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Electric fuel pump
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tuffshift
Posted 2010-04-01 10:26 PM (#216695)
Subject: Electric fuel pump


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Sometimes all of a sudden the electric fuel pump on my 57 Belvedere will begin "hammering" really loud...I mean, it sounds like a woodpecker on steroids underneath the car.........this goes on for a minute or so, then as suddenly as it started, it quits.

It's still operating, but no longer making that racket.  Are these electrics pumps supposed to act like that, or is this noise a warning to me that something bad is about to happen?

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wbower3
Posted 2010-04-01 11:12 PM (#216705 - in reply to #216695)
Subject: Re: Electric fuel pump


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Sounds like it's sucking air periodically. I'd suggest checking the connections from the tank forward to the pump. If there's a fuel filter between the tank and the pump, I'd suggest changing it also. If there's not a filter between the tank and the pump. I'd sure put one there.

Uncle Walt
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Fanbladeus
Posted 2010-04-01 11:18 PM (#216707 - in reply to #216695)
Subject: Re: Electric fuel pump



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I can tell you that my electric fuel pump would do that and it didn't last long. After going through a second pump, I changed over to a mechanical set up.
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Beltran
Posted 2010-04-01 11:47 PM (#216716 - in reply to #216695)
Subject: Re: Electric fuel pump



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Mine does that after the car has sat for a month. Once the gas gets up to the pump from the tank it will stop. Pump is at the base of the radiator. I agree with Walt. Sounds like your occasionally sucking air. Check those connects and look for leaks after you drive around for a bit and then stop the engine. A weak line will get the area only wet with gasoline, you may not see drips. The line may not leak too noticably but under suction from the pump it will allow air through.

Another way is to look for air bubbles in your glass bowl filter if you have one. That is another tell tale sign of air being sucked into your fuel line.
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Beltran
Posted 2010-04-01 11:49 PM (#216717 - in reply to #216695)
Subject: Re: Electric fuel pump



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PS. I am moving my pump back to my gas tank area this year. Just to avoid this issue.....
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tuffshift
Posted 2010-04-02 12:35 AM (#216723 - in reply to #216717)
Subject: Re: Electric fuel pump


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Beltran - 2010-04-01 10:49 PM PS. I am moving my pump back to my gas tank area this year. Just to avoid this issue.....

 

The pump is already back by the gas tank....and I don't find any kind of fuel filter anywhere in the line from the pump to the carburetor. 

Is there/was there an issue with the mechanical style pumps, that caused the PO to decide to go with an electric pump?  The motor is a 1970 big block. 

It certainly wouldn't be difficult in going back to mechanical, if that is the general consensus here.  I've had the car now for a couple months and this racket has just started recently.  I am also smelling gas lately (but finding no obvious leaks) from around the fuel tank.......could be related to the noisey pump.

 

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Handygun
Posted 2010-04-02 11:57 AM (#216773 - in reply to #216695)
Subject: Re: Electric fuel pump


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I don't know what your engine build is Karl but all the OE's ran mech pumps all the way up to 600hp crossram Hemi's, so they will support 99% of FL's out there....Im running one and expect no issue's.
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pachristine241
Posted 2010-04-02 1:53 PM (#216784 - in reply to #216723)
Subject: Re: Electric fuel pump



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longrammopar - 2010-04-02 12:35 AM

Beltran - 2010-04-01 10:49 PM PS. I am moving my pump back to my gas tank area this year. Just to avoid this issue.....

 

The pump is already back by the gas tank....and I don't find any kind of fuel filter anywhere in the line from the pump to the carburetor. 

Is there/was there an issue with the mechanical style pumps, that caused the PO to decide to go with an electric pump?  The motor is a 1970 big block. 

It certainly wouldn't be difficult in going back to mechanical, if that is the general consensus here.  I've had the car now for a couple months and this racket has just started recently.  I am also smelling gas lately (but finding no obvious leaks) from around the fuel tank.......could be related to the noisey pump.

