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Elite Veteran
Posts: 982
  
Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | .....................
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Hi all,
I've just bought an incomplete 413 engine ( from a fellow Forwardlooker forum member here in Australia ) for a re-builder and wondering if you guys could ID the casting numbers for me and any other details.
Very rare engine to find here way down under in Australia so I just can't go to the local MOPAR dealer ( we don't have any anymore : ( , and ask for ID info.
I suspect the parts are a conglomeration of parts from a few engines and not original to the block.
I have some photos but have to wait for my 17 year old son to do the techno mumbo jumbo to get 'em on the forum for me.
No 1:-
The block's casting number is 2205697-3 and the letters R and L underneath this number . The casting date is 12 10 62 .On the pad at the front of the engine where the engine number should be, it only has " T 41 ' and " 1-3 " stamped there. No other numbers stamped here.
From what I can find on the net this is a 413 block cast on December 10th 1962 and stamped as a 1963 engine ?
It also has AAQA and DCPD logo cast into the front of the engine at the no 1 area of the block.
No 2 :-
Heads are cast 21285213 on No 2 intake runner .This number isn't on every casting ID site that I've looked at but is listed on a couple that says these are 1960 300F 413 heads with 2.08 intake valves. They do have a cast date but I can't quite read it until I remove the rocker shaft.The heads are still on the block but from eyesight looking up the bore they look more like around 1.94 intake valves to me.
No 3 :-
The crank looks forged with machining marks on the throws, just doesn't look cast to me. I can't find any numbers stamped in it except a capitol " B" stamped into one of the throws.It's an 8 bolt threaded
crank.
I haven't measured the stroke as yet or the journal sizes but looks like a longish stroke by eye.
Any way to ID the crank?
No 4:-
Intake manifold is cast 220600 and cast date J-24 and has DCPD logo. It's a 4 barrel cast iron squarebore and from what I can find it's a 1966 440 intake ?
Any info ?
No 5:-
I have one exhaust manifold only that came with the engine and is cast 2463107 1, dunno what it's from ?
No 6 :-
Water pump housing is cast 1859251 with a 3 underneath the "1 " , DCPD logo D-48 date . Any idea what it's off ?
No 7 :-
I only have 5 x pistons and rods that came with the motor so will be looking for another 3 rods in time from somewhere. The pistons measure approx ( with a cheap set of Vernier Calipers ) 4.154 inch ( 105.52 mm ) so I'd say they are the original 413 pistons/rods. I forgot to get the rod numbers
No 8 :-
Distributor is an IBP 400 C and serial number 1889564 Auto Lite. Ideas as to what it's from ??
No 9 :-
Transmission.
Cast iron with casting number 1736413 1 and has DCPD logo and has serial number 1736544 K and then some other numbers 0 ( or maybe a backwards facing letter "C" ?? ) and 4539 ( so that's 04539 or backwards facing C4539 .
Any ideas as to what it was from originally and whether it's a P flite or T flite ??
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I want to rebuild this engine/trans to eventually replace the 326 / P flite in my '59 Dodge Coronet to tow with. ( I'll be keeping the original 326/Powerflite ) and will be needing to confirm what I have here already and what I still need to get.
I'll need a bellhousing and torque converter to mate the 413 to the trans, any idea where to find ( me thinks John at BIG M might get me these ? )
nd a call to John
I'm new to MOPARS hence these ID questions.I have already found some info but as to how accurate that info is......... I don't know so I'm handing over to you experts here.
Any constructive help appreciated,
Cheers,
Terry.
Oh,
One more thing,
It's Dec 21st here and the day has nearly ended and destruction hasn't happened yet.
I'd say the Doomsdayers predicting the apocalyptic end of the world today were wrong once again !!!
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Expert
Posts: 2290
Location: Eastern Iowa | The block is from a run of the mill '63 Chrysler hence the letter code "T"
Should e very rebuildable if Ya have the $$$
I did one .060 over years ao that runs great.
Dave S. |
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Expert
Posts: 1740
Location: Alaska | The standard bore IIRC for a 413 is 4.1875, so not sure what you measure of 4.154 is. Maybe your calipers are off but it's a good thing if your block is still standard bore, plenty of room to over bore. I have heard pistons are getting hard to come by and expensive for this engine. |
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Expert
Posts: 1506
Location: Colo Spgs | Terry
Looks as if your "ID"ing" is make progress quick.
