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1958 Fuel Injected Mopars
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60 Imp
Posted 2018-08-13 5:48 AM (#568349 - in reply to #568339)
Subject: RE: 1958 Fuel Injected Mopars


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That is sweet Nathan, you should ask him to post some pics/vid of his car on this thread. Steve.
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Rock'nRoll
Posted 2018-08-13 11:17 PM (#568389 - in reply to #324908)
Subject: RE: 1958 Fuel Injected Mopars


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Very glad to hear that another FI car got converted back to fuel injection! So that's one Adventurer and one 300D, now all we need is for someone to find one of the mythical and elusive FI D-500's and for the FI Fury to resurface (I believe someone on this site said one of the two Fury's was still around).
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Lancer Mike
Posted 2018-08-13 11:24 PM (#568390 - in reply to #568389)
Subject: RE: 1958 Fuel Injected Mopars



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There were rumors of a EFI D-500 found upside down, resting on its roof.

Never seen images, never seen a data plate - just vapors.

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C-300
Posted 2018-08-14 12:01 AM (#568391 - in reply to #324908)
Subject: RE: 1958 Fuel Injected Mopars


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Per’s Fuel Injected 300D. He used the original intake manifold and throttle bodies/air cleaners. The injectors, computer, and fuel rail are new/custom built. It has a custom built crank trigger, air temp sensor, and a lot of other one off parts. It’s a great and effective melding of original parts and modern (reliable) technology. The timing, idle speed, and fuel/air mixture were all set with a laptop computer. It runs fast and smooth. Per has a couple of issues (dirt in the fuel), so he replaced a couple of the injectors, cleaned the tank and lines, and it seems to be running better all the time.



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Attachments 8D66E1DD-5CC3-4AFE-9514-83C96FAB96F9.jpeg (98KB - 395 downloads)
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2018-08-14 12:49 AM (#568393 - in reply to #568390)
Subject: RE: 1958 Fuel Injected Mopars



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Lancer Mike - 2018-08-14 8:24 PM

There were rumors of a EFI D-500 found upside down, resting on its roof.

Never seen images, never seen a data plate - just vapors.



=================================

It seems a F/I Dodge saw it's end in a wrecking yard somewhere in
NE Oregon or SE Washington. I heard of this car from a picker that
had the F/I emblems. When asked where the rest of the car was, he
was unable to say exactly where, but that he had taken them off a car
in that general area while he was on a picking trip. Before his passing,
Neil Vedder traingulated this information through others who had seen
the car. However, specifics of location or if the car survived have eluded
us.
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60 Imp
Posted 2018-08-14 7:30 AM (#568397 - in reply to #568391)
Subject: RE: 1958 Fuel Injected Mopars


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Shoot, I'm pretty slow off the mark..............

This is Per's car, associated with Jay L. Thanks for posting the pics C-300, (and laying the bait Nate!). I hope they do a segment on this car too. It's good to see and hear someone is resurrecting this Chrysler technology. It's so rare almost no-one knows about it except us FL mob.

The car looks good. Keen to see more of it.

Steve.

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Lancer Mike
Posted 2018-08-14 9:48 PM (#568441 - in reply to #568397)
Subject: RE: 1958 Fuel Injected Mopars



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I expected to see more of that perforated metal cover stuff all over that engine - great to see another running EFI car!

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mstrug
Posted 2018-08-15 6:04 AM (#568463 - in reply to #568441)
Subject: RE: 1958 Fuel Injected Mopars



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Lancer Mike - 2018-08-14 8:48 PM

I expected to see more of that perforated metal cover stuff all over that engine - great to see another running EFI car!



Same here. If I duplicate the engine, I would make it look as 'original' as possible Maybe put the brain box someplace safe, but make it seem real. He has a nice start there.
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C-300
Posted 2018-08-15 11:51 AM (#568480 - in reply to #324908)
Subject: Re: 1958 Fuel Injected Mopars


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The perforated metal was only used on one show car and were not intended for the production cars. Per has, however, shown interest in making a set of shields for his car. Collecting all of the pieces (which took him a decade) was the biggest challenge. Getting it running took months of work and a specialist flown in from Europe. The shields are the easy part... just not necessary.

