|
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 508
Location: Orlando | Hey everybody,
Believe it or not, I have been a member of this list/forum in it's various incarnations since 1999, when I bought my Dodge. At the time I bought it in Georgia, it had been sitting for 10 years and the previous owner, who was supposedly the original owner, had died. His daughter, who had inherited the car was selling it.
I went through all the usual stuff, and 2 weeks later proceeded to drive it to Wyoming where I had a job as a Park Ranger in Grand Teton National Park. I made it, but not without a few problems. but when you are driving a car such as this, everybody wants to stop and help 
Driving the car back to Florida, I thing I blew a head gasket. It lost a lot of power. But I still made it back. It has been parked ever since.
I am NOW ready to start restoration! And I plan on documenting it here. It's going to be fairly quick (I hope to have it painted by early spring), and I am going to have to do it on the cheap. I, like many people, am not making the money I used to be making. That will have to factor in how the restoration goes. But since I will doing almost everything myself (including painting) I will save a bunch of money that way.
This will NOT be a concourse restoration. I can't afford it. And I want to make a few improvements/modifications. It will be sort of a resto/mod, or whatever they call it. But it will mostly resto, and any mods will be the type that you don't really see. Disk brakes, for example.
The car as I bought has the original paint and interior, but in very poor condition. I will be keeping the original colors, but they won't be exactly original. I am not going to go and pay an arm and a leg for vinyl with the original grain pattern, for instance. You can forget my going out of my way to try and duplicate the factory overspray patterns, too But this car will be very much in the spirit of (if not perfectly) how it left the factory.
Anyway, some pictures for your enjoyment 
See next post.
Edited by ThomasD500 2010-10-25 8:34 PM
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3480
   
Location: Montreal, Canada | I fixed the pics for you, hope you don't mind!
ThomasD500 - 2010-10-25 7:45 PM
First, the car about 5 years ago in Georgia:
Front clip removed:
This caulking was in the recess below the rear window:
Has the typical rust in that area:
Rear bumper kinda rough along the bottom. It had a hitch mounted to it, so they bent the bottom of the bumper out and drilled a hole in it for the hitch 
Gas tank removed:
Door gap is perfect...when it's on jack stands!
Rusty area:
Seats removed...lots of nesting material:
Stuff I found under the rear seat. Later, I also found an OLD Sears credit card (no magnetic strip ) not pictured:
Sagging headliner:
Very nasty, but original interior:
'Paint OK' stamp:
Engine stamp:
Chalk marks:
I power-washed the floor, and they turned from brown to RED!
Some rust, but not too bad:
The trunk has a few rust holes, but is still solid enough that I can stand up and walk around in there with almost no flexing:
This is the car's 'bad side'. Looks like somebody rubbed against a tree. I have a panel I bought on EBAY (carparts4you ) for this, but the panel is made with a very thin gauge metal. I also have a door, and I need a front-right fender. They are all damaged pretty badly:
 |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 508
Location: Orlando | soiouz - 2010-10-25 8:21 PM
I fixed the pics for you, hope you don't mind!
Thanks! |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 508
Location: Orlando | Also, while I have it stripped down, if anybody has any requests for photos of particular parts/angles/areas of the car, let me know. It is very original, and in just good enough shape that you can still make out some details like overspray patterns
In all seriousness, it is interesting to see how they masked this thing off at the factory for the two-tone paint job. They obviously painted it red first, then masked it and painted the white areas. |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2244
Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | That's gonna be a "Beauty" when you are done. Like you, I dont lose any sleep about "Overspray". She's got a Hemi, that's great.
Power windows too, shaaazzzammmmmmm. Does she have the torqueflite?
I'm sure what ever colors you pick it will look great, my 59 Vert is "Flame Red"----Not a "Stock" 59 Dodge color but I get a lotta
compliments on it, and people yelling at me --all the time--when I driving it---"Man's that's one Gorgeous Car" , no one has asked me
to show them the "underspray"
Anyway enjoys it and I look forward to see the progress----as the car evolves!!
Jon, who post here as JMC Performance, is also building his 57 Dodge, alto He will be jealous of the Hemi, the hardtop and those power windows.
Gary
Edited by 1959Dodge 2010-10-25 8:55 PM
|
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 508
Location: Orlando | 1959Dodge - 2010-10-25 8:52 PM
That's gonna be a "Beauty" when you are done. Like you, I dont lose any sleep about "Overspray". She's got a Hemi, that's great.
Power windows too, shaaazzzammmmmmm. Does she have the torqueflite?
I'm sure what ever colors you pick it will look great, my 59 Vert is "Flame Red"----Not a "Stock" 59 Dodge color but I get a lotta
compliments on it, and people yelling at me --all the time--when I driving it---"Man's that's one Gorgeous Car" , no one has asked me
to show them the "underspray"
Anyway enjoys it and I look forward to see the progress----as the car evolves!!
Gary
I'm going to keep it red and white. The red i'm going to use will be the same red you see on the boat below.
I'd never painted anything with an actual spray gun before I painted this boat. It was practice for the Dodge. I think I did pretty good. The boat looked like it had been crumpled up and straightened out...that's just how some of them came from the factory...very wavy. So I got lots of practice with my block-sanding and painting skills. now I am ready to do the Dodge!
BEFORE Look how wavy it is:
AFTER:
 |
|
| |
|
Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Your engine is fairly late-year production, probably June-ish, and the P/T plate confirms its D500 status, but the P/T
plate shows 5607 (???) as the scheduled build date--it might have been meant to have been stamped "0607", for June 7,
1957, but, that first "5" on it is a mystery!