If you find out you need another Cam Shaft - The Hughs # HEH 1019 BL is very close to the original 413's OEM 340 HP/ 470 Pounds of Torque Spec's
and NAPA's # CS 327 is The 365 HP 1966 Twin Snorkel-Dual Exhaust used in 1966 440's. I like the NAPA # CS 327 because it is also close to the same
spec's as the Cross Ram 413 Cam Spec's --- just Hydralic instead of solid.
Other than not using the 383's bore ( now called an 426 RB ) or the 440 bore it is all the same parts as these two engines.
I have an 1962 413 in my 1962 Imperial. For Heads I first swapped to the 383/ 440 "906's" and now I have the 1977 400/ 440
"454's". My Cam Shaft is now NAPA's CS 327.
Rodger & Gabby
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Expert
Posts: 3780
Location: NorCal |
No. 1
1 3 is the build date January 3, 1963. Remember, the '63 model year started in Sept. of '62.
No. 2
The "521" heads were common to many '60 engines including the 361 and 383 along with the 300F.
No. 3
If it's an 8-bolt threaded crank, it's either a pre-'62 that has been tapped or a later Hemi/Industrial crasnk...the diference is how far it extends from the back of the block. Measure that.
No. 4
220600 was common to all '62-'66 RB engines, I think J is the month code for September.
No. 5
2463107 is common to all '65-'69 big blocks.
No. 6
1859251 was used from '58-'61
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 889
Location: Peoples Republic of Oregon | Faster than measuring the crank flange extension is to look and see if the flange is flat across its face or if it has a raised 'ring' at the center where you would hang a flexplate.
Flat equals early, 'ring' equals late.
Cast replacement 413 pistons are getting expensive, so forgings start looking reasonable. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 982
Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | ..............
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Thanks guys for the help,
Dave, thanks for the block ID, even though it's a standard engine, it should get my Coronet moving along OK, should be a nice torquey engine with the 3.75 stroke. I'm not much of a racer so a standard to mild performance will do me now that I'm heading into my old fart years !!
58 coupe, the calipers I used were cheapie digital ones and I only quickly measured one of the pistons to get a rough size so they may be more closer to the size you mentioned once I have a more accurate measurement done.Thanks for your help.
Rodger, thanks for the cam recommend, where would I find the specs for those two cams and specs for the cross ram cam ? I'm guessing the cross ram cam spec wasn't the same as a standard engine cam spec ?
57 chizler , thanks for Id-ing those parts, I had a feeling the parts I had were a mix from various engines. I'm not an absolute purist so don't need to have all the engine parts to be from matching production years, for me, if it looks like a duck, then it's a duck !!
I'm just happy to have a 413 to re-build over time.
I have seen some affordable 413 standard and oversize pistons for sale on Evilbay but don't know the quality or country of origin. I went the cheap way many years with an engine build using pistons that were made in Mexico, they exploded after 6 weeks normal use.
wayfarer, I had a quick look at the crank today before I headed off to work. It definately has an 8 bolt threaded flange and is flat with no machined section for a flexplate to centre on so I guess that makes it an early crank ?. On the flange, it has a cutout " U " shape on the flange between two of the bolt holes and at 180 deg from that there is a hole between another two threaded bolt holes that is approx 5/8th dia ( only a guess at 5/8th, I didn't measure it )
It also has a brass pilot bush in the end of the crank so it must have done some service in a manual trans at some stage ?
Once again, thanks for the help guys, much appreciated,
I'll get my son to upload some pics tomorrow, that might help a bit more.
Cheers,
Terry.
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Expert
Posts: 3575
Location: Netherlands | Pistons are measured below the pin-height, about halfway down on the skirts.
The rods are the same ones used in 440 engines (except for later "SixPack 440's"), so you can get 3 of these aswell if you want.
In most aspects your 413 is just a smaller bore-version than the later 440's are.
The only differences are the pistons and in this case, the crank, since your 416 is from '62, you have the long flange at the rear of the crank where the convertor bolts onto.
In '63 aluminium Torqueflite transmissions came out, which used a convertor-flexplate between crank and convertor. With that Mopar also changed the cranks in their engines, along with a different starter.
You can use pretty much any bigblock head on your 413.
Besides chamber-size difference, Mopar also changed the rockershaft mounting in the heads. Early heads have seperate pedestals through which the rockershaft goes, later heads have the pedestal cast into the heads.
The rockers and such are the same for all bigblock heads.