Aaron
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mstrug
Posted 2018-09-02 6:24 PM (#569460 - in reply to #324908)
Subject: Re: 1958 Fuel Injected Mopars



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https://www.ebay.com/itm/MOPAR-1832038-NAMEPLATE-FUEL-INJECTION-1958...
M/183409402269?epid=15021222449&hash=item2ab40d619d:g:KNQAAOSwq75bb1e1&vxp=mtr
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fury fan
Posted 2022-10-24 9:18 PM (#625097 - in reply to #324908)
Subject: Re: 1958 Fuel Injected Mopars


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Posts: 10

1959 EFI manifold?

I'm new here, I just joined, this discussion was linked in a discussion on an EFI 300D on For C Bodies Only.
I realize this is a 4-year-old thread, and this is somewhat of a hijack - but I think you'll understand and forgive.

What I have:
I have an EFI manifold that is reportedly a 1959 version.
It's a cast-iron dual-plane EFI intake, fits the B-block engines, and is configured for a 4-throat throttle body.
The plenum pattern is completely different from a modern 4V carb. Perhaps it matches the WCFB, but I have no way to know.
If it did match the WCFB, that would permit easy retrofit back to a carb (perhaps the engineers were planning ahead???)
I am hoping to find a factory engineer that worked on that program, but with every passing year that becomes less likely to happen.

The backstory:
20-ish years ago a buddy sent me a link to an unusual intake manifold on ebay. (my buddy was fabulous for finding unique things on there)
We kinda knew what it was, but not exactly. I placed a Hail-Mary bid and via a miracle it became mine. That began a periodic search for info, like an adopted kid trying to find his birth parents.

The ebay seller said he got it in the trunk of a car he got from a guy known as Desoto-____. I don't remember the name though. Desoto-Bob, maybe, or Desoto-Joe?
IIRC it was intended for 59 for the lower-priced cars, but when EFI failed in 58 they abandoned future programs, of course.
I suppose it could've been a prototype for 58 Desoto instead of the twin 2-throat TBs, but no way to know at this point.




I've emailed with a few folks over the years, but haven't found someone who actually knows about this intake
10+ years ago I spoke with Tom White, former owner of the EFI Adventurer, but he did not have any info on this intake.

Anyone here have any knowledge, or know someone I could contact?







(FI intake #1 DSC02796-1000.jpg)



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Attachments FI intake #1 DSC02796-1000.jpg (77KB - 87 downloads)
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Lancer Mike
Posted 2022-10-24 9:55 PM (#625101 - in reply to #625097)
Subject: Re: 1958 Fuel Injected Mopars



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Welcome to the forums, Fury Fan!  Mysterious!  Some images may help along with part numbers...

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fury fan
Posted 2022-10-24 10:16 PM (#625105 - in reply to #625101)
Subject: Re: 1958 Fuel Injected Mopars


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Thanks for the welcome!
Photo posted.
Had to research how to post a picture here, not as intuitive as other sites I frequent.
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Chrome58
Posted 2022-10-25 11:31 AM (#625122 - in reply to #324908)
Subject: Re: 1958 Fuel Injected Mopars



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Hi Fury Fan,

Nice story, but I doubt it's really what you think it is.
First of all, a prototype intake would not have a casting number, nor would it be released to the public.

But more importantly, the FI system Mopar developed at the time was NOT a throttle body fuel injection, but a direct one.
The 1958 FI intake had 8 separate ports for each injector, which is not the case on this intake.
See here : https://www.allpar.com/threads/1958-chrysler-desoto-electrojector-wo...

Edited by Chrome58 2022-10-25 12:10 PM
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57burb
Posted 2022-10-25 6:02 PM (#625140 - in reply to #625101)
Subject: Re: 1958 Fuel Injected Mopars



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I took a look through all of the '58 through '65 parts books, and did not find a reference to an intake with a 1947 142 part number (please verify that's what it says).
https://mymopar.com/parts-manuals/

The carburetor (throttle body?) bolt pattern looks like the "square" 3 3/4" x 3 7/8" pattern used by the early WCFBs, up through about 1958. Some early Holleys used this pattern too. Later WCFBs and most AFB/AVS carburetors used the more common 4 1/4" x 5 5/8" pattern.

The only thing that looks weird about that intake are the holes above each intake runner. You didn't mention it, but I suspect those are open to the port, correct? So you're thinking it is something like a port EFI arrangement? The intake runners on the '58 EFI cars were arranged that way but had thick bosses that supported the injectors.

