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Veteran
Posts: 153
 
Location: Massachusetts | I am new here & new to Mopar ownership. I just bought an original, no option 61 Savoy in good shape. I have a line on a 61 413 cross ram with torqueflite out of a 61 300. I want to replace the slant six with this motor & make it correct. I am having trouble finding the push button/cable assembly and I am beginning to wonder if I should should leave the 3-speed on the tree in the car. Was this combination available in 61? I know I will need to change the bell housing. I also need a sonoramic badge for the panel below the trunk, any idea where to find that? I would love your comments on my project, as a Ch**y/F**d guy, I need all the help I can get!
Dan
63 Impala Cnvt.
631/2 Galaxie 500 XL fastback |
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Location: Staffordshire, England | dplotkin - as a Ch**y/F**d guy, I need all the help I can get! Dan
You got that right Dan :-) Welcome to the board anyway and I hope some of us here can help with your car.
I'm not too clued up on the '61 Dodges myself but the Torqueflite was definately an optional transmission so it should be possible to find a junker and rob the gear out of that. You'll need the buttons and the actuator box that fits behind them and also the selector cable.
The Crossram equipped 413 was an option on the '61s, it was the Super Ram Induction D-500 option.
Will be an awesome machine when done.
Any pictures?
All the best. |
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Expert
Posts: 4533
 
Location: Ripon, WI | Welcome to the club dude. Everyone saved is well another one saved! We appreciate it any way it happens! |
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Wise Old Village Idiot
Posts: 3591
Location: Dellslow, West ("By God") Virginia ! | One word. PICTURES! |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Be aware that the inner fenders are completely different for a crossram car. They are indented to clear the extended ram tubes and have removeable panels to access the bases. I also believe you will need to change the frame mounts for the V-8 application. I am unaware that Dodge or Plymouth could get a 413 as a Super D500. I thought the makes from DeSoto on down were limited to 383 as the largest displacement through the FL years. I know for a fact that DeSoto was.
But getting back to making it work, I have personally seen a 60 Matador 2HT with a crossram 383 and a 3 on da tree that was dead stock original. My 60 Fireflite 2HT was 383 crossram with a 3 on da flo.
Speaking from real time driving experience, the 3 speed tranny is the standard old truck box. Capable of handling anything you might toss at it (within reason +1000 foot lbs. torque!  ) 1st in non-synchro, and is not that steep. 2nd is where the power curve really hits with medium gears (I ran 3.23 Sure Grip). Stepping up to an 11 or 12 inch disc will be mandatory. You'll fling the 10.5's like frisbees with little effort.
The floor shift was introduced with the 300F with the Pont-a-Mousson 4-speed and these failed badly. I know of no survivors with this gearbox. Mopar's recall answer in a pinch was using the old 3 speed and dreaming up the floor shifter for it. These were standard from mid-60 on for manual tranny 300's and other performance app's. The failure point on this floor shift was the sheetmetal base (it was welded to the floorpan). Cracks develop from the shift movement over time. Mopar's answer to this was a Super Stock (pre Mopar Performance) tranny-mounted shifter that stuck up through the floor pan like all later app's. This was introduced in 1963.
You may require a big V-8 radiator support to hold the larger radiator, as well.
Sounds like a fun "sleeper" project!  |
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Location: Staffordshire, England | The 413 was Dodges biggest engine option starting in '61. The '60 year models still topped out at 383.
The Docs right about the inner fenders having cut-outs to clear the ends of the induction but these are so easy to replicate using your originals.
The Pont-A-Mousson was indeed a rare french built floor shift, I believe it was the same as the ones used in the Facel Vaga. Wayne Graefen has a 1960 300-F Coupe fitted with this gearbox. Persoanlly I prefer a well built torqueflite any day.
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Location: Rusting In New York, hello... | Here's my goofy question for the post. Whatever happened to the 300 the crossram came out of? Is it like the '49 Merc woodie I just picked up a door and the gate from, long since crushed?
If anyone can show me what the bellhousing for this app (413 to manual trans) looks like, it's possible I'll come up with one, the yard I was in during the week has a lot of manual trans parts laying around in buildings and busses with nothing tagged. Don't think the slant-6 would be the same, but I could be wrong. There's a Belvedere 2dr post here handy, too, I just pulled some more stainless off it for eBay and have been sitting on it because the stuff is a pain to pack up.
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Veteran
Posts: 153
Location: Massachusetts | Thanks guys. The Savoy is a Plymouth. The 300 it came out of was I am told totalled 25 years ago & long gone. I will post pictures as we get started, hope to have her on the road next year. The objective is to make her correct & bone stock, as if she was born that way.
