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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1150
  
Location: Southern California | As I've mentioned before I've been having a problem with my charging system . It's never been right since I took delivery of the drivetrain rebuild. In a nutshell, I've been having problems with my charging system can't seem to get the normal 13.5-14.5 volts in my car. I've gone through 2 alternators and a couple of batteries now after they went dead, at first the battery would last me for 6 months and when driving my volt guage would read 12.8 volts and eventually be around 11.5 while driving. Fast forward after a couple alternator swaps, I finally decided to change the voltage regulator on a whim thinking that was the culprit. We'll fast forward again to today, I installed the new voltage regulator and to my surprise I got the correct 13.5-14.5 volts while the car was running. The regulator smoked for a bit to burn off the varnish on the resistors but then dissipated after about 10 minutes , scared me at first but instructions said it was normal. Anyhow I revved the gas and volts went up and held around 14.5 volts and eventually back down to 13.5, so we're good so far right? Then all of a sudden once my car warmed up and the electric fan kicked on the volts dropped to 12.8-12.5. Then I gave stepped on the gas and brought my rims up and the car charged up again to 13.5-14.5 and held for a minute or so then came back down to 12.8 and stayed there. Is this normal? Will the volts go back up after fan turns off? Or did I just burn out another regulator by something else in the car?  |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1150
Location: Southern California | Typo sorry (rims up) meant rpm's up |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+
  
Location: .Norfolk..Mafia.. ,England UK | Hey Mike,
I only know the common basics of electrics which is enough for me to get by,
A alternator will charge up to around 14.5 volts IF you either have a low battery or you are pulling voltage from the battery. IE Headlamps on Stereo/Electric fan etc, At idle and with nothing switched on and battery being fullly charged , the alternator should only charge at around 12.5 volts..
IF it charged at a constant 14.5 volts with nothing switched on, then it ends up boiling the battery dry and cooking it..
By the sounds of things your alternator is working correctly..
Clive
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8444
Location: Perth Australia | Sorry Clive, your discription was more like what an amp meter would show (low battery, high load = high amps, charged battery, low/no loading = low amps)
Now, type and size of alternator is important here as to how many amps it can handle and its working rpm range ect
Your fan dropping the volts is not a huge concern, but I think you have a 40 (or less) alternator, thats not big enough to cover the loads.
The other thing is your fan belt, an alternator uses more horsepower than a genny, so the belt needs to be quite tight compared to a genny.
I say this because your revving it and the volts comming up, then dropping away, sounds like a slipping belt.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1150
Location: Southern California | I currently have a 60 amp Bestest alternator on her. |
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8444
Location: Perth Australia | 60 amp should be ok, the brand, I am not familliar with
How is the belt, thats what I am leaning towards
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Expert
Posts: 2312
Location: Arizona | Mike, What you describe sounds perfectly normal to me. The voltage will change depending on in how charged up the battery is, the engine (alternator) speed, how much load is on the electrical system, and temperature. When you have been driving at "traffic speed" for around 10 minutes it should settle around 13.25 volts plus or minus about 0.75 volts assuming you didn't start out with a drained or bad battery. A fully charged battery is around 12.5 volts so if it isn't staying at least 12.5 while driving you may have a problem. If you have a lot of electric load it might drop below that *at idle* because you may be pulling more amps than the alternator is putting out at idle which means some of the power is coming back out of the battery. At no load, a fully charged battery is around the 12.5 volts. The more load on the battery (with no gen or alt providing power to the circuit), the lower the voltage reading across the battery will be. If you have a digital voltmeter you will usually see a battery voltage reading of around 9 volts when the starter is cranking the engine. |
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Expert
Posts: 1352
Location: Springville, CA | You have a 60 amp alternator and you're tyring to cool your radiator with an electric fan? No wonder you're having troubles you need at least a 100 amp alternator to successfully use an electric cooling fan |
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Expert
Posts: 2244
Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | Normal battery voltage for a car running above idle is 13.8-14.2 volts, and it will Stay there" until you get bored.
If the fan came on and the voltage dropped to 12.8-12.5 then something is "Fowl in Denmark".
Most electric fans do not draw over over 20 amps, Look up yours on the internet or give me the model number and I will.
I have a huge electric fan on the 59 and I think it's speced around 16 amps or so.
It is possible your 60 amp alternator is not putting out anything around 60 amps,
but I would have to see the car to verify that.
As far as the regulator goes, jumper across the 2 terminals on it and see if the voltage goes up.
If it does, Alternator is ok, but new regulator again has a problem.
The way the regulator works is it supplies 12 volts (or battery voltage to the field in the alternator).
As the voltage in the battery build up, it sends more of the "Field current" for the alternator into those
big resistors that smoked. It does this by vibrating the points inside the regulator faster.
so if you jumper across the regulator then it sends full battery voltage to the field winding on the
alternator and causes it to go to Max charge!