It makes sense they would have eventually gone to a single-four pattern if the pilot program was successful... but it was not, and they knew it wasn't very quickly. I can't tell you what that intake is exactly, but I would need to find some more evidence to say it had anything to do with the EFI program. It is interesting though, hopefully someone here can help! Thanks for sharing.



(fi.jpg)



(Fuelie2.jpg)



(Fuelie3.jpg)



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fury fan
Posted 2022-10-26 4:22 PM (#625160 - in reply to #625140)
Subject: Re: 1958 Fuel Injected Mopars


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Chrome58 - 2022-10-25 11:31 AM

Hi Fury Fan,

Nice story, but I doubt it's really what you think it is.
First of all, a prototype intake would not have a casting number, nor would it be released to the public.

But more importantly, the FI system Mopar developed at the time was NOT a throttle body fuel injection, but a direct one.
The 1958 FI intake had 8 separate ports for each injector, which is not the case on this intake.
See here : https://www.allpar.com/threads/1958-chrysler-desoto-electrojector-wo...


Although I am speculating on its purpose based on some 2nd-hand info, there's no doubt (to me, anyway) that it's an authentic Chrysler part.
This is a port-EFI manifold like the 58, although it is cast differently at the injector area (hard to discern in that photo, though).
And a single throttle body (vs 1958's dual) is certainly a logical 'next year' cost-reduction. (fewer parts, simpler linkage, labor savings on the assy line, etc)

I called it prototype, but perhaps pre-production is more correct.
I don't know Chrysler's traditions back then, but when I worked for an automotive OEM, we did put casting#s on prototype parts (it is simple for the foundry to do, and no engineering or testing can occur on something with no part#).
Prototype items did also escape out the back door sometimes - which is what I suspect happened with this one.



57burb - 2022-10-25 6:02 PM

I took a look through all of the '58 through '65 parts books, and did not find a reference to an intake with a 1947 142 part number (please verify that's what it says).
https://mymopar.com/parts-manuals/

The carburetor (throttle body?) bolt pattern looks like the "square" 3 3/4" x 3 7/8" pattern used by the early WCFBs, up through about 1958. Some early Holleys used this pattern too. Later WCFBs and most AFB/AVS carburetors used the more common 4 1/4" x 5 5/8" pattern.

The only thing that looks weird about that intake are the holes above each intake runner. You didn't mention it, but I suspect those are open to the port, correct? So you're thinking it is something like a port EFI arrangement? The intake runners on the '58 EFI cars were arranged that way but had thick bosses that supported the injectors.

It makes sense they would have eventually gone to a single-four pattern if the pilot program was successful... but it was not, and they knew it wasn't very quickly. I can't tell you what that intake is exactly, but I would need to find some more evidence to say it had anything to do with the EFI program. It is interesting though, hopefully someone here can help! Thanks for sharing.


Yes, you read the casting# correctly. I would not expect you to find it in the parts manuals either, as it didn't make it to production (I think that is a foregone conclusion).
Out of curiosity - what are the 2 closest part #s, (lower and higher), I wonder if there is a block of #s missing, which might suggest other EFI parts were engineered (like the throttle body, maybe an air cleaner base).
Also - what model year do other 1947xxx part number birth into? (I assume Chrysler used a simple odometer system for part#s).

When I get some spare time, I may check that early WCFB pattern and see if it matches.

You correct, the 8 holes are open to the intake runner, and are threaded at 1/2-20. The flat area, where the holes are, is raised and thick, so different than the cast-in bosses on the 1958. I do not know what the original injector fittings would have looked like, but I had a machinist friend make me 8 fittings that will hold modern 'Bosch-type' injectors. Interestingly, all the 1958 photos show that the injectors and fuel rails are threaded together, so there are no hold-downs that are required with O-ringed bosses/injectors.




So as I said to Chrome58 - if it's not what it seems to be, what is it?
It's not a photoshop, it's not been modified, it has all the look/feel of an authentic article that my 25+ years of non-expert Chrysler experience can assess.
The photo above is as I received it, it is fully machined and all holes are tapped, I have bolted it onto a 383 and it fits perfectly (or it seems to, I don't know if it seals, but it does not rock back and forth).
I haven't even painted it.

