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Elite Veteran
Posts: 916
 
Location: Pau, S-W France | Hi all,
I just rebult a '58 Torqueflite from a '58 Lebaron. The trans leaks badly from the "front" and we found that the leak came from the front pump seal (which was removed one time because we found "blue" seal ...)
So we overhauled the trans, found that one "teeth" (pump side) of the converter drive sleeve was cut, etc.... The trans itself was in good conditions, aparently overhauled in 1991.
So we rebuilt it, no problem we know them ... We replace the drive sleeve with a spare i have. I note that the "new" sleeve" has a larger hole on it.
Except a "new" problem which sudenetly appears after the first road test (2 miles) : a noticeable whining noise in Neutral only coming from the converter or the front pump through the converter !! As soon as i shift into R or D the noise disappears !!! The trans works great, no problem at all. Except that every time we are in N !!
here are the videos of the noise
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFXF0dSShkY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpVTlzQbXWs
with shifting to D or R) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N--TIiRo_uU
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8445
   
Location: Perth Australia |
Phil
I profess to know next to nothing about auto trans, but those 2 parts look a lot different
Apart from the hole being bigger, the groove that the hole is in is also bigger and it looks like both of the tabs
on the "new" one appear to be chipped.
Maybe this is your new noise
I stand to be corrected but it just an observation
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 916
Location: Pau, S-W France | Yes, the groove is also larger. The left is the one we found broken in the trans, the right came from my "spare box" and i think form a '57 transmission.
The parts manual show 2 references for 55-58: 1636 392 (56-57)
and 1738 246 (57-58) => S27, C76, IM, No. 1 Job. ????????
Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2011-06-18 8:46 AM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 916
Location: Pau, S-W France | Maybe the sleeve was changed when they upgraded the front pump ?
The trans is "P" data coded.
Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2011-06-18 8:54 AM
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Expert
Posts: 3403
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | Phil, sure looks like it you have the updated unit. I just did a 59 trans and no issues, I used the entire pump assy from a 60 Chrysler and the 59 Dodge convertor. The pump is turning in neutral or drive, although it would be unloaded in neutral. The 55-58 part must be a Powerflite drive sleeve, no? Phil, I would pull this out and look for something in the pump, bushing, or drive sleeve fit. The input shaft is turning but no clutch engagement till drive, look in that area also., I know you did not leave out the thrust washer between the pump and front clutch unit?
Edited by Shep 2011-06-20 10:15 PM
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Expert
Posts: 4533
Location: Ripon, WI | For sure make sure you have all the necessary thrust washers. I have one apart on my bench right now that was missing the one between the planetarys.. Ground them against each other! |
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Expert
Posts: 3780
Location: NorCal |
I don't know about the iron TF but the later units often experience a high pitched whine/moan that is caused by a rapidly cycling pressure regulator valve. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 916
Location: Pau, S-W France | Thanks to all for the replies !! I haven't forget the thrust washer .. We'll check the regulator valve, it's easy to do it because it is external.
I've driven the car several miles and all is ok. It seems, but i must verify, i'm not sure, that the noise is also heard in R when the car is in motion.
When the car has been stoped for a while, the noise doesn't appear immediatly, only after 5 to 15 s, relate to the fluid level in the pan because ther's a drainback converter and after 3 days the level is 4 to 5 inches higher than "F".
You can see the video when i restart the car after 4 days. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWcvxxtJtk
Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2011-06-25 4:06 AM
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8445
Location: Perth Australia | Just watched you video, that noise has to be related to the imput shaft of thr trans.
As you know, its completely tied to engine rpm while its in neutral but when you put it in gear, its gone.
The way i'm thinking is that when in n ,the imput shaft can turn at the same speed as the engine because there is no gear engaged, but
when you put it into gear, then the shaft gets locked up, noise gone.
It would be interesting to listen to the car with the wheels in the air and in gear. It may not be easy to hear on the road.