Whether you restore, or resto-rod it, you've got a big project ahead of you, Tom.
The car is coded for having a radio in it, but somebody installed the antenna on the driver's fender, instead of on the
passenger's side fender.
Good luck, on 'her' !
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 4054
Location: Connecticut | Sweet car ! D500 + Power Windows. Wow !
Had the quarter been resprayed at some point ? There seems to be two shades of red between the door and the quarter on the passenger side. On the passenger quarter, the upper crease can likely be repaired with some hammer and dolly work. The lower crease near the rocker may be repairable by heat shrinking, but I'd be tempted to section out that area, dolly it out, and then reweld it in. How good are you at welding ? Ron
|
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 508
Location: Orlando | ronbo97 - 2010-10-25 9:55 PM
Sweet car ! D500 + Power Windows. Wow !
Had the quarter been resprayed at some point ? There seems to be two shades of red between the door and the quarter on the passenger side. On the passenger quarter, the upper crease can likely be repaired with some hammer and dolly work. The lower crease near the rocker may be repairable by heat shrinking, but I'd be tempted to section out that area, dolly it out, and then reweld it in. How good are you at welding ? Ron
Yes, I think somebody hit it with a rattle can in that area. It looks like somebody tried to fix the damage to the door, but didn't even attempt the quarter panel.
I can weld ok...not great, but ok. I just do alternating spot-weld method and it works for me. I'm going to try and fix the damage before I replace any sheet metal. |
|
| |
|
Location: Parts Unknown | Power windows are my favorite option. Gotta love power winders !!!!
|
|
| |
|
Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Forgot to mention, above here, that your car has OEM undercoating, so that you wouldn't have to worry about
restoring the overspray on the undercarriage, because the undercoating completely covered the over-sprayed
floor pans.
The frame rails and chassis components should not have any undercoating material on them, as it/they were
assembled separately from the car body.
Good luck, on your project!
|
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 508
Location: Orlando | d500neil - 2010-10-27 4:43 PM
Forgot to mention, above here, that your car has OEM undercoating, so that you wouldn't have to worry about
restoring the overspray on the undercarriage, because the undercoating completely covered the over-sprayed
floor pans.
The frame rails and chassis components should not have any undercoating material on them, as it/they were
assembled separately from the car body.
Good luck, on your project!
My car has the undercoating. But I am not sure if it is all factory or not. It is on EVERYTHING. the frame rails, the rear axle, front suspension...you name it. It may be a combination of factory and after-market. At least it did it's part in conserving the car. It's not rust free under there...but it's better than a lot of other cars I've seen. A few small patches and it will be good to go
Anyway, I think I will leave the undercoating in place on the pans, except for what I need to patch, of course. I will then recover everything in another coat. But I will scrape it off all the frame rails and repaint them black.
Question: What gloss was the frame and suspension painted from the factory? Gloss, semi-gloss or satin? I am considering going with gloss regardless, for the looks, but I haven't made up my mind yet. |
|
| |
|
Location: Parts Unknown | Ah Neil, ... now you've gone and kicked the proverbial hornet's nest again with the overspray
comment ! 
Frame and chassis, inner fenders, radiator support, valances, etc. that were black used what was
known as "P & A Black" (parts and accessories black). It has a semi-glossy finish. When was doing
more work like this, it was readily available by name at any auto paint store.
|
|
| |
|
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1060
Location: Building incorrect cars since 2000!! | Doctor DeSoto - 2010-10-28 2:01 AM
Ah Neil, ... now you've gone and kicked the proverbial hornet's nest again with the overspray
comment !
Frame and chassis, inner fenders, radiator support, valances, etc. that were black used what was
known as "P & A Black" (parts and accessories black ). It has a semi-glossy finish. When was doing
more work like this, it was readily available by name at any auto paint store.
Not Neil ..Really
I used Eastwoods products "chassis black" it is a good paint just use there primer as well for the best results. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 508
Location: Orlando | 60 Plymouth - 2010-10-28 7:08 AM
Doctor DeSoto - 2010-10-28 2:01 AM
Ah Neil, ... now you've gone and kicked the proverbial hornet's nest again with the overspray
comment !
Frame and chassis, inner fenders, radiator support, valances, etc. that were black used what was
known as "P & A Black" (parts and accessories black ). It has a semi-glossy finish. When was doing
more work like this, it was readily available by name at any auto paint store.
Not Neil ..Really
I used Eastwoods products "chassis black" it is a good paint just use there primer as well for the best results.
I was thinking of using their paint. They advertise their 'gloss black' as being about 80% gloss. Sounds good to me. Glossy, but not overdoing it They also have an 'under-hood black', but I think it is the same thing with a different label.
OR I might just go to Home Depot and get their 'porch floor' paint ($22 a gallon.) It's a oil based 1 part polyurethane and I've used it before. Tough as nails. They can tint it any color. I wouldn't expect a very high gloss out of it, but then that's not what I want anyway...just a moderate gloss. |
|
| |
|
Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | The frame rails were a sort of alkyd (oil-based) gloss black, but certainly not any modern day mega-gloss finish.
For a durable finish, if I had a facility close by, I'd have the entire chassis be powder coated, but a gloss finish will
be fine; it will discolor over time, but can be touched up with rattle can gloss black, as necessary.
Again, factory undercoated cars have a significant restoration advantage over the non-undercoated cars' floor
pan finishing.