Intake valvesize is 2,08"
Exhaust valvesize is 1.60"
All the early bigblock heads, upto and including 1967, are of the closed chamber design. This means the combustion chamber in the head has a flat. Later heads are open chambered and don't have this flat part. The open chamber heads drop the static engine-compression about .5 point.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 982
Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | BigBlockMopar - 2012-12-23 9:09 PM
Pistons are measured below the pin-height, about halfway down on the skirts.
The rods are the same ones used in 440 engines (except for later "SixPack 440's"), so you can get 3 of these aswell if you want.
In most aspects your 413 is just a smaller bore-version than the later 440's are.
The only differences are the pistons and in this case, the crank, since your 416 is from '62, you have the long flange at the rear of the crank where the convertor bolts onto.
In '63 aluminium Torqueflite transmissions came out, which used a convertor-flexplate between crank and convertor. With that Mopar also changed the cranks in their engines, along with a different starter.
You can use pretty much any bigblock head on your 413.
Besides chamber-size difference, Mopar also changed the rockershaft mounting in the heads. Early heads have seperate pedestals through which the rockershaft goes, later heads have the pedestal cast into the heads.
The rockers and such are the same for all bigblock heads.
Intake valvesize is 2,08"
Exhaust valvesize is 1.60"
All the early bigblock heads, upto and including 1967, are of the closed chamber design. This means the combustion chamber in the head has a flat. Later heads are open chambered and don't have this flat part. The open chamber heads drop the static engine-compression about .5 point.
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^^^ Thanks Big Block for the info, you guys are giving me the just the right info that I need , VERY much appreciated as I simply don't know 'what fits what" and 'when they changed this design to that design" , I'm new to MOPAR and just learning all this from scratch.These cars and parts are rare in Australia and subsequently the knowledge and experience is rare also.
I'll pull the heads off the block and see what type rocker pedestals I have in the morning and get some pics loaded up so you guys can confirm what I have so that will lesson some mistakes when it comes to re-build time.
Will also measure valve sizes while I'm at it, they look like 1.94 intakes by eye from looking up the bore ( no pistons/crank in the block ) but they might ?? be 2.08's when I actually measure 'em ????????????????
Cheers,
Terry.
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Expert
Posts: 3575
Location: Netherlands | I made some typo's in my above reply. (416 -> 413)
And '62 was the first year for the aluminium 727 transmission.
But since you mentioned having a crank with 8 threaded holes, that would make it a pre '62 'long-flange' crank. (Which should mate up to your current transmission just fine I think)
You can see the pedestal type by just pulling valvecovers. (which probably have 4-bolts holding them down. Later heads have 6 bolts.)
The intake valves could very well be a size smaller. I was going by head and the 2.08 valves were more common in the mid/late '60s.
Edited by BigBlockMopar 2012-12-23 12:03 PM
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Expert
Posts: 1506
Location: Colo Spgs | Terry And All
The MoPar Factory Service Manuals have The Cam Spec's all listed in Group 9 of every printing. The Chrysler 300 2-4 bbl 413's are all OEM Solid Lifter Units.
The 1966 OEM Factory 440 ( rated at only 365 HP ) High Performance Cam Shaft is Hydralic and so is NAPA's #CS 327 Cam Shaft. Now you can see why
Chrysler 300 Club Members lean toward this Cam Shaft ( It has loads of low to Mid Range Performance whick is where most of all diving is done at ).
Yes the 300's with solid lifter units had a longer duration than "regular" 413's with the hydralic units. Hydralic Lifters and the related parts was still a
"new item" then. The Tech know-how was still fresh in how not to have the new Hydralic Units loosing their composure past 5,000 RPM's.
From the first 413's in the 1959 year to the end of the 1965 year you can look at all The OEM Cam Spec's used as they were learning the differance
from lab thoughts to real experience when appied to the vehicle on the Hwy's.
From 1999 to 2007 I drove a 1963 TY1-H with the 413. The Heads were swapped for the newer "906's" and I used this NAPA #CS 327 Cam Shaft. To me
this was an Retro Fit since MoPar later did this and it was OK in my mind. Once warmed, I could very quickly apply full throttle while idling and it would not
stumble. At an Free Way Speed 18 MPG was my average.
Terry - No need to remove the Heads. If you see the Valve Tappet Covers have four attaching bolts with The Spark Plug Looms being held by the same two
lower bolts: then you have one of the first series Heads. If The Valve Covers have six bolts and The Spark Plug Looms are Spot Welded - you have what
first was used in Chrysler's Marine Division and then later used with Auto's and Truck's.