Hence why I'm hoping an engineer, or someone intimate to that dept, will see this.

Edited by fury fan 2022-10-26 4:24 PM
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Powerflite
Posted 2022-10-26 5:17 PM (#625163 - in reply to #324908)
Subject: Re: 1958 Fuel Injected Mopars



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I suspect that those holes were used for early testing of EGR systems, not fuel injection. It would need to have a machined face to be used for fuel injection, and there's no reason for them to have made a second EFI manifold when they already had one to use for that purpose.
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Chrome58
Posted 2022-10-27 6:59 AM (#625177 - in reply to #625160)
Subject: Re: 1958 Fuel Injected Mopars



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fury fan - 2022-10-26 10:22 PM
Yes, you read the casting# correctly. I would not expect you to find it in the parts manuals either, as it didn't make it to production (I think that is a foregone conclusion).
Out of curiosity - what are the 2 closest part #s, (lower and higher), I wonder if there is a block of #s missing, which might suggest other EFI parts were engineered (like the throttle body, maybe an air cleaner base).
Also - what model year do other 1947xxx part number birth into? (I assume Chrysler used a simple odometer system for part#s).

The casting numbers were never listed in the parts manuals, so the conclusion is not as clear as that.

The 19xx xxx parts numbers appeared with the 1958 models (some body mouldings for the 1958 Imperial, for example, started at 1900 308).
It's a common misconception to think that the 2nd digit refered to the model year, when in fact, it was a simple odometer system, like you stated.
The 1955-1958 parts manual (january 1961 issue) lists references up to 1981 815. Of course, some of them were parts renumbered, but a lot of them were there from the start.

As of proximity of references, the 1959 parts manual list around 1947 102 contains mainly the radiator fan area, crankshaft, chain case ... Nothing related to intake.
But, again, it's normal since casting numbers were different than part numbers, and not listed in parts manual.




(1947xx.png)



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fury fan
Posted 2022-10-27 10:25 AM (#625180 - in reply to #324908)
Subject: Re: 1958 Fuel Injected Mopars


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Thanks for that info.

If I'm understanding that picture correctly, there are 4 notable gaps in published part#s with about 300 part# missing - meaning, not available for purchase.

Those could be sub-component assemblies used for assy line manufacture, that would not be sold to a customer in that assembled state (like wheel + valve stem + tire + air + balancing + lugnuts).
And it would also include parts that didn't make it to production, for a variety of reasons.

Out of curiousity - are any of the 300D's EFI parts in the parts catalog? I wonder if those were intentionally not published in order to keep that system under some sort of engineering/factory control.
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fury fan
Posted 2022-10-27 10:37 AM (#625181 - in reply to #625163)
Subject: Re: 1958 Fuel Injected Mopars


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Powerflite - 2022-10-26 5:17 PM

I suspect that those holes were used for early testing of EGR systems, not fuel injection. It would need to have a machined face to be used for fuel injection, and there's no reason for them to have made a second EFI manifold when they already had one to use for that purpose.



As EGR was an emissions thing, and not introduced until '74 or so, would they really have been testing that 15 years earlier? PVC valves weren't even widespread yet, and that's much simpler, requires no engine response/tuning like EGR does.

I don't think it would've needed a machined face, the injectors on the twin-2 setups shown above are threaded in place, and those threads would merely need a sealer of some sort (or maybe they have a gasket to the cast-in boss, it's hard to tell). This manifold is the same principle, but with smaller holes. Regardless, I have adapter fittings that seal modern injectors on their O-rings, just needs thread sealer on them to seal against engine vacuum.

Yes, no reason to make a 2nd B-engine manifold - unless it was for cost reduction like I was told?
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christine-lover
Posted 2022-10-28 5:46 PM (#625244 - in reply to #324908)
Subject: Re: 1958 Fuel Injected Mopars



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Very interesting. It looks like the area to bolt the choke has been voided with a boss, is that correct? Companies did test and build things that they never wanted the public to see. Perhaps this was another experiment at fuel injection, this time a bit simpler with one throttle body. Not related to Chrysler Corp though, even in their final years, Packard made a prototype fuel injection for their V8 which exist in a private collection. Reason I mention this is because they never mentioned they were working on it to the public and it escaped and was not destroyed. It wouldn’t be surprising that companies work on things that they never had planned and announced to put out in the foreseeable future.
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jwheath68
Posted 2022-10-28 5:56 PM (#625245 - in reply to #324908)
Subject: Re: 1958 Fuel Injected Mopars