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2679
| d500neil - 2010-10-27 4:43 PM
Forgot to mention, above here, that your car has OEM undercoating, so that you wouldn't have to worry about
restoring the overspray on the undercarriage, because the undercoating completely covered the over-sprayed
floor pans.
The frame rails and chassis components should not have any undercoating material on them, as it/they were
assembled separately from the car body.
Good luck, on your project!
Undercoating huh.... I wonder if the 59's got the undercoating too, I will have to crawl under mine to see.... |
|
| |
|
Location: Parts Unknown | d500neil - 2010-10-29 6:03 PM
For a durable finish, if I had a facility close by, I'd have the entire chassis be powder coated, but a gloss finish will
be fine; it will discolor over time, but can be touched up with rattle can gloss black, as necessary.
***********************************************
I have had so many powder coated railings fail and require replacement that I would never consider this a
durable option for something like a car where rock chips and other road abuses would be put upon the finish.
The jones about powder coating is that it is impossible to patch or touch up and removal of the stuff is a daunting
proposition. It isn't as tough as many think and once nicked and rust starts, it is worse than paint for creeping
crust. Since taking it off requires sandblasting in order to redo it, good Lord! .... where is the advantage ????
I will stick with simple original type paint.
Edited by Doctor DeSoto 2010-10-29 5:47 AM
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 4054
Location: Connecticut | I did the frame on both my 58 Plymouth and 59 Dodge this way: First, I had it sandblasted. Right afterward, I painted it with a rust sealer like POR15 or Bill Hirsh Miracle Paint. You can just brush it on and it'll level out like it was sprayed. Then once it begins to tack up, like 4 - 6 hours later, I sprayed it with rattle-can black, like Rustoleum. Since the rust sealer is still tacky and not fully dried, the top coat will 'bake in' to the sealer. Both frames are in excellent shape ten years later with no signs of rust. And that's here is damp New England. Ron
|
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 508
Location: Orlando | My plan is to go with '21st century technology' (as I've heard it referred to ) and use a 2-part epoxy primer. That, from everything I've read, is the best stuff for adhesion and sealing out moisture. I know guys in the boating world (who have to deal with ultimate damp situations) say that stuff works better than even the old, toxic zinc chromate primers that you can hardly even buy anymore (I DO have a can of that stuff, though...not sure what I'll end up using it on.)
Then, with the epoxy protecting the frame, it won't matter so much what goes over it...it will be purely for aesthetics. But getting something that is a reasonable cost and easy to touch up will probably be my priority. I even considered Rustoleum Gloss Black, because it is ubiquitous and you can buy it in rattle cans (I would initially paint the frame with a real paint gun) for easy touch up. But I have used it before (I still have most of a gallon if it that I bought to paint my outboard motor) and it is SO soft compared to the polyurethane paint that I have used (which is about the same price for a gallon.) I'm still going back and forth in my mind on that one.
Anyway, ANOTHER thing that I have gone back and forth in my mind on is whether to even separate the body from the frame. My car has pretty darn good door/window gaps from the factory. I'm afraid of twisitng something out of shape if I remove the body. Also, I don't really have the space (1-car garage and the county will get on me if I leave anything obviously not running outside for too long.) It'll be a pain to work on the frame from underneath the car, but it can be done. I might just have to do it that way. I think the only disadvantage (beside being a pain in the butt to work on) is that you can't access the small area between the frame and the body, to clean/de-rust/paint. But my car is very rust free under there (most of my rust is in the rear window channel, lower rear quarters, and some trunk areas), so I think it'll be ok.
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 2244
Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | Well She's gonna be a driver, for your pleasure, rather than a Trailor queen that you hope to make a lotta money on someday? Either way, you can't lose on a car like that. I drive the heck outta mine, day in day out, and chances are I could still sell it for a lot more than I paid for it and the updates/repairs I have done to it--but as I said, that sorta thing doesn't matter to me, everybody in the city where I live and cities nearby see my car go "Roaring by" all the time, whilst her "red and white Cousin" (a Real CRL D500 Vert) probably hasn't even had her engine started in 5 months or so---much less the wheels actually turning on good ol Terra Firma.
Nice choice of red, will be great to see her "back on the road"!
Gary |
|
| |
|
Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Back in '81, I rented the services of a large(!) forklift which elevated the car so that the entire undercarriage/frame
could be sand blasted. The OEM undercoating, and the floor pans looked awful, but only surface-rusted.
10-15 minute job.
While it was up in the air, I applied rattle can zinc chromate (salt-water-proof) primer to the entire under-area, and then applied
rattle can gloss black to everything....the Z-C was dry by the time I got to the far end of the car.
Shortly thereafter I had commercial undercoating be applied to the floor pans.
I hadn't ever heard that a properly-prepped frame rail system would have its properly-applied powder-coating chip, or wear-off.
Maybe there's a website article/thread somewhere concerning powder coating coming off of a frame rail system?
Gary, Tom's car is a real red/white color combination.
Edited by d500neil 2010-10-29 8:11 PM
|
|
| |
|
Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Tom, as you are beginning the restoration process, you should check out the condition of the OEM rubber body/frame
insulator "donuts"---my car's were still good, then, but a few years ago I had them be replaced with new Gary Goers'
'donuts'.