Rodger & Gabby
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 982
Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | ....................
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Thanks once again Big Block and Rodger for the input. Just had a look and the heads are the four bolt tappet covers and the rocker shaft's have Aluminum pedestals so that confirms early heads then.
I've got to ID my trans that came with the 413 as well, it doesn't appear to have trans fluid cooler connections (that run to the radiator bottom tank ) on it anywhere. It's a cast iron trans with handbrake drum on the end. Didn't come with a bellhousing to bolt to the 413 nor did it come with a torque convertor so they will be two parts at least I will have to try and find somewhere ??.
My '59 Coronet is currently running the 326 poly an Powerflite so can't use that bellhousing.
I have the factory service manual here for '58 and '59 and factory parts manual as well so will dig into the pages in section 9 later and have a look at the cam specs.
I'll see if I have time to pull one of the heads today before I head to work and see what valve sizes they are.
Anyway,
It's Xmas eve here down under and I've gotta do me chores first and wrap Crissy presents or I'll be in the s#*t with the wife when she gets home !!!
Cheers,
Terry.
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Expert
Posts: 1506
Location: Colo Spgs | Terry
Cam Spes's for The 413's is in ever year of Chrysler FSM from 1959 through 1965. As you know it was several years after 1959
that any Dodge recieved The 413's.
With any home tool set it is possible to swap the Crank Shaft of a 1959 - 1961 Extented First series Unit to any 1962 - 1978 RB.
Or it can be done also in the reverse manner. This how it makes it possible to have a newer engine bolted to an older cast iron
Automatic.
The Cast Iron Automatic Transmission ( which weighs the same as a contractor's Bag of Cement ) of The 1959 Dodge is mostly
the same with every engine used in the complete MoPar Inventory. All they did is change The Bolted On Bell Housing.
Rodger & Gabby
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 982
Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | ...................
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Thanks Rodger,
The engine re-build will be easy for me as I was a car mechanic for 8 yrs up to 1989, it's mainly that I need to get to know the MOPAR engine family and all the what fits what and when it changed stuff that is a bit confusing though I'm more in the know now than I was a few days ago thanks to you guys. I can do Chevy and Holden V8 engine re-builds in my sleep so-to-speak. I'm sure MOPAR will only be a progression once I get the hang of it.
Yep, the cast iron trans are pretty heavy 'eh. I have a feeling that my trans is the early one that had the cooling fins on the torque converter as there are no fittings on the trans for external cooling lines to the radiator.I don't have the orig torque converter and bellhousing that this trans had so it's only a guess that it's the earlier type trans.
There is what appear to be oil pressure plugs fitted on the drivers side near where the shift cable fits. I wish I'd got photos to show but xmas gift wrapping and the need to head off to work got in the way.
Cheers,
Terry
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 889
Location: Peoples Republic of Oregon | Terry, if you are in need of a new camshaft, check Crowers web site for their 'close-out' specials. You may find something that fits your needs at an incredibly low price. http://www.crower.com/camshafts.html?cat=98&price=1%2C100 |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 982
Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia |
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Thanks wayfarer, I did visit Crowers site when I found those on sale cams. I sent them an email for shipping to Australia but was referred back to their website which was no help as I couldn't find any shipping info. They also said one of those cam part numbers was a "bad number " .
Me thinks I'll have to actually ring them to get the info I need.
Cheers,
Terry.
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Location: North Australia | Hello Terry, I am in the last stages of rebuilding my 413, so I will pass on some of the things I learnt,
If you need pistons, you will probably be best to look to Egge Machine company for replacements. I was told by a seller when I tried to order some .030" over pistons (from Ebay) that sealed power (Federal Mogul) have discontinued making 413 pistons. I tried multiple sellers all with the same result, no .030" in stock. If this is true then the sellers advertising are selling off stock. Egge also had no 30 overs in stock, but went out of their way to speed production to get a set to me. Well done to Egge. I am thinking Egge are the only outfit making off the shelf pistons for this engine now. Took 10 weeks from when I decided to order to actually making an order.
The Egge pistons looked good, very similar to the originals, although one piston was 001" under the other 7. I had the engine balance checked, and the pistons were pretty much a matched set.
If you look on the on-line imperial site in the parts for sale section, some one is selling a set of 30 over sealed power pistons and rings now for $375 or so.