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The size of the threaded ports does remind me of the Ford Thermactor system (1965) the right size for air/vacuum lines, but their location was in the head itself right under the valve cover, quite the mystery.
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fury fan
Posted 2022-10-28 6:45 PM (#625248 - in reply to #625244)
Subject: Re: 1958 Fuel Injected Mopars


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christine-lover - 2022-10-28 5:46 PM

Very interesting. It looks like the area to bolt the choke has been voided with a boss, is that correct? Companies did test and build things that they never wanted the public to see. Perhaps this was another experiment at fuel injection, this time a bit simpler with one throttle body. Not related to Chrysler Corp though, even in their final years, Packard made a prototype fuel injection for their V8 which exist in a private collection. Reason I mention this is because they never mentioned they were working on it to the public and it escaped and was not destroyed. It wouldn’t be surprising that companies work on things that they never had planned and announced to put out in the foreseeable future.


Yes, there is something that resembles a divorced choke, and it has passages that are open to the heat crossover ports in the cylinder heads. (both sides of intake have crossover openings)
I find them curious, as modern port EFI typically does not use heat crossover, as it is not required. But with the less-sophisticated capability of the electronics, perhaps heat was still required for warmup.

As for experimental stuff escaping - at work I saw 2 LS-based GM V-10 engines around 2010 but they stayed in storage.
That program was aborted, so the engines were to be scrapped, but I heard strong rumor that one (or both) was 'rescued' out the back door.
5-ish years later there were some internet reports of GM V10 engines out in public hands.
It happens.
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christine-lover
Posted 2022-10-28 7:45 PM (#625250 - in reply to #625244)
Subject: Re: 1958 Fuel Injected Mopars



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If it has a heat crossover than I would doubt FI application. The production one had no heat crossover. I used to have an NOS right side exhaust manifold for a B block. You can see photos in the past posts on this thread. I sold it in 2018. This was same as a dual quad manifold except no provision for heat valve, but the 58 FI cars had the same port in the manifold that went to a tube for the cold/warm sensor (similar to choke tube).

I talked to a guy at Hershey a couple years ago who worked for GM but had recently retired, after mentioning to him that I was a GM tech, he told me 1 or 2 Suburbans had a larger engine installed for testing, big wigs at GM, I forgot if it was V10 or V12 though.
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fury fan
Posted 2022-10-28 8:01 PM (#625251 - in reply to #324908)
Subject: Re: 1958 Fuel Injected Mopars


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Yeah, saw the non-crossover exh manifold pictures, that was new info to me. And would make sense, as that is just elimination of a machining operation and some parts.

The most-common reports of the system issues were the electronics capability and/or relating to EMI from street lighting.
But I don't think we can rule out that there may have been other drivability issues, and that maybe they thought heated air might help solve it in the next iteration?
I'm making guesses with my 2022 knowledge about 1957-1958, without being able to know what they did (or did not) know.

Maybe it was a special casting for a WCFB and the tapped holes are for nitrous oxide. Did they have NOS back then??? :-)

Anyhow, it's all just speculation. Still really hoping to find someone that actually has seen it before, and knows what this manifold is.
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57burb
Posted 2022-10-28 8:42 PM (#625252 - in reply to #625251)
Subject: Re: 1958 Fuel Injected Mopars



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Maybe it's Mopar's attempt at something like this..?

https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/hrdp-1009-what-ever-happened-to-sm...
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fury fan
Posted 2022-10-28 8:51 PM (#625253 - in reply to #625252)
Subject: Re: 1958 Fuel Injected Mopars


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Ah, yes, the homogenizer from years ago.
Thanks for that link, gonna read that a few times.
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Powerflite
Posted 2022-10-28 10:34 PM (#625257 - in reply to #625253)
Subject: Re: 1958 Fuel Injected Mopars