A good reason to separate (partially, anyway-) the body/frame, now, would be to replace those rubber insulators.
|
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 508
Location: Orlando | 1959Dodge - 2010-10-29 7:31 PM
Well She's gonna be a driver, for your pleasure, rather than a Trailor queen that you hope to make a lotta money on someday? Either way, you can't lose on a car like that. I drive the heck outta mine, day in day out, and chances are I could still sell it for a lot more than I paid for it and the updates/repairs I have done to it--but as I said, that sorta thing doesn't matter to me, everybody in the city where I live and cities nearby see my car go "Roaring by" all the time, whilst her "red and white Cousin" (a Real CRL D500 Vert) probably hasn't even had her engine started in 5 months or so---much less the wheels actually turning on good ol Terra Firma.
Nice choice of red, will be great to see her "back on the road"!
Gary
Yep, she's going to be a driver I might be crazy, but I believe that cars are meant to be driven! but not every day. There are LOTS of informal car shows around here (local McDonalds every Wed., a bigger one at a further McDonalds every Fri, and monthly shows at a couple of nearby towns with literally HUNDREDS of cars every month), and I intend on attending those every so often, and just driving around and having fun No daily commutes, however, and definitely NO Walmart parking lots (I think car accumulate more door dings there than all other places combined)!!!!
And i forget to mention earlier that it does have the 3-speed torqueflight. I get the impression that all hemis came with that. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 508
Location: Orlando | d500neil - 2010-10-29 8:18 PM
Tom, as you are beginning the restoration process, you should check out the condition of the OEM rubber body/frame
insulator "donuts"---my car's were still good, then, but a few years ago I had them be replaced with new Gary Goers'
'donuts'.
A good reason to separate (partially, anyway-) the body/frame, now, would be to replace those rubber insulators.
Yes, I will check those. I am truly amazed at how GOOD of a shape much of the existing rubber is. The front and rear glass rubber is very nice and fresh. A few rubber gaskets I found (like behind the tail lights) are totally re-usable, too. The weather-stripping around the side windows is shot, however.
Once I have the motor out, it will be light enough that I think I can jack it WAY up on the jack stands and do a reasonable job underneath. I hove a power washer with a sand-blasting attachment (shoots out sand with the water) that I hope will be effective enough. |
|
| |
|
Location: Parts Unknown | Neil,
I refer to railings, as in staircase and patio type railings that I have had built and powder
coated for jobs I have done. The design will call for a specific color and so they get powder
coated as the "end-all, beat-all" answer. Then they peel, and to fix them requires either
pulling them, sandblasting back to bare metal and starting all over again, OR just making
them new and junking the failed units. The percentage of these failing is far higher than
anyone expected and all I am saying as it relates to frame painting is that it is not a fail
safe armor coating like so many think it is, and once failed, is exponentially harder to miti-
-gate than simple paint.
It peels off like a heavy plastic coating and cannot be patched or feathered in. It is an
"all or nothing" fix. Given the road exposures that cars are exposed to, I would advocate
a more repair friendly material and advise that powder coating ain't all it's claimed to be !
|
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 508
Location: Orlando | I pulled the dash this weekend and got the motor out today. Almost completely stripped down now.
Notice the color on the motor in the last pic (actually this color is on the bell housing and I noticed it on the motor mounts, too. I haven't scraped enough grease/sludge off the motor to tell if any is on there yet.) It is sort of a metallic bronze/copper color. What's up with that? Does anybody know?
Edited by ThomasD500 2010-11-11 8:36 PM
|
|
| |
|
Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Never seen that shade of 'copper' before---the engine block was painted in Chrysler silver.
What is the Autolite number on your distributor?
What are the numbers and codes on the carb? The small letters/number will tell you when it was assembled.
For a power brake car, that pedal's got a LOT of wear on it. What is its mileage?
Your car was driven hard, and put away wet, apparently (literally--lolol).
All that red/white color, in/around the interior cavity is OEM body paint overspray (that nobody, otherwise, ever sees).
That VIN tag just pops-off; you should remove it and safeguard it, somewhere.
Edited by d500neil 2010-11-11 8:53 PM
|
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 508
Location: Orlando | The speedo reads 40k something. I've always assumed it was rolled over once. Definitely not a low mileage car. The gas pedal is well worn, too.
The dist. numbers are: 1779952 IBP4002D 5M605799
The number on the carb tag reads: 2622xA (the x represents an unreadable character.)
While getting those numbers, I noticed more of the copper color on the valley pan. It'll be interesting to see what it looks like after I get it cleaned up. |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 508
Location: Orlando | You know, with the mileage on this car, it is always possible that the motor has been out of the car before, and then painted this color. On the other hand, under the hood is so original. It even has all the original wire hose clamps.
Everybody wants to think that there is truly something 'special' about their car. Maybe with this copper paint, I will just let myself be deluded It IS an interesting color... |
|
| |
|
Location: Parts Unknown | The copper colored paint OBVIOUSLY signifies a car built in Antarctica for the Balkan market. Few know
that some of these cars were diverted to the U.S. market by a clerical misunderstanding of the country
and state both using the name "Georgia".
Duh ! 
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3577
Location: Blythewood, SC | Doctor DeSoto - 2010-11-11 11:48 PM
The copper colored paint OBVIOUSLY signifies a car built in Antarctica for the Balkan market. Few know
that some of these cars were diverted to the U.S. market by a clerical misunderstanding of the country
and state both using the name "Georgia".
Duh !