Be aware of the Cloyes timing chain/sprocket kits. No slur on the product BUT this was a big problem for me. There was a number (or something) cast onto the inside of the cam sprocket. This hit the block casting twice every rev and caused a bad knock. This resulted in me stripping the engine totally to figure out what the hell was going on. Turned out to be a (expensive!) blessing in disguise as the engine had the original steel shim head gaskets which had nearly corroded between the water jackets and combustion chambers.
I don't have anything to compare to but I think the block casting behind the cam sprocket differs from later engines. The timing chain was streached badly from this experisnce and I am waiting for a replacement now.
There are two types of main bearings for the RB's. I think the change is from '74?
I have some part numbers and such written down if you need them. Also I will post costs e.t.c. if you want to make some comparisons.
Steve.
Steve.
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Location: North Australia | Oh, yeah, she'll have a rope type rear main as well.
I believe my engine and box are original (60 Imp delivered Nov 59) my box looks zackery like this one on page 4.
http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Lit/Master/140/index.htm
The oil cooler ports are the two bosses on the left side, front of the box the top port being almost inline with the horizontal centreline of the box,
Steve. |
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Expert
Posts: 3575
Location: Netherlands | If you decide to go with a dual-link chain timing-set you better grind the block casting smooth right behind the cam sprocket. The wider chain (pins) will/can possibly rub the block's casting 'dimples'.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 982
Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | Thanks Steve,
Any 413 info I can get is appreciated either via a PM or on the forum.
I have found these pistons on Evilbay
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chrysler-Dodge-V8-Piston-Set-1959-79-413-/3...
and these ones
http://www.ebay.com/itm/8-Coated-Pistons-Rings-63-64-65-Chrysler-Do...
But I have no idea of their quality or country of origin ??.
I think the last link might be Kanters which if so, they don't seem to have a good customer feedback on the forum.
I did find the pistons on the imperial site so I may get in contact with them to see if they would ship to Australia as I find that a lot of US sellers won't ship international.
Once again, thanks for the help,
Cheers,
Terry
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 982
Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | 60 Imp - 2012-12-26 11:47 AM
Oh, yeah, she'll have a rope type rear main as well.
I believe my engine and box are original (60 Imp delivered Nov 59 ) my box looks zackery like this one on page 4.
http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Lit/Master/140/index.htm
The oil cooler ports are the two bosses on the left side, front of the box the top port being almost inline with the horizontal centreline of the box,
Steve.
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Yep,
I have a badly corroded ( from sitting in water ) Aluminum rear oil seal retainer that still has half of the rope seal in it ( I'll be needing another un-corroded one ).
Seen one somewhere ?? on Evilbay the other day.
From what I've been able to find, my box might ?? be an air cooled torque convertor type as it doesn't have any cooling line fittings at all though it does have two plugs in the area/ports where the cooling line fittings might go ? I'm just wondering if they are pressure test ports only or are actually ports for cooling lines, or both ??.
I'm gonna lassoo my 17 yr old son tomorrow and drag him away from his I-phone thingo and get him to upload some photos here in the trans section of the forum to see if someone can ID my trans to an exact model car it came from originally.
Thanks,
Terry.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 982
Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | BigBlockMopar - 2012-12-27 7:12 AM
If you decide to go with a dual-link chain timing-set you better grind the block casting smooth right behind the cam sprocket. The wider chain (pins) will/can possibly rub the block's casting 'dimples'.
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Thanks Big Block, VERY good advice there, I'll write that one down in my checklist and underline in red as I will probably go with a two row timing chain when I get to that point.
Thanks,
Terry.
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Location: North Australia | Terry, take a look at the link below. Has info on some piston manufacturers,
http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/2011/05/01/hmn_tips3.html |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 889
Location: Peoples Republic of Oregon | Terry, I checked my cam inventory and found a couple of nos oem cams. Original application to the hot-rod 383 and 440 in late 60's if this might be of interest, also I'd be happy to be the go-between if you want one of the Crower pieces.
Also, I can provide forged pistons from AutoTec (www.racetecpistons.com) at pretty competetative pricing...no, not at cast pricing, but good for forgings.
Send an email if you want to chat... hemi.parts@yahoo.com
Gary |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 982
Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia |
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I've FINALLY managed to drag my screenage sons head away from his I-phone thingy and got some photos done. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 982
Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | http://s1286.beta.photobucket.com/user/BRADY_HQ74/library/?