Be careful not to short to ground!!!!!
Gary
Edited by 1959Dodge 2014-07-04 8:46 PM
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Expert
Posts: 2312
Location: Arizona | To give an idea of how much the output drops when idling you can read it off these chart. Common pulley ratio is 3:1 so divide the rpm on the chart by 3 to get engine speed. As the chart for the 10SI shows, at the typical idle speed for these FL's of around 500 rpm, which is an alternator speed of 1500 rpm, the very common original 10SI alternator will at best only be pumping out 0, 5, or 25 amps, depending on which version you have (the 40 amp, 72 amp, or 63 amp). There are also newer aftermarket versions putting out more and presumably they have better output curves to keep the idle amps up. I found a chart for a modern ford 110 amp alternator and it shows it will put out 40 amps at a 500 engine rpm/1500 alt rpm speed.
 (10 si alternator performance curve.jpg)
 (ford 110 amp alternator output chart.jpg)
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 10 si alternator performance curve.jpg (47KB - 352 downloads)
ford 110 amp alternator output chart.jpg (51KB - 718 downloads)
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Expert 5K+
Posts: 8444
Location: Perth Australia | Just to try and keep things a little in perspective, a car built around the mid 70s with all the nice electric options were built from the factory with around 55a alternators and had no problems surviving daily use.
they had some pretty heavy power suckers including multiple headlights, electric rear window defrosters, thermo fans,as well as powerfull heater/a/c fans.
They did struggle a bit at idle when all these things were going at once, so unless you really need everything happening at once, at idle, you dont need to go to the extreams that some do that have massive sound systems that try to blow the windows out (doof doof cars)
Darren may be the person to talk to if thats your game as that sort of charging set up, looks like what he specialises in.
The other side of that coin though is if your main use for the car is low speed cruising (parade type of thing), you may also need to use an alternator that has a higher low speed charging charactoristic to cover things like a constant thermo fan opperation and heater fan and (most likely) headlights
This type of opperation could run to 40 amps quite easilly and is not what your garden variety alternator was designed to cope with.
By the way, the thought on the belt is that as the car was revved up, the votage actually dropped, there are 2 common reasons for this, one is a slipping belt, the other is worn out brushes (worn ot brushes do often destroy regulators)
Bridging the reg out (as stated above) should get the alternator voltage to increase conciderably (at revs), so care must be taken as 16+v would not be surprising
The other thing can be voltage drop between the alternator and battery, ideally, there should be none, but 0.1 to 0.2 would be acceptable on a car
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 524
Location: West Jordan | Assuming it is a Mopar alternator 13.5 at idle with no load is low, should be 14.0 to 14.5. if you hold the RPM at 2K and the volts are steady 14-14.5 volts then your crank pulley is too small, with the switch to alternators they went to larger crank pulleys to increase the low RPM output.
At 2K if you turn on the radiator fan and heat, the volts will drop but should come back to at or near the same voltage you had before you added the extra load after about 1 minute. If not you have don’t have enough amp output from the alternator (its too small), bad grounds, or wires that are too small for the load.
Cheap alternators will over heat, when they do the gap between the rotor and stator will expand and when that happens the alternator will not produce any power until it cools.
If you problem is when the radiator fan turns on, my guess is your wires to the fan are too small, probably 14 gauge and that is driving the amps up, I would bet 14 gauge, try running a 12 gauge wire from the fan positive and ground directly to the battery, with the engine running see if your volts stay in the 14 volt range.
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Expert
Posts: 3035
Location: N.W. Fla. | Did you take it by the parts house & have them put their tester on it? |
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Expert
Posts: 1352
Location: Springville, CA | Some 15" brush-type fans draw as much as 40 amps. If you have that particular fan and your alternator is on the weak side you will have the exact problem you describe. You need to find out what the current draw is for your fan and you need to get your alteernator checked for outout. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1150
Location: Southern California | thanks for the comments guys looks like I have some homework to do, I had a 90 amp powermasters alternator before but the shop switched it to a 60 amp for some reason, I'll, go back to a 90 amp see if that helps as well as check the guage wires. |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1150
Location: Southern California | just wondering...
here is the mechanical voltage reg I am currently using.
now below is a link to a retro fitted electronic upgrade, that has an original casing but is electronic on the inside. Are these better for our cars? thoughts?
thanks.
http://www.4secondsflat.com/electricalsystems.html
 (volt reg.jpg)
 (getimage.jpg)
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volt reg.jpg (39KB - 235 downloads)
getimage.jpg (9KB - 228 downloads)
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Expert
Posts: 2244
Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | I've had the electronic kind on my 64 for probably over 15 years now, and never a problem.
The 59 also has an electronic type voltage regulator and no problems for 10 years.
They don't have points that eventually pit, corrode and burn out.
Gary |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 524
Location: West Jordan | So are you saying that someone will see your voltage regulator is not stock and perhaps dock you points? Ignoring the fact that your generator looks a lot like an alternator?