:golf clap:
Well played! |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 4054
Location: Connecticut | ThomasD500 - 2010-11-11 9:20 PM The dist. numbers are: 1779952 IBP4002D 5M605799 The number on the carb tag reads: 2622xA (the x represents an unreadable character.) Your numbers all check out against the parts book. Interesting to note that despite being a D500, you have a single point distributor. They went with a dual point later on in the model year. On the carb, your unreadable character is 'S'. Ron
|
|
| |
|
Board Moderator
Posts: 3186
Location: The not-so-great, dirty-white North ( Michigan) | I am surprised that the Torque Converter is AIR-cooled!
I would have thought that the KD500 option engine would have gotten a transmission oil cooler and not utilized an air-cooled TC......
|
|
| |
|
Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Ron, only the dual-carb Super D500's (and the race-car D501's) have a dual point distributor ( IBS-4005, for them both).
The "Late" single-4 D500 has dissie IBP-4002-D, as Tom mentions, on his car; the "Early" cars have IBK-4301-A on them.
Tom, there are a couple smaller digits also stamped onto your carb's brass ID tag.
Those small digits, should have something like E-7 or maybe F-7, to confirm a May/June carburetor build date.
From the 'hammered' condition of that power brake pedal, I can believe that the car's mileage is 140K, AND, that the engine
had been pulled for some O/H work, during its lifetime.
Hank, all of the 57 Dodges have air cooled transmissions in them---the 501's were N/A on an auto trannie.
Finally, Tom; there IS something really Special about your car: it, apparently SURVIVED 140,00 miles
of fairly-energetic usage---if that tachometer's presence is to be believed---before being 'rescued'
by you!
[No Broadcast Sheet found masking-taped behind the glove box, huh?; is there any residual-residue
there, which confirms that one was ever 'stuck'...there???]
Edited by d500neil 2010-11-12 4:58 PM
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 4054
Location: Connecticut | d500neil - 2010-11-12 4:29 PM Ron, only the dual-carb Super D500's (and the race-car D501's) have a dual point distributor ( IBS-4005, for them both). The "Late" single-4 D500 has dissie IBP-4002-D, as Tom mentions, on his car; the "Early" cars have IBK-4301-A on them. Neil - Parts book (55-58, published May 1964) says engines up to D500-4430 were built with IBK-4003A/1642392 double breaker. D500 engines 4430 thru 11735 were built with IBP-4002D/1779952 single breaker. D500 engines built subsequent to 11735 were built with IBS-4005A/1841518 double breaker.
|
|
| |
|
Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Ron, the 1957 Dodge Factory Service Manual (Specifications page 505) and the Dodge A.M.A. "Consolidated Specification
Questionnaire" (issued on JAN 1957; page 9) state that the single-4 D500 dissie was/is IBP 4002-D (single-point) and that the Super-D
and the D501 got the IBS-4005 dissie.
Actually, in the A.M.A. Specifications (pg.9), the IBK-4301-A is only identified as pertaining to the "Up To" cars,
and with the IBP-4002-D pertaining to the "After" cars, but, the demarcation-point (engine number or VIN) for the dissie change
is not confirmed.
Suffice it to say that the "Up To" cars ended sometime (well-)prior to JAN, 1957, when the A.M.A. Specs were promulgated---as evidenced
by the ENGINE brochure's declaration that only the 'Supers' got a dual dissie.
The 1957 Dodge Engine brochure states, in Re: "The New 310HP Super D500" engine: "It offers DUAL [italics] 4-barrel carburetors,
matching intake manifold, and a special, heavy-duty, double-breaker distributor".
"The New 285HP D500" engine's description says nothing about its distributor, as do (not-) the other engine models.
Never-say-never, but I've never seen a single-4 1957 Dodge with anything other than a single-point distributor.
Edited by d500neil 2010-11-12 6:33 PM
|
|
| |
|
Account deactivated by owner's request
Location: On this barrel | my kd500-4096 (single 4) came with the IBK-4301A Dual point ...
Edited by 56royaldodge 2010-11-13 1:51 PM
 (a.JPG)
Attachments
----------------
 a.JPG (65KB - 310 downloads)
|
|
| |
|
Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Ok, Fred; since the engine sequencing began with 1001, your engine was the 3,096th installed--theoretically.
Darrell Davis' Historical Society research has found that not all of the 1957 Dodge engines were absolutely-sequentially
installed (especially on the 501's, but, them are different critters!), but, lacking an IBM card copy for your engine,
#3,096th was probably installed in OCT/NOV 1956, which is definitely early production, and, your distributor (thankfully)
carries the item number as listed in the 1957 A.M.A. Specifications sheets.
I was too lazy, before now, to dig out the 1956 Dodge A.M.A. Specifications---so, I can't take credit for saying this, before now---
but, the 1956 D500 (which had solid valve lifters in it) DID USE the IBK-4301-A dual point distributor on it, and, I believe that this
dissie was also used in the 1956 D-500-1 race cars.
So, the good old dual point IBK-4301-A was a carry-over from 1956, and, probably was put into the 'Early' cars, until their supply
stock ran-out----which makes perfect sense, because Dodge knew that they were going to run out of them, early-on, and so
decided that they could not advertise their availability on the Single-4's.
Dodge had a DIFFERENT dual-point dissie dialed in for use in the hydraulic valve lifter-ed Super D500 (IBS-4005)....which was not
ever (apparently) installed in the Single-4 D500's.
Fred, you've got yourself one HOT performing distributor, there!