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We/he had trouble uploading 'cos each photie was too big of a file thingy because they were over blah,blah,blah size whatever's and wouldn't submit ( nor would I ) so we/he put it into a photobuggerit album thingo what ever it's called.
He/we had to make up a new photo thing account so hope it works.
If someone can weave some magic and stick the photies from the bucket photo thingo on to here then I can fill in the blanks between the photos........ I think .................. 
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No 1:- Top pic is my gearbox numbers. I have no idea what this gearbox came from or whether is Torqueflite or Powerflite ( supposed to be a Torqueflite ) so if someone can ID it for me that would be great.
No 2 pic :- Next pic is my Dodge and a 1977 HX Holden on my car hoist in my very messy shed.
No 3:- Next is my 413 with the heads on.
No 4 :- Next is the flange on my 8 bolt crank, so this means this is the early crank ( pre 62 ?? ) ??
No 5 :- Next is same crank showing the end flange.
No 6 :- Next is front shot of the unidentified trans.
No 7 :- Passenger side view , same trans.
No 8 :- Same shot but a bit closer.
No 9 :- Next is drivers side same trans showing shift adaptor, what's this from ??? I don't think it's the same as on my '59 Dodge?You can also see the two plugs in the housing which I assume ?? that can be unscrewed and an adaptor can be fitted to both for cooling lines to Radiator ? Yes/ No ??
No 10 :- Next is same side ( drivers ) from a bit further away.
No 11 and 12 :- Next two pics are casting numbers from the 413.Can't remember from which side ?
No 13 :- Next is casting letters on no 1 cylinder part of block, no idea what they are supposed to mean ?
No 14 :- Next is numbers on pad at front of engine, can't see any actual engine numbers here or anywhere else on the block. Did they have any engine numbers and if so where to look ??
No 15 :- Next is other side of block casting number and casting date.
No 16 and 17 :- Last two pics are just double ups from previous pics.
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 413_Pict_1.JPG (103KB - 241 downloads)
413_Pict_2.JPG (123KB - 234 downloads)
413_Pict_3.JPG (120KB - 379 downloads)
413_Pict_4.JPG (79KB - 299 downloads)
413_Pict_5.JPG (90KB - 226 downloads)
413_Pict_6.JPG (98KB - 229 downloads)
413_Pict_7.JPG (113KB - 219 downloads)
413_Pict_8.JPG (119KB - 216 downloads)
413_Pict_9.JPG (78KB - 215 downloads)
413_Pict_10.JPG (105KB - 237 downloads)
413_Pict_11.JPG (132KB - 196 downloads)
413_Pict_12.JPG (80KB - 261 downloads)
413_Pict_13.JPG (124KB - 205 downloads)
413_Pict_14.JPG (92KB - 230 downloads)
413_Pict_15.JPG (94KB - 235 downloads)
413_Pict_16.JPG (136KB - 279 downloads)
413_Pict_15.JPG (94KB - 245 downloads)
413_Pict_6.JPG (98KB - 224 downloads)
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 982
Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | VAN HELSING - 2012-12-28 1:05 PM
http://s1286.beta.photobucket.com/user/BRADY_HQ74/library/?
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We/he had trouble uploading 'cos each photie was too big of a file thingy because they were over blah,blah,blah size whatever's and wouldn't submit ( nor would I ) so we/he put it into a photobuggerit album thingo what ever it's called.
He/we had to make up a new photo thing account so hope it works.
If someone can weave some magic and stick the photies from the bucket photo thingo on to here then I can fill in the blanks between the photos........ I think ..................
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Thanks to Desotohead ( Hank ) the pics are now up.
My edit button is non existant for some reason so I'll have to ID the pics here.
Pics are above in order from the top down are:-
No 1:- Top pic is my gearbox numbers. I have no idea what this gearbox came from or whether is Torqueflite or Powerflite ( supposed to be a Torqueflite ) so if someone can ID it for me that would be great.
No 2 pic :- Next pic is my Dodge and a 1977 HX Holden on my car hoist in my very messy shed.
No 3:- Next is my 413 with the heads on.
No 4 :- Next is the flange on my 8 bolt crank, so this means this is the early crank ( pre 62 ?? ) ??
No 5 :- Next is same crank showing the end flange.
No 6 :- Next is front shot of the unidentified trans.
No 7 :- Passenger side view , same trans.
No 8 :- Same shot but a bit closer.
No 9 :- Next is drivers side same trans showing shift adaptor, what's this from ??? I don't think it's the same as on my '59 Dodge?You can also see the two plugs in the housing which I assume ?? that can be unscrewed and an adaptor can be fitted to both for cooling lines to Radiator ? Yes/ No ??