It really sounds like 2 gears running together either with no oil or having straight cut gears.
I really think your going to have to pull the trans out again to see whats happened
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 916
Location: Pau, S-W France | No problem about trans. we'll remove it in some days, problem is to find the culprit !!!
I'll jack up the car and try to listen but i'm sure that when the car is in motion ther's no noise. I must try to switch to N when the car is in motion
Do you think ther's a problem to drive the car 50 or 100 miles before ?
Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2011-06-25 8:45 AM
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Expert
Posts: 3403
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | Phil, I wouldn't. Also, I get the same convertor drain back in my 55.
Edited by Shep 2011-06-25 1:51 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 916
Location: Pau, S-W France | I've checked in R and the noise is present and proportional to the speed in R. It's the same noise than on some old manual trans. cars when you drive in reverse.
I've also switch to N when the car was driven at 40 to 50 mhp, no whine while coasting in N !! |
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Expert
Posts: 3895
Location: Northen Virginia | Sound like your starter ring gear is touching something, I’m sure is not because it noise is gone on D, but sound like that on the video.
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Expert
Posts: 3780
Location: NorCal |
It is possible that the noise is related to crankshaft thrust, a severely worn thrust bearing would allow the converter to change for/aft position when in Neutral or in gear. Easy enouigh to check. |
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Expert
Posts: 3403
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | Aside from unloading the engine and trans in N, you are not loading the input shaft and of course the front clutches are disengaged, on the lift using a stethoscope can you pinpoint the source? |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8445
Location: Perth Australia | Phil, I wouldnt drive it anywhere
As soon as that noise appeared, I would have done all I could to try and locate it to see if it was something simple
and if I couldnt find it, pull the trans.
If it is something grinding or running dry, it is destroying itself
By now I think you will have plenty to look at to see whats dying
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 916
Location: Pau, S-W France | Thanks to all.
When i am under the car i locate the noise at the torque converter but it could come from behind the torque converter ! Every time i go in gears the noise stops as like something stoping from "revolve" then "engage".
Remember also that the noise doesn't appear immediatly but only after a few seconds (after line pressure builds up ?). If it was a starter ring noise it'll be present as soon as i start.
Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2011-06-26 2:43 AM
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
Posts: 13056
Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | I assume that you have aligned the trans with the engine Phil? When I listen to that sound, it's like the converter is grinding the rotor against the stator. When you engage the Drive the converter "locks" together, but when idling in N, the rotor runs free against (?) the stator?? |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 916
Location: Pau, S-W France | Some news today: i drive the car to a "periodic and mandatory checkup" which controls brake, steering, suspension, etc... and for this purpose they have to put the car on rolling rollers. When the rear wheels were on the rollers (driven at small speed) while the car was in N, the sound pitch was different, a lower "treble" than in video. The guy try several times and every times he "drives" the rear wheel the sound became louder...
So may be ther's some relation with rear clutch ? The rear clutch friction plates are in motion when you're in N (but not engaging)
Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2011-06-29 4:30 PM
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Expert
Posts: 3403
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | Phil, at somepoint it is coming back out and you will have go thru it very carefully, although it would be nice to know just where to look. |
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Member
Posts: 5
| FYI:All Powerflites whine in neutral as do, coincidently Chevy Powerglides. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8445
Location: Perth Australia | If you look at the you tube link further up the page and have a listen, no trans whines
like this one and will live very long.
Surprised myself that its even lasted this long, would have started taking it back out about a minuit after it started that racket
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Expert
Posts: 3403
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | DERITM - 2011-06-30 9:49 AM
FYI:All Powerflites whine in neutral as do, coincidently Chevy Powerglides. Not that loud, never heard one including mine that are that harsh. |
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Member
Posts: 5
| Yeah, listened to the video-that's pretty bad and it's a TF anyway. Cast
TFs don't whine at all. I'll vote for the pump drive sleeve problem . . .mixed up parts? |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 916
Location: Pau, S-W France | Hi all,
Thursday we remove the trans from the car and try to find "something" ....