As a complete sidebar, thanks to electronics guru Dave Homstad, I am nearing the end of an intermittent 3-year odyssy where
I have found "the ONE best" configured dual point dissie that also has 28 degrees of mechanical advancement, for the 1957 Dodge
engine: the IAZ-4001-E, which was only found in/on the 1955 Windsor Poly-engine. Going to put an 18degree-d vacuum advance
on it, and will dial-in that puppy to get about 36 degrees of total mechanical advancement (8-ish initial) and 54 degrees total
advancement.....and will, then, install a Pertronix "under-cap" electonic ignition into it, to replace the 10 y.o. separate-power-box E.I.
that I've got in H. now.----I'm planning on doing a 'how-to' thread on this "effort" sometime next year.
The 1956 Dodge dualie, IBK-4301-A, has 30 degrees of mechanical advancement, according to Dave Homstad, which is very-good,
but not quite perfect for 1957 Dodge dissie hot-rodding.
Edited by d500neil 2010-11-13 3:49 PM
|
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 508
Location: Orlando | update: No new pictures (they are still on the camera)
I have most of the disassembly done. It is now officially a basket case! It is SO grungy that multiple sessions of degreaser and power washing still haven't removed much of the grime. I haven't even started on the underneath of the car yet. Even under the dashboard, the top of the wiper motor is covered in a layer of greasy/dirty grunge...how does that even happen?
I ordered about $350 worth of suspension parts from RockAuto. All of it is the top quality stuff...polyurethane or some equivalent. They didn't have tie-rods, but I got the outers on Ebay. I didn't see the front bushings for the leaf springs (they had new shackles/bushings.)
Also, are there any 'alternatives' for the flywheel/torque converter? The reason I ask is because many of the teeth on the flywheel are chewed up pretty bad. It seems that the flywheel and the converter are one piece. SO I am not sure how to repair or replace. |
|
| |
|
Elite Veteran
Posts: 608
Location: Madison, Wisconsin | Neil and Fred,
I believe that the D500 Distributor (IBJ4301A) has a mechanical advance of 19 deg total. The 56 Dodge Poly 270cid distributor (IBJ4301) has a mechanical advance of 30 degrees total. The 56 Dodge Poly 315cid with power pack (IBJ4303B) has a mechanical advance of 30 degrees as well.
Additionally there is a IBJ4301A distributor on EPay right now http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1956-Dodge-Distributor-Core-spins-fr...
Edited by 56RoyalLancer 2010-11-24 12:30 PM
|
|
| |
|
Exner Expert 19,174 posts. Neil passed away 18 Sep 2015. You will be missed, Neil!
Posts: 19146
Location: bishop, ca | Actually, the 1956 D500 (single-4) distributor is IBK-4301A (dual-point/19-degrees: correct), and not "IBJ-xxxx"; the IBK-series is a
dual point dissie; the IBJ-series of dissies is/are single-point units.
To put in a Pertronix electronic ignition into a distributor requires that a dual-point breaker plate be installed in it.
After about 3 years of various discussions and/or searching (for about this past year), I've finally found the "perfect" dissie
for a 57 Dodge----which is the dualie that ONLY appeared on the 1955 Windsor: IAZ-4001E....which has 28 degrees of
mechanical advancement; which Dave Homstad will, soon, dial-in for me, further, so that its 28 degrees mechanical;
10 degrees initial, and 16 degrees vacuum-advance... (the vacuum advance was obtained SEPARATELY, from Ebay, because the
4001E's vacuum advance is too high--like, 26, IIRC)....will produce 54 degrees of total advancement.
The ideal total advance range, according to Dave, is 45-55, which is not-all that easy or simple to obtain, at least, if you
want to install a Pertronix E.I. system (which, again, requires that a dual-point breaker plate [be-installed-in] the dissie,
to 'hold' the E.I. components).
There are a few other SINGLE-point dissies with the 'magic' 28 degree-30 degree "cam-and-plate" mechanical advancements
in them, but, they will, still, require that a 'donor' dual breaker plate, from some dualie, be installed in them, in order to install
a Pertronix system into them.
Some good candidates for this project include:
IAZ-4001E (55 Windsor: the ONLY dissie that is a dualie, WITH 28 degrees of advancement: GOLD standard).
IBJ-4303A (56 Windsor; single point, but 28 degrees)
These following-guys have 30-degree mechanical advancements in them (all are single-point dissies)--which will require that
you score a donor-dual-breaker-plate, in order to install a Pertronix Electronic Ignition system into them:
IBJ-4303B (56 Dodge 315; 4-bbl)
IBJ-4301A (56 Dodge/PLY 270; Poly 2-bbl)
IBJ-4301B (56 PLY 301 2-bbl)
Most 56 Coronets and Plymouth V/8's will have the IBJ-4301A in them ; your best-bet to get a 30-degree dissie.
Any-old "IAZ" dissie will be a dualie, for breaker-plate-donation purposes; no need to pay for a Letter Car dissie,
just to cannabalize its breaker plate.
You'll find that "IAZ" dissies can/will be (very-) pricey.
Due to the new-for-56 12-volt electrical systems, most 56+ engines only needed a single-point distributor .
Incidentally, Dave Homstad confirms that the Letter-Car dissies have too wimpy (OK: too-low) mechanical advancements to be of
suitable performance usage to us.
Dave states that most engines (including Hemis) make their maximum HP and efficiency at about 35-36 degrees total-mechanical
(initial advance + distributor advance) under significant acceleration, when the vacuum advance is inactive, at around 3K RPM.
Dave refers to all the 57+ dissies as being "pitifully retarded".
Dialing in a dissie to have about 10-initial, 28/30 distributor-mechanical, and 16-18 degrees of vacuum advancement will
produce the best overall performance for our 55-57 FWDLKers.