No 10 :- Next is same side ( drivers ) from a bit further away.
No 11 and 12 :- Next two pics are casting numbers from the 413.Can't remember from which side ?
No 13 :- Next is casting letters on no 1 cylinder part of block, no idea what they are supposed to mean ?
No 14 :- Next is numbers on pad at front of engine, can't see any actual engine numbers here or anywhere else on the block. Did they have any engine numbers and if so where to look ??
No 15 :- Next is other side of block casting number and casting date.
No 16 and 17 :- Last two pics are just double ups from previous pics.
Any help appreciated in I.D ing what I have,
Cheers,
Terry.
Edited by VAN HELSING 2012-12-29 3:40 AM
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 390
Location: Brisbane | Terry the transmission is an early american torqueflight probably air cooled as the ports are blocked. As far as I know you can run trans cooler lines to them and run a standard oil cooled t/c. The Australian torqueflight have a casting for the shifter mechanism in them and are not a bolt on unit like this one |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 982
Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | coupeman - 2012-12-29 8:08 PM
Terry the transmission is an early american torqueflight probably air cooled as the ports are blocked. As far as I know you can run trans cooler lines to them and run a standard oil cooled t/c. The Australian torqueflight have a casting for the shifter mechanism in them and are not a bolt on unit like this one
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Thanks D,
I couldn't remember exactly all you told me about the trans, I sorta remembered some of it but not all . Here's hoping someone can ID the car it came from originally.
Cheers
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 916
Location: Pau, S-W France | 1736 544 is the Torqueflite used in 1957 S25-26 (DeSoto Firedome & Fireflite) and C-75-1 & C-75-2 (1957 Chrysler Windsor & Saratoga)
But only after serial engine # :
S25 : 19551
S26: 13731
C75: L57-7088 (US built) or 2441C (Canada built)
Before, these models used 1671747 transmission.
These transmission are air cooled. You can't used them as water cooled as the upper plug isn't drilled (see fittings for water line below) !!
Edited by Phil_the_frenchie 2014-03-04 2:38 PM
 (P1130599 [fili1000].JPG)
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P1130599 [fili1000].JPG (232KB - 638 downloads)
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8445
Location: Perth Australia | Nice sized garage Terry, might be time for a garage sale though, or worse, the "close your eyes and start throwing" clean out 
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 982
Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | ttotired - 2014-03-05 10:39 AM
Nice sized garage Terry, might be time for a garage sale though, or worse, the "close your eyes and start throwing" clean out
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Yeah Mick I know what you mean, and that pic was taken a while back, I've accumulated a lot more sh#t since then so it'way worse now, It'll probably take me falling and breaking a leg or something before I learn to do something about it !!
My wife hates my shed ( and I hate her going in it ) just because she's "embarrassed "about the mess ( her words ) but I know exactly where everything is...........
............. within'12 foot or so anyway
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 982
Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | Phil_the_frenchie - 2014-03-05 6:27 AM
1736 544 is the Torqueflite used in 1957 S25-26 (DeSoto Firedome & Fireflite) and C-75-1 & C-75-2 (1957 Chrysler Windsor & Saratoga)
But only after serial engine # :
S25 : 19551
S26: 13731
C75: L57-7088 (US built) or 2441C (Canada built)
Before, these models used 1671747 transmission.
These transmission are air cooled. You can't used them as water cooled as the upper plug isn't drilled (see fittings for water line below) !!
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Ok, so now thanks to Phil I now know I have an air cooled early '57 Torqueflite which is convertorless amd bellhousingless because the seller didn't have them.
So, unless I can find a air cooled big block bellhousing ( do they exist ?? ) AND and air cooled torque convertor I've basically bought myself an expensive boat anchor 
OR..................
In pic number 10 down you can see a boss cast into the trans boss just above the top plug .
Now, I'm wondering whether Chrysler had that there in the beginning just in case the air cooled convertor idea didn't work ??? and then they could drill and tap that boss for water cooling lines like in the trans in Phils pic ??
Does this idea have merit ??
I unscrewed that top plug on my trans, fluid came out, unscrewed the bottom plug, nothing came out, inserted a thin screwdriver which went in 3 inch till it touched something.
Now, if that top boss drill and tap for cooling line idea won't work, there are other plugs which I assume to be pressure test point plugs ??