Dan |
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Expert
Posts: 1288
| Gentlemen --
Not all ram cars had the fender cut-outs. My current '60 Fury doesn't have them (it also doesn't have the later slotted bellcrank to carbs linkage) and the build record shows it came off the line as a ram car, probably as one of the very first ram cars built. And the cut-outs purpose was actually to facilitate changing the plugs. Remember, back in the days when those cars were new, not every bay in the dealer's shop would have a lift (a few of the smaller ones used pits to LOF and didn't even a lift at all), so to change the plugs they would raise the front end with a jack, pull both front tires, and go in through the fender well cut-outs. I remember the first time I took that first Big-Tailed Beast to the dealer for a tune-up, the shop foreman (they weren't "Service Advisors" then) said it would cost me five dollars a plug to change them -- and this was a time when I was working construction (while going to college) for what was then "big bucks" -- $1.96 an hour! So, I used the issue bumper jack to raise the Beast up and changed my own plugs -- no wheel stands either (safety, what's that?). It was a bitch of a job in the pits at a strip.
BTW, I have heard, but haven't been able to confirm this, that ram-induction could be a "dealer-installed" option, particularly on the Dart 361s. I have also heard that some ram cars were shipped from the factory with the tubes and carbs in the trunk in the event the customers didn't want all that plumbing on their engines, making the cars more difficult to sell. I do know when I traded that BTB (for a '65 Sport Fury with a 4-speed and 426S), that shop foreman made a special effort to run me down one day and said, "Ya know, those manifolds from that old car of yours sure made a nice clang when they hit the bottom of the trash can!" The mechanics hated 'em.
Joe Godec |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: northern germany | Doctor DeSoto - 2005-02-25 12:25 AM
Be aware that the inner fenders are completely different for a crossram car. They are indented to clear the extended ram tubes and have removeable panels to access the bases.
not completely, just cut outs/removeable panels. the early production ram cars didn't have the cut outs. must have been fun to change the plugs.
officially, the 413 was a spring option (i believe starting march '61) for the full size plymouths and darts. at the same time Ch**y and F**d put their 409 and 406 (?) on the option list. i've heard that at least 1 special ordered 60 413 plymouths left the factory, with the right connections you could get everything from chrysler.
of course the later muscle cars were faster but i just love the full size stock car wars of the late 50s and early 60s!
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Wise Old Village Idiot
Posts: 3591
Location: Dellslow, West ("By God") Virginia ! | Doctor DeSoto - 2005-02-24 12:25 PM
The floor shift was introduced with the 300F with the Pont-a-Mousson 4-speed and these failed badly. I know of no survivors with this gearbox.
Richard Petty's Uncle (?) out in AZ, has one or two. There are a couple in private hands listed in the 300 club registry.
There is a '60 F Convt that is the only one in the world that came factory with that French 4 speed. |
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Location: Staffordshire, England | Why did I think we were talking about '61 Dodges?
I can only blame the time of day, or night in this case, as it was early hours of the morning after a long shift at work.
That's my excuse anyway and I'm sticking to it.
Not that it makes a difference cuz I don't know much about '61 Plymouths either......
Time for a lie down I think... |
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Account Suspended (Steve Hobby Alias)
Posts: 66
Location: 2 doors away from 62Chrysler He'll tell ya' | Good Going IAN! Right on Brother
Danny
Imperialindustries.com has the cables, usually in stock. His name is Steve. He tends to be a bit slow so plan the parts a cuple of weeks ahead. You'll have to email him with your information. He can also build you a custom length cable for the shifter. I got one 6" longer. He also has the parking brake cables, tach cables and so on. You can get motor mounts from him too. Push button controls are a dime a dozen, but the right dash panel/cluster is what you need. Can't help you there. Someone must have a source for him to find the parts he needs. You could try www.mooresautosalvage.com and check his inventory. They may have something, I should say probably.
If you need a trans, I know where there is one you can have pretty cheap
Now that we're back on the subject
Edited by 59Saratogaa 2005-02-25 7:14 PM
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Account Suspended (Steve Hobby Alias)
Posts: 3365
Location: North West Jorsey | Moores Auto Salvage Inventory http://www.mooresautosalvage.com/parts.asp?division=2&make=Plymouth He's a bit pricey, but his stuff is pretty good and he's good with delivery |
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Location: Staffordshire, England | Rusty or SafetyMike may be able to help with push-buttons and an actuator box on one of their yard tours. |
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Veteran
Posts: 153
Location: Massachusetts | Thanks. I will follow those leads. What would be more fun as well as have more "cool " factor at the cruise, the push button auto or the three spped on the tree?