I've only discussed the 56/57 Dodge Hemi applications with Dave.
Edited by d500neil 2010-11-26 8:01 PM
|
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 508
Location: Orlando | Been busy with the holiday season, bad weather and all, but I got a little work done on it today. I wire brushed the floor and trunk pans with a 4 1/2" angle grinder. It works pretty good and even tears out thin metal, so I am pretty sure that everything left is solid. My floor pan that seemed all there is now looking a little bit more like Swiss cheese here and there. I hit it with oxy-solve (phosphoric acid with zinc.)
I'm going to be gone for the rest of the weekend until Monday, and I am still going back and forth in my mind what I should primer this with. I was originally planning on hitting it with epoxy, but it is not totally 'clean' metal. Now I'm thinking Rustoleum Rusty Metal primer. Although it's not exactly 'rusty' any more, either.
And in this last picture, you can see the brown 'primer' that was used on the floor pan. In the trunk, there is a gray primer. Not sure why they are different.
First post of the New Year!!!!!!!
Edited by ThomasD500 2011-01-01 12:14 AM
|
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 3577
Location: Blythewood, SC | Looks good! I'd still coat it with Rust Bullet, or POR, or some sort of rust converting coating. Running a grinder with a wire brush is tiring! I bet you are shot after that much work.
Edited by 57plymouth 2011-01-01 8:37 AM
|
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 508
Location: Orlando | Yes, I'm a bit sore. I guess it's from contorting into so many positions to get at everything from every angle!
As far as what to use as a rust preventative coating, I've done a lot of research and gone around and around in circles in my mind as to what is the best thing to use. Fact is, as should be no surprise to anyone, there is no one, perfect solution, other to sandblast the entire care to white metal and then epoxy...something I'm obviously not doing due to lack of resources. Everything else is some sort of compromise.
As for POR-15, according to my research, it is a semi-epoxy with acid in it to do the rust conversion. THe epoxy part is what does such a good job starving any remaining rust. I think it is a sound principle. But you know, it's really just an improvement on the rust conversion paints that you can buy in almost any store including Walmart. You know, the stuff that is milky white and turns the rust black and leaves a black primer (which must be topcoated), like Rust Reformer and Eastwoods Rust Converter. That stuff is a tannic acid (which does the rust conversion) and latex primer (which has no resistance in itself to moisture and must be topcoated.) So POR-15 really does the same thing (maybe even uses tannic acid, but I'm not sure which acid it uses) and an epoxy which is much more appropriate than the latex that comes with the other 'rust converters' out there.
I did an experiment with a small bottle of the Rust Reformer I bought at WalMart and it seemed to stick tenaciously in the one spot where I tried it...much like what I hear of POR-15.
BUT, the thing that comes to my mind is: If POR-15 is such a great product as an all-in-one (acid plus one part epoxy), then shouldn't a true TWO part system be better? Like using the acid first (ospho and the like) and THEN a REAL two part epoxy, which is even better than one part epoxies (like POR15 uses)? Well the problem is that once you do the ospho (or one of the many similar products) thing, after that, the two part epoxy just doesn't stick that well. Don't know why, but it doesn't. That's what I've read and I did a little experiment and came to the same conclusion. Where I'd used ospho first and then painted with a two-part epoxy, I could peel the epoxy off with my fingers.
So I'm back to square one. I've already osphoed (actually oxi-solve, which is the same thing with the bonus of having zinc in the formula) the area which at away a lot of the rust that didn't come off with the grinder. But now I am going to probably use Rustoleum Rusty Metal Primer because I have already acid etched the metal (which por15 does) and the rustoleum has oil in it, which absolutely IS one of the best anti-rust products out there, as simple as that is. Problem is, it's difficult to paint over an oily surface, so you need to buy the paint with the oil built in, just like POR15 has the acid built in...but in this case I can do the acid separately, thus I don't feel I need the por15. My only issue will be that adhesion seems to be reduced when you do the acid as a separate process.
Then I will topcoat the rustoleum primer with my homemade 'lizard skin' which will be ceramic balls mixed with rustolem topcoat (probably white, since that should reduce heat transfer) and then some sort of truck bedliner.
I HOPE all this stuff sticks together, because after all that, I think I will have something pretty impervious to rust, and hopefully any remaining tiny spots of rust that were missed by the angle grinder and acid will be choked out.
But I am STILL going back and forth in my mind as to what's the best stuff to use. |
|
| |
|
Expert 5K+
Posts: 8445
Location: Perth Australia | As you have already "killed" the rust, couldnt you just put the truck liner over that as your sealer? or is it to oiley?
Mick |
|
| |
|
Expert
Posts: 4054
Location: Connecticut | Thomas - I think you may have your facts confused. - POR-15 is a moisture-cure urethane. It will bond to rust, but will not etch it. There is no acid in it.
- Oxy-Solv is a mild solution of Phosphoric Acid that also has soluble zinc as an ingredient. It etches out the rust. Similar to, but better than, Marine Clean by the POR-15 people.
- Rustoleum Rust Reformer is a rust converter that acts on the top layer of rust to convert it to a paint-able surface.