Any of these tapable for a cooling line does anyone know?
There's one on the opposite side at rear of the iron trans body which I assume is a rear pump test point, wonder if that could be the second line to use for cooling?
Think I'll have to find an hydraulic schematic diagram and factory manual to get some answers unless someone here has been down this same road?
I have a feeling there was discussion on this before here somewhere but can't find it.......
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 916
Location: Pau, S-W France | VAN HELSING - 2014-03-05 6:42 AM
In pic number 10 down you can see a boss cast into the trans boss just above the top plug .
Now, I'm wondering whether Chrysler had that there in the beginning just in case the air cooled convertor idea didn't work ??? and then they could drill and tap that boss for water cooling lines like in the trans in Phils pic ??
Does this idea have merit ??
I unscrewed that top plug on my trans, fluid came out, unscrewed the bottom plug, nothing came out, inserted a thin screwdriver which went in 3 inch till it touched something.
Now, if that top boss drill and tap for cooling line idea won't work, there are other plugs which I assume to be pressure test point plugs ??
Any of these tapable for a cooling line does anyone know?
There's one on the opposite side at rear of the iron trans body which I assume is a rear pump test point, wonder if that could be the second line to use for cooling?
Think I'll have to find an hydraulic schematic diagram and factory manual to get some answers unless someone here has been down this same road?
I have a feeling there was discussion on this before here somewhere but can't find it.......
...
I'll try to make and upload some pics next days because i've a bare transmission housing and i can test plugs or pressure holes.
Maybe i'll put them in the message you write in the transmission section |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 982
Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | Phil_the_frenchie - 2014-03-05 10:09 PM
VAN HELSING - 2014-03-05 6:42 AM
In pic number 10 down you can see a boss cast into the trans boss just above the top plug .
Now, I'm wondering whether Chrysler had that there in the beginning just in case the air cooled convertor idea didn't work ??? and then they could drill and tap that boss for water cooling lines like in the trans in Phils pic ??
Does this idea have merit ??
I unscrewed that top plug on my trans, fluid came out, unscrewed the bottom plug, nothing came out, inserted a thin screwdriver which went in 3 inch till it touched something.
Now, if that top boss drill and tap for cooling line idea won't work, there are other plugs which I assume to be pressure test point plugs ??
Any of these tapable for a cooling line does anyone know?
There's one on the opposite side at rear of the iron trans body which I assume is a rear pump test point, wonder if that could be the second line to use for cooling?
Think I'll have to find an hydraulic schematic diagram and factory manual to get some answers unless someone here has been down this same road?
I have a feeling there was discussion on this before here somewhere but can't find it.......
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I'll try to make and upload some pics next days because i've a bare transmission housing and i can test plugs or pressure holes.
Maybe i'll put them in the message you write in the transmission section
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That would be great Phil, post it either here or in the trans section.
It would be great if these two plugs offer a port for cooling lines
OR
If one of these plugs offer an out line and another of the plugs on the other side of the trans offers a return line that would be just as good and might even put a smile on the faces of other air cooled trans owners knowing if they wish they can water cool their trans in addition to air cool if they wish to do it.
Thanks for all the help so far Phil , much appreciated.
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Veteran
Posts: 242
Location: 33844 | I asked this same question in the trans section. The lower of the 2 cooling ports is the lube pressure , and the upper port (missing on the air-cooled trans) is the lube supply. So there must be an internal passage between the 2 ports. |
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Veteran
Posts: 242
Location: 33844 | More about those ports --- strange that my old Chilton and Motors tech books show the ports but do not show or explain any cooling lines !!?? |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 982
Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | .......
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Rich,
This Powerflite on evilbay
here> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mopar-Powerflite-Transmission-1824492-From-...
Shows a cooling line port at the rear of the trans case but I can't quite see exactly where it goes on that part of the trans, I suspect the rear pump ??
You can zoom in somewhat for a closer look.
My TF has a plug that seems to be around that same area, maybe a line from that upper plug on our trans Rich and then to that same connection on the powerflite pic?
I've got a powerflite in my 59 Dodge, I'll have a look under it tomorrow to see if it has the same rear line at the back of the trans case.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 982
Location: Upper Hunter NSW Australia | .......
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Here's another powerflite showing a better side shot
http://www.ebay.com/itm/54-55-PLYMOUTH-CHRYSLER-DODGE-DESOTO-POWERF...
You can see the rear plug I'm talking about, seems to be brass on this trans.
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413 ENGINE ID