I just send a message to fastco about the pump sleeve. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 916
Location: Pau, S-W France | We've found the problem or rather the problems !!! And you can give us a 0/20 because we made two errors, not sure if they are related....
When yesterday we remove the pan we found some black "material" and also some filing ... The oil and the inside have also a smell of burnt ... Not very good ...
My friend took a look immediatly to the fiber washers which could be seen a little at the front and told me that they seem in bad conditions ...
About these fiber thrust washers :
1) When we reinstalled the units two weeks ago we found that the front clutch end clearance was more than.050 (must be between .020 and .050. To brint it to the correct value we had to put 2 fiber washers. We were surprised to have to put two washers but we did and then the clearance was around .020.
But we don't measure it before removal so we couldn't check "before" and "after"!!!!
When we remove the units, the two washers were melted and set at the right thickness ....
Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2011-07-09 12:14 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1737
Location: Hay Lakes, Alberta, Canada | Phil, I was cruising through my '57 parts manual last night, and saw a note regarding TF transmissions model #1671 747; the rear oil pump housing has a hole drilled in it to eliminate a "buzzing" noise. Could this be your issue? The notes seem to point out that later transmissions had this 1/32" hole drilled in the pump housing to fix this problem. Just a thought... |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 916
Location: Pau, S-W France | Second error (and cause we think, of the whine):
The four levers of the front clutch were installed 180° (see pics) so the edge of the clutch hub rubs against the shoulder of the levers. The lever is asymetrical and the shorter lenght must be near the housing . If installed in reverse manner as we did, ther's too much lenght in horizontal dimension and then the hub rubs... The hub rubs also on the center of the housing and on the interior of input shaft assembly (first pic show the side of the hub who rubs against it, i don't have pic of the reverse siide of the hub, side which rubs on levers) The filing materail came from this we think.
The whine disapears in D because the levers engage the clutch so the hub and housing are locked. When the car was on rolling rollers the hub was driven by the rear so there was a relative decrease in speed and the whine was louder.
These explications seem logical to me but .... we are not proud !!!!
Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2011-07-09 12:35 PM
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Expert
Posts: 3403
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | Phil there is your noise, good find as bad as it turned out to be, no more 2 thrust washers either, they are made to be between 2 metal surfaces not up against each other.. The fluid got hot from the front clutch slipping when in neutral but applied just enough to heat up the fluid.
Edited by Shep 2011-07-09 4:18 PM
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 916
Location: Pau, S-W France | I'm pleased to say that the whine has disappear !!! With levers in the correct installation, with a KD carrier thrust washer, missing since 1991 job (the one between unit 2 and 3); with a correct "front clutch cushion spring " (which looks like a clutch plate but itsn't a clutch plate ...) , with a new front pump sleeve and a new fiber washer, the Torqueflite works as new ! |
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Expert
Posts: 3403
Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | Good job, evey important to correct an issue that was wrong during assy, easy mistake to make!! |
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Expert
Posts: 3895
Location: Northen Virginia | Thanks for let us know Phil. Yes, seems like an easy detail to overlook. |
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Expert
Posts: 3895
Location: Northen Virginia | This clutch and retainer PKG that I purchased years ago, I was wonder why they are 8 lever on it.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 916
Location: Pau, S-W France | hemidenis - 2011-07-17 6:53 AM
I was wonder why they are 8 lever on it.
1957 transmission prior to 50849 transmission (or prior to letter "K") were eight levers type (in front clutch). The four levers was used after 50849 '57 Torqueflite and all '58 Torqueflite.
The eight levers type returns in '59 transmission but itsn't the same than earlier 57 !
Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2011-07-17 4:17 AM
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Expert
Posts: 3895
Location: Northen Virginia | Holly….. What a mess I have another kit described as fitting 1957 up to Trans #36772
Edited by hemidenis 2011-07-17 4:08 PM
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Torqueflite whine in N