 



About 9-10 years ago there was a run of bad metal in the production of the mopar big block mechanical fuel pump push rods (the rod that slips up in the block & connects the pump with the cam)....because of this, the rods wore down & the pumps lost pressure or pumping ability. 1st thing that was suspected....bad fuel pump. Pump replaced or rod eventually, same problem, so alot of people just went with an electric pump.....this could possibly be what happened with your car.
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Beltran
Posted 2010-04-02 4:40 PM (#216799 - in reply to #216695)
Subject: Re: Electric fuel pump



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I was told that the mechanicals were phased out as part of the effort to eliminate vapor lock. Car is in traffic, gets real hot, gas starts vaporizing in the line. Mechanical pump at the front of the vehicle does not have enough flow while engine is idling to move vapor bubbles building up in the line. Engine starves and stalls.

Electric pump at the rear of the vehicle is always pushing the fuel up to the carburator (opposed to pulling it). Vapor lock, in the gas line, stopped being an issue.

I like the fact that I turn on the ignition, know when gas is getting to the carb and then hit the starter. Engine starts right away. Easier on the battery and starter. (6v system)
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tuffshift
Posted 2010-04-02 5:15 PM (#216810 - in reply to #216799)
Subject: Re: Electric fuel pump


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Beltran - 2010-04-02 3:40 PM I was told that the mechanicals were phased out as part of the effort to eliminate vapor lock. Car is in traffic, gets real hot, gas starts vaporizing in the line. Mechanical pump at the front of the vehicle does not have enough flow while engine is idling to move vapor bubbles building up in the line. Engine starves and stalls. Electric pump at the rear of the vehicle is always pushing the fuel up to the carburator (opposed to pulling it). Vapor lock, in the gas line, stopped being an issue. I like the fact that I turn on the ignition, know when gas is getting to the carb and then hit the starter. Engine starts right away. Easier on the battery and starter. (6v system)

That certainly makes sense, as does the previous comment about the string of bad pumps 10yrs ago.....this one has been on there at least 7 yrs that I know of.  Maybe it's just getting time for it to die anyway and it's not any problem with the lines, or drawing air, etc.

How long is the expected lifetime of an electric fuel pump anyway?

Along with the noisy pump, the car is developing a gas fume problem back by the tank......and is becoming increasingly more difficult to start.  There's so much I still have to do to this Belvedere to get it up and running dependably.  The spark plugs look really nasty and rusted on the outside......and the distributer still has the breaker point setup too, which may need attention.  I haven't worked on something like this for at least 100yrs (or so it seems)

Thanks for all the input so far...it really is appreciated.



Edited by longrammopar 2010-04-02 5:17 PM
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MOPAR-TO-YA
Posted 2010-04-02 8:33 PM (#216840 - in reply to #216695)
Subject: RE: Electric fuel pump


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I am thinking you got a open in the fuel line or pickup that is allowing air to enter under vacume. That is probably also the source of your gas smell..........................MO
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Fanbladeus
Posted 2010-04-02 8:37 PM (#216841 - in reply to #216695)
Subject: Re: Electric fuel pump



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If you smell gas, I would try to fix that before messing with the pump. You may be sucking air where the line meets the tank. I know I had that problem for a while. Last time I had my sending unit out, I sealed it up good and double clamped the hose to it (so they were facing opposite directions). It stopped leaking there after that.

Long term, I would go for a mechanical pump. I went through two electric pumps in 8 years. My mechanical one has been going strong ever since. Oh and my car fires right up. No problem with that.
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tuffshift
Posted 2010-04-03 4:34 PM (#216917 - in reply to #216840)
Subject: RE: Electric fuel pump


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MOPAR-TO-YA - 2010-04-02 7:33 PM I am thinking you got a open in the fuel line or pickup that is allowing air to enter under vacume. That is probably also the source of your gas smell..........................MO

Yep!  Both you and Fanbladeus hit that nail smack dab on its head. 

Ya gotta be right under there when it happens to see the problem.....which I was at the time and actually caught it in action.

Seems that when the motor is "goosed" as in hard acceleration for example, the additional "suction" caused a slight collapsing of the inlet hose right at the fitting.  This is when it began sucking air and clattering.  As the vacuum let up, the hose relaxed and in the moment of unequal pressure, a small droplet of fuel appeared at that pinhole leak, then evaporated almost immediately.