Danny |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 929
Location: Finger Lakes NY | are you lookin for the push button or the 3spd parts?
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Veteran
Posts: 153
Location: Massachusetts | Push buttons. I have a 3-speed car. I have a 413 motor with pushbutton automatic to go in it, but none of the push button parts. I need pretty much everything to convert a manual to a correct automatic.
Danny |
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Location: Parts Unknown | Since autos were all the rage by the FL period, finding the parts you need should be of little difficulty. Finding stick gear can be tough! I am still looking for a bell crank ass'y and linkage for a 57-9 V-8 application! Probably make one from scratch when the time comes.  |
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Veteran
Posts: 255
Location: Dunnellon, FL | Year One used to carry the Sonoramic Commando badges. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 929
Location: Finger Lakes NY | i think i can get a push button set up or may even have one
send me a email @ desotozchopshop@hotmail.com
jeff |
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Inactive by user's request
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada | Welcome aboard! Though I'm no expert, I'm the resident "stick guy" by default (have two three on the tree '59s and plan to keep 'em that way.)
The big block three speeds for 1961 had stronger bearings, closer ratio gearing and can be identified by a slight "hump" on the gear box's top cover. The hump to accommodate a larger diameter gear on the main shaft.
I have some info on this, but I'll have to find it and post it for you.
K. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 7409
Location: northern germany | 1960fury - 2005-02-25 10:06 AM
Doctor DeSoto - 2005-02-25 12:25 AM
Be aware that the inner fenders are completely different for a crossram car. They are indented to clear the extended ram tubes and have removeable panels to access the bases.
not completely, just cut outs/removeable panels.
possible missinformation. many years ago when i wanted to add the ram tubes to my 383 60 i was told that i do not need the inner fenders from a crossram car and that the early ramcars did have regular inner fenders. i heard that from different sources. however i'm not 100% sure if thats correct. maybe someone who converted a poly car to raminduction (longram60?) can shed some light on this? |
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Location: Parts Unknown |
OK, ... most 300's with the ram install that I have seen had these inner fenders, as did my 60 Fireflite, a 60 Matador I looked at, and maybe others (?). Those more into this subject than I was told me that this was part of the ram package, and that a good way to tell a non-original car from the real thing was whether or not the special inner fenders were present.
Don't shoot! .... I'm just passing along what I was told. |
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Veteran
Posts: 153
Location: Massachusetts | Would that be a truck tranny? or is it unique? |
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Inactive by user's request
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada | It came out of a 1960 or '61 361 Plymouth.
K. |
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Expert
Posts: 1288
| Gentlemen --
Regarding those cut-out panels, PLEASE check my earlier post on the subject.
Joe Godec |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 7409
Location: northern germany | according to original road tests/articles i have the early ram cars didn't have removeable inner fender panels BUT this does not mean that the early ram cars had regular fenders like the non ram cars, maybe, as brent said, they were shaped differently to clear the ram tubes/carbs?
Edited by 1960fury 2005-03-01 9:23 AM
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Expert
Posts: 1288
| 1960Fury --
I don't think the fenders on my early ram car are any different than the rest of the production run. They surely appear the same without taking any serious measurements and it seems as that a completely different fender would be a rather expensive modification on the production line (but who knows). And if ram-induction could have been a "dealer installed option" (though I haven't been able to substantiate that), those cars definitely would not have special fenders.
Nor would I be surprised if the cut-out panels were done manually (at the factory, of course) either after reports started coming in on the difficulty of changing plugs, at least on the cheaper Plymouths and Darts.
I also suspect the "scare emblems" (i.e., "SonoRamic Commando Power") on each front fender were installed by use of the Mark I Eyeball as one's about an inch more forward and lower than the other.
Joe Godec |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 7409
Location: northern germany | thanks for clearing that up, joe. thats what i guessed. do you happen to have any original (early 60s) pics of your first btb? would love to see em!! |
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Expert
Posts: 1288
| 1960 Fury --
Nope, no pics (decent ones, anyway), which I really regret. I didn't think that car was that special or unusual at the time, so about the only ones I got are a couple of old box camera background shots, and blurry B/W ones at that. Same thing with that '65 Sport Fury that replaced it and the '67 R/T that followed after. If I had only known. . . !
Here's something even worse: after I got married and moved away in '66, my family "cleaned" out my room and threw away all my old drag strip stuff -- like time slips -- and even gave away a couple of trophies I won at some of the local strip! Not out malice, but they wanted to get rid of the "evidence" -- dragging wasn't looked on too favorably then.
Joe Godec |
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Expert 5K+
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Location: northern germany |  |
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1961 Savoy 2-door post
