils need to do some research. There are drawbacks to using these oils in a daily driver. Shell Rotella has recently reduced their amount of ZDDP You need to determine the PPM of Zddp for your specific engine and find out the PPM of it in the oil you want to use.. Zddp primary function is holding up to stiff metal to metal scrubbing such as lifters and cam lobes. Especially with higher than stock lift cams and increased valve spring tensions. Not so much of a problem with roller cams. Do the reasearch- find out what ZDDP really is. It's your engine , not mine! I wouldn't put a lot of faith in what the oil rating on the can is How many PPM of Zddp can be determined by one or two letters- those one or two letters tell you EVERYTHING for all oil specifications?...................................................MO The old CI diesel had more ZDDP in it than the current CJ oil. Now then...ZDDP is not needed with roller cams, little friction with them. The '84 & '85 Mustang engines were the same except for the '85 having the roller that gave it 5% more HP from reduced friction, & less heat generated. The current SM has no ZDDP but supposedly has other things to protect as well as previous oil. What is known is some high performance engine builders building Chevys lost cams quickly a while back, big cams running high spring pressures. Hot Rod Mag. said most seemed to be from a specific unnamed company, could be just a bad batch of cams. There have been allegations of junk Chinese lifters being sold here under various brands being involved with this problem. Might end up like the "need" to use lead replacement in gas to save your valves from unleaded gas. I'm sticking with a combo of diesel oil & the Accel 10W-40 SF grade oil frol Wal-Mart. |
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Expert
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Location: Scottsdale, AZ | That ZDDPlus website doesn't really recommend diesel oil for a few reasons, of course they're trying to sell ZDDPlus also so maybe that is their reason. I think I will stick with a ZDDP additive and regular Valvoline after the break-in period. I am going to use a ZDDP additive and non-detergent oil or maybe Royal Purple's break-in oil for the break-in period. The non-detergent was what we used to use for break-ins and I don't see why one wouldn't use it now, unless someone can tell me why.
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Location: cornpatch county, Southwest IOA | jsrail - 2010-04-24 8:23 PM
That ZDDPlus website doesn't really recommend diesel oil for a few reasons, of course they're trying to sell ZDDPlus also so maybe that is their reason. I think I will stick with a ZDDP additive and regular Valvoline after the break-in period. I am going to use a ZDDP additive and non-detergent oil or maybe Royal Purple's break-in oil for the break-in period. The non-detergent was what we used to use for break-ins and I don't see why one wouldn't use it now, unless someone can tell me why.
Good call Jay. use a lighter straight weight non detergent oil with your ZDDPlus for the break in...............................MO |
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Zinc Replacement Additive, Ever Heard of It?