Good thing I checked it too, as that piece of hose was totally shot and would most likely have completely failed out on the road when I least expected it.  Now I figure I had better inspect and replace all the flexible fuel lines, just in case.

Thanks so much for all your help and saving me some additional grief.

 

 
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MOPAR-TO-YA
Posted 2010-04-04 1:33 AM (#216996 - in reply to #216695)
Subject: RE: Electric fuel pump


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Thank you Karl for letting us know our efforts did some good. Many times we never know when there is a correct diagnosis.
BTW us hillbillys are making plans for The Des Moines GOODGUYS. Several of us will caravan and I hope our "secret" parking spot will not be taken ...............................MO
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jagster
Posted 2010-04-04 12:35 PM (#217036 - in reply to #216695)
Subject: Re: Electric fuel pump


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Hey guys, it is very common to see folks put an electric pump in line, and up front to help feed the engine, but it is common knowledge that pumps work best at the back of the car, right outside the tank and push the fuel forward. Check out any car with original electric pump; it will be back there. Yes, junk in the tank will mess up an electric pump in a hurry, so a filter before the pump is a good idea, and buy the biggest one that will fit. Same goes for a good filter before the gas gets to the carb. A nice 'see-through' filter is a good idea. Electric pumps get real loud when they are starving for fuel, a sure sign that the tank has lots of junk in it. You just can't let a car sit for months with old gas in the tank. Nuff said.
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sermey
Posted 2010-04-04 4:39 PM (#217072 - in reply to #217036)
Subject: Re: Electric fuel pump


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jagster - 2010-04-04 6:35 PM . . . . but it is common knowledge that pumps work best at the back of the car, right outside the tank and push the fuel forward. .

What the fuel pump cares, if it pumps from rear or from front?  The pump load is the same. But at a fuel line leak, with the pump in the rear, in time you will loose all your fuel, in the front you may get some additional air but no fuel loss at all! I don't see any differences in physical basics. - SERGE -

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Beltran
Posted 2010-04-04 11:34 PM (#217147 - in reply to #216695)
Subject: Re: Electric fuel pump



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Serge,
Repeat from above.
I was told that the mechanicals were phased out as part of the effort to eliminate vapor lock. Car is in traffic, gets real hot, gas starts vaporizing in the line. Mechanical pump at the front of the vehicle does not have enough flow while engine is idling to move vapor bubbles building up in the line. Engine starves and stalls.

Electric pump at the rear of the vehicle is always pushing the fuel up to the carburator (opposed to pulling it). Vapor lock, in the gas line, stopped being an issue.
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njlimbaugh
Posted 2010-04-05 10:17 PM (#217285 - in reply to #216695)
Subject: Re: Electric fuel pump


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If nothing else, electric pumps are cheap insurance. First one I installed was as an addition to the stock pump on an old Ford flathead pickup, notorious for vapor lock. I mounted the pump directly under the tank (gravity feed) with an on/off switch. In the summer, if it vapor-locked, I could switch the pump on and feed the carb. When the truck had been sitting for a while, it was easier on the battery to pump gas up to the carb before hitting the starter. And, naturally, if the stock pump goes south, you've still got the electric.
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sermey
Posted 2010-04-06 1:27 PM (#217345 - in reply to #217147)
Subject: Re: Electric fuel pump


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I think, any fuel pump reduces efficiency, when comes vapor in. Near the gas tank, vapor cannot be an issue because of the long fuel line. This has nothing to do if pushing or pulling. Then, the mechanic fuel pump is directly bolt on the engine and get its high temperature. Due to vapor (has multiple volume than fuel), an additional reverse pressure is built in the fuel line, causing the fuel to be partly pushed back. A reverse blocking valve could prevent this. In my dual fuel pump setup, where the electric and mechanic pumps are in parallel, every pump has its own reverse blocking valve. This impede as well the fuel to flow back to the tank when the car is not running.