POR-15 is a vastly superior product to the other two, or the other chemicals that you mention. But all have their particular uses. If you start mixing and matching different chemicals rather than following manufacturer's instructions, you will end up with a mess. IMHO, I would start out by cutting and welding in patches where the pinholes are. If you don't have access to a welder and just want to go the chemical route, then wire wheel off the residue left by the Oxy-Solv and coat with POR-15 (or Bill Hirsh Miracle Paint, which I prefer). You must remove the Oxy-Solv, or the POR won't stick properly and you'll be able to peel it off after it dries. THEN once it tacks up, but before it dries, spray it with any old rattle can top coat. This step is necessary to keep the POR from decomposing when hit with sunlight. Ron
|
|
| |
|
Board Moderator
Posts: 3186
Location: The not-so-great, dirty-white North ( Michigan) | ThomasD500 - 2010-11-22 9:04 PM
Also, are there any 'alternatives' for the flywheel/torque converter? The reason I ask is because many of the teeth on the flywheel are chewed up pretty bad. It seems that the flywheel and the converter are one piece. SO I am not sure how to repair or replace.
Thomas...
The ring gear on the Torque Converter should be heat shrunk on and then tack welded in four or six spots for additional retention.
You should be able to carefully grind off the tack welds, and then an automotive machine shop can remove and replace the ring gear.
I had one changed on my Torqueflite from 172 tooth (what you have) to 146 tooth (1956 starter) since I got a TC with wrong ring gear.
The Powerflite and Torqueflite converters used the same ring gears within years (1954- 1956 was 146 tooth, 1957-up was 172 tooth), so all you have to do is find a good converter(ring gear) from either a PF or TF from 1957 through 1961.
You might call Northwest Transmission in Ohio (where I got my converter on exchange) and see if they stock them...... |
|
| |
|
Elite Veteran
Posts: 1053
Location: Ny | Looking good so far, Thomas. I am keeping an eye on this thread as I am getting ready to do the floors in my '55 Desoto once tax time hits. I've always known about POR15 as it has been on the market and built a reputation for itself for a long time. But now there seem to be many more options. Any particular reason to prefer Bill Hirsh over POR15, Ron? To me, it is worth a few extra dollars for a product if it is a superior quality. I don't want to have to grind down the floors again.
Likewise, it's great to get information from others who have been through this route (several times for some), and learn through their experience. I, too, research a project before getting my hands dirty. It just helps avoid any problems in the process. Keep us posted! |
|
| |
|
Extreme Veteran
Posts: 508
Location: Orlando | ronbo97 - 2011-01-02 12:23 AM
Thomas - I think you may have your facts confused.
Well, maybe wrong, but not confused
It seems that proper treatment of rust and POR15 are controversial subjects. No doubt most people say good things about POR15, with a minority claiming it's snake oil.
Let me start over without the 'confusing' rambling.
1 'Rust Reformer' and the like are a tannic acid with a latex primer. The tannic acid does the conversion, and a latex primer is left behind. Basically how I described it earlier.
2. Rustoleum Rusty MEtal Primer: an oil based paint that apparently is 'extra oily' with added fish oil. The fish oil somehow is absorbed out of the paint and into the rusty metal without decreasing adhesion.
3. Phosphoric acid i.e Ospho and the myriad of like products merely convert the rust to ferric phosphate. No controversy there. It's claimed that this will not only converts the rust, but also promotes adhesion. However, it seems that with epoxys and urethanes, it will may DECREASE adhesion. I did a small test and I could pull epoxy off in small sheets with my finger nails where I had painted it over ospho.
4. POR15...the real controversy I can't remember now where I got the info, but I read that it is fortified with epoxy and has an acid conversion component, too.
So yes, it is a urethane, but what's so special about that? Not much. And urethanes are NOT UV sensitive. So obviousy POR15 has changed the formula somewhat. Epoxies ARE UV sensitive and are commonly added to paints to add durability. They are often then sold as 'one part epoxies', but of course they are not really epoxies (real epoxy paints are all 2-part paints), they are just some other sort of paint with already catalyzed epoxy added. I believe this is the case with POR15 because it explains it's widely known characteristics. I'm pretty confident about this one.
Acid: This would explain why it bonds so well to rust, but pulls right off of clean metal (or so I've read over and over again on the internet...the most common complaint of POR15.) Maybe this is a secret component, maybe not. But somewhere I read that it WAS a component of POR15. Without the rusty metal to 'absorb' the acid, the acid simply interferes with the adhesion of the urethane.
If POR15 IS just another moisture cured urethane, then there is nothing special about it that justifies it's higher price, because such urethanes are as common as dirt and nothing special.
But it exhibits characteristics that differ from ohter urethanes, so I believe they tinkered around with the formula to make it what it is. I can't prove what they have or have not added to it, but I am sure that SOMETHING has been added to the plain-Jane urethane.
ANYWAY, I am NOT going to use POR15 simply because my floor is a hatch pattern of more severe rust (with pinholes), very mild rust, clean metal, and original shiny factory primer. POR15 would simply have adhesion problems with 2/3rds or more of my floor pan because it is not rusty enough. I guess I could get some and then spot it in where necessary.
Rustoleum Rusty Metal Primer may not be anybody's favorite, but in my case I need it to work well over a variety of surfaces, and I think it's my best choice. It will be topcoated with rustoleum, so there will be no adhesion problems there, and the bedliner is designed to adhere to a variety of paints, so hopefully no problems there. And so long as nothing peels up, I doubt moisture will find it easy to make it thorough those layers of paint.
OR, I might sand the surface again (because of the oxy-solve (ospho like product) and just paint it with epoxy primer/sealer, which should be more durable and more impervious to moisture that POR15 anyway. Maybe I'll do that...
|
|
| |
My '57 Dodge CRL D500 Restoration