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I hadn't heard of the homogenizer before, but it makes sense in principle. Much of the energy from combustion exits into the exhaust and water. If you can use that heat to expand the incoming gases, then you can effectively create extra pressure in the combustion chamber out of waste heat. The part about controlling the burn rate of hydrogen at super elevated temperatures makes it sound like the hydrogen is turning into a plasma before/as it burns. Interesting stuff.
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NicksGarage
Posted 2022-10-29 2:24 PM (#625261 - in reply to #625097)
Subject: Re: 1958 Fuel Injected Mopars



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fury fan - 2022-10-24 6:18 PM

1959 EFI manifold?




Can you share a picture of the bottom of the manifold? Has anyone seen a regular manifold with those flattened runners where the holes are drilled?
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fury fan
Posted 2022-10-30 11:37 AM (#625266 - in reply to #625261)
Subject: Re: 1958 Fuel Injected Mopars


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Here you go.
You can't tell it from the pics, but the runner does taper down to the cyl head as normal.
Meaning, there are more threads nearer the outer edge of the manifold.

1 runner has a Bosch injector in it, the other is open. The shiny circles seen vs the cast iron are the injector adapters I had made.



Edited by fury fan 2022-10-30 11:56 AM




(PXL_20221030_154453092.jpg)



(PXL_20221030_154610842.jpg)



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Attachments PXL_20221030_154453092.jpg (395KB - 83 downloads)
Attachments PXL_20221030_154610842.jpg (282KB - 85 downloads)
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LostDeere59
Posted 2022-11-07 3:43 PM (#625427 - in reply to #324908)
Subject: RE: 1958 Fuel Injected Mopars



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I'm surprised no one has commented about the 9th hole - the one in the drivers side of the exhaust crossover passage. It appears to be the same size as the ones in the intake, and I'm guessing that it is also threaded as the others are. While I agree that a port style fuel injection manifold would be unlikely to have the exhaust crossover intact, I find it curious that not only is the crossover present (even though the choke heater pad was abbreviated) but obviously there was some ultimate reason to leave it in place as the exhaust was clearly being directed somewhere outside of the intake itself.

Perhaps this was a test manifold, used to allow monitoring of temperatures at each intake port and in the crossover? Remember, our understanding of internal engine dynamics is exponentially greater than it was back then - the ability to read temps in the intake runners would have been cutting edge science at the time.

I also have to wonder if this might be a manifold designed for some type of propane system. Propane was very common on agricultural equipment at the time, and its relatively low cost and availability might have led Chrysler to consider a propane fuel option. Given that they already had some experience with port fuel injection, perhaps they were considering a similar set up for propane. The use of an off the shelf carburetor throttle body would be in keeping with the economy aim of such a project, and that single exhaust fitting might have been the connection to some kind of cold start enrichment/warm up regulator, as normal choke operation isn't effective with propane.

Your installation of the modern Bosch injectors is very cool, but I have to wonder about one thing - the pintle of those injectors seems very deep in the bores. I would be concerned that the relatively wide spray pattern of the Bosch injector would impinge on the side of the bore and lead to extreme puddling and basically uncontrollable fuel mixture . . .

Gregg


Edited by LostDeere59 2022-11-07 3:47 PM
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fury fan
Posted 2022-11-07 10:14 PM (#625436 - in reply to #324908)
Subject: Re: 1958 Fuel Injected Mopars


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Posts: 10

Yes, I've wondered about that hole and the crossover passage also.
Although - exhaust-heated air would surely help in warmup in cold climate, rather than just dumping more fuel. I have wondered if that was a learning item from the prior-year's configuration.

Propane is an interesting thought also. I don't have much knowledge of that to consider it any deeper.

Keen eye on the injector depth. I have considered that, and there are various spray patterns available in Bosch-type injectors. If I ever get this thing onto an engine, I'll be looking for a set of pencil-spray injectors.
Aside from the adapter fittings, the shot to the intake valve (which most EFI literature says the injector sprays upon the 'hot' intake valve) is quite a distance and around a corner from the injector - so it's a compromise for sure.





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Attachments injector spray types.jfif (8KB - 86 downloads)
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mstrug
Posted 2023-11-04 11:49 AM (#632587 - in reply to #324908)
Subject: Re: 1958 Fuel Injected Mopars



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Location: Newark, Texas (Fort Worth)
Still looking for an intake manifold. Got these from Danny: (the one on the computer) Repros from Missouri.

Edited by mstrug 2023-11-04 11:57 AM




(electrojectorsmalleremblempicwithrepro1.jpg)



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