What do you think in putting such a valve between the mechanical pump and the carburator? - SERGE -



Edited by sermey 2010-04-06 1:30 PM
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njlimbaugh
Posted 2010-04-06 1:41 PM (#217346 - in reply to #216695)
Subject: Re: Electric fuel pump


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Fuel pumps in good condition won't allow reverse flow. This holds true with multiple pumps in the circuit whether in series or parallel.
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NewportBob
Posted 2010-04-07 11:55 AM (#217509 - in reply to #216695)
Subject: Re: Electric fuel pump



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A question: if you install an electric fuel pump as a supplement to your mechanical pump in order to reduce cranking time (as Beltran suggested above), could you/should you turn off the pump once the engine fires?
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pachristine241
Posted 2010-04-07 1:51 PM (#217516 - in reply to #216810)
Subject: Re: Electric fuel pump



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longrammopar - 2010-04-02 5:15 PM

Beltran - 2010-04-02 3:40 PM I was told that the mechanicals were phased out as part of the effort to eliminate vapor lock. Car is in traffic, gets real hot, gas starts vaporizing in the line. Mechanical pump at the front of the vehicle does not have enough flow while engine is idling to move vapor bubbles building up in the line. Engine starves and stalls. Electric pump at the rear of the vehicle is always pushing the fuel up to the carburator (opposed to pulling it). Vapor lock, in the gas line, stopped being an issue. I like the fact that I turn on the ignition, know when gas is getting to the carb and then hit the starter. Engine starts right away. Easier on the battery and starter. (6v system)

That certainly makes sense, as does the previous comment about the string of bad pumps 10yrs ago.....this one has been on there at least 7 yrs that I know of.  Maybe it's just getting time for it to die anyway and it's not any problem with the lines, or drawing air, etc.

How long is the expected lifetime of an electric fuel pump anyway?

Along with the noisy pump, the car is developing a gas fume problem back by the tank......and is becoming increasingly more difficult to start.  There's so much I still have to do to this Belvedere to get it up and running dependably.  The spark plugs look really nasty and rusted on the outside......and the distributer still has the breaker point setup too, which may need attention.  I haven't worked on something like this for at least 100yrs (or so it seems)

Thanks for all the input so far...it really is appreciated.



A bad run of the rods, not the pump itself. The part I was referring to was the steel dowel rod shaped push-rod that must be pushed up in the block before you put the pump in. It connects the pump arm to the cam lobe.
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njlimbaugh
Posted 2010-04-07 10:23 PM (#217609 - in reply to #216695)
Subject: Re: Electric fuel pump


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Bob, I just let the pump run until the carb float bowl is full, then shut off the pump and hit the starter. You should be able to hear the pump running; when the bowl is full, the pump should stop. You may have to experiment. On some engines, it's possible for the pump to overpower the float valve, so if your pump doesn't stop, you need to switch it off before you flood things.
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NewportBob
Posted 2010-04-08 11:09 AM (#217651 - in reply to #216695)
Subject: Re: Electric fuel pump



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Makes sense. Right now the pump is in my basement, so some work has to be done. But I was hoping/assuming that this is how it would work.

Bob
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59CRL
Posted 2010-04-09 7:12 AM (#217788 - in reply to #216695)
Subject: RE: Electric fuel pump



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longrammopar - 2010-04-01 10:26 PM

Sometimes all of a sudden the electric fuel pump on my 57 Belvedere will begin "hammering" really loud...I mean, it sounds like a woodpecker on steroids underneath the car.........this goes on for a minute or so, then as suddenly as it started, it quits.

It's still operating, but no longer making that racket.  Are these electrics pumps supposed to act like that, or is this noise a warning to me that something bad is about to happen?



Good thread. A friend of min just got his engine running with an electrical pup and told me it sounded like someone was smacking his engine with a hammer... I will tell him to male sure it isnt sucking air. Good stuff.
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mikes2nd
Posted 2016-10-31 11:34 PM (#524954 - in reply to #216695)
Subject: Re: Electric fuel pump


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https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/fuel_pumps_regulators_and_filters/fuel_pumps/carbureted_fuel_pumps/carbureted_electric_fuel_pumps/part
ted_fuel_pumps/carbureted_electric_fuel_pumps/parts/12-427

 

blast
from the past, I will be switching my hemi over to an electric pump, these are self priming, and self regulating for 47$ and quiet.



Edited by mikes2nd 2016-10-31 11:56 PM
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