Seriously you are not running high amperage just get the cheapest regulator, all you need to do is make sure it is the correct design for your alternator. If you have a round back alternator it is a B circuit which is the same as the stock generator, voltage applied to one brush on the slip ring and other brush is ground. The Mopar round back regulators are rather good, but so is an electronic Ford. On a forum discount we sale the solid state, round back regulator for $12.95 including US ground shipping, list is $14.95, so if you can get that one in the link for less money than do it.
If you have an amp meter you can’t just drop in the 90 amp alternator, it is too much power for the charge wire size and gauge to handle.
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Expert
Posts: 2244
Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | No amp gauge in Mike's Plymouth, Darren.
The wire from the alternator output goes directly to his battery as I recall.
Where things can get "tricky" is how the field winding for the alternator is hooked up.
In my 59 the field current went through the ignition switch and was about 3 amps.
I did not care for this arrangement at all, so I wired in a relay, that was energized when I turned the key on.
The field current was there even when the car was not running, so I had to have some way to shut off
the current when the engine was not running, other wise it would drain the battery in due time.
Now it's possible the regulator "should" block any alternator field current if the engine is not running,
(Not sure about that), but the seller knew he had to shut off the field current with the engine off
(Hence his running it through the ignition switch.
I've had no problems , so I haven't investigated as to whether one has to cut the field current off, (manually)
as in my car, or if a properly operating voltage regulator will do that.
That is a good price for a "Solid State" regulator, but~~~~~what do you mean by "Solid State"?
Do you mean the electronic kind with no points?
Gary |
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 524
Location: West Jordan | I would never talk someone out of using a relay, I use them all the time and will have about 12 on the wife’s DeSoto when finished. But what you are describing sounds like a wiring problem or a bad key switch. The power to the regulator should be on a “key on“ circuit, when the key is off it shuts down power to the regulator, with no flow of power no battery drain.
Unless you are talking about ignition back feed, when that happens you turn the key off and the engine keeps running, most common when installing a GM alternator in a Ford. When this happens (way simplifying here) the voltage keeps the key switch energized and power the ignition system, a simple diode will stop this. The bottom line is the regulator will continue to supply field current to the alternator until power is cut to the regulator, key switch or relay something needs to cut the power to shut down the field circuit.
Yes Solid State = no points, electronic regulator.
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Expert
Posts: 2244
Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | Ok thank's for the "Clarification", Daren.
So most the old cars that were converted to Alternators run the field current thru the ignition switch.
As I did not want to be replacing hard to find ignition switches, that's why I added the relay.
Of course when you have a generator there is a set of points in the regulator that open when
the generator is not charging, so hence no need to run anything through the ignition switch.
Gary |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1150
Location: Southern California | heres the alternator and voltage reg currently in my 58. are these compatible with each other? and if so I'd like to switch out my mechanical volt reg for this cool electronic volt reg if it will make a difference.
 (01-0657x_ang.jpg)
 (01-0657x_bac.jpg)
 (01-0657x_sid.jpg)
 (97-396-thickbox.jpg)
 (getimage.jpg)
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01-0657x_ang.jpg (16KB - 221 downloads)
01-0657x_bac.jpg (16KB - 215 downloads)
01-0657x_sid.jpg (13KB - 196 downloads)
97-396-thickbox.jpg (73KB - 219 downloads)
getimage.jpg (9KB - 235 downloads)
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1150
Location: Southern California | heres what Id like to put in if its compatible with my alternator.
 (80f4_35.jpg)
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80f4_35.jpg (14KB - 208 downloads)
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1150
Location: Southern California | oh yeah almost forgot heres my alternator info:
BesTest - Alternator
Part Number: 01-0657X
Line: BTE
1 year limited warranty
• UPC: 631002008628
•Amperage (A): 60 Amp
•Clock Position: 6:00
•New Or Remanufactured: Remanufactured
•Pulley Included: Yes
•Pulley Type: V-Belt
•Voltage (V): 12 Volt
•Voltage Regulator Type: External Regulator
 (01-0657x_ang.jpg)
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01-0657x_ang.jpg (16KB - 240 downloads)
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 524
Location: West Jordan | Yup, everything looks like it will play together just fine.
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1150
Location: Southern California | sweet thanks! |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1150
Location: Southern California | I think I'm getting closer to solving my charging problem, I just discovered that my volt meter in the car is giving me a false reading,(Gary you were right!) while the volts were still low, they were higher than I thought!
Heres what I discovered. I got my multimeter out and read the battery first before starting the car, it read 12.56 volts. Then I started the car and multimetered the battery again, it read 12.19 volts while idling but in the car the volt meter read 11.8 volts (when it was actually 12.19 volts)
So I continued to let the car warm up until the electric fan kicked on , then the voltage read 12.03 at the battery with fan on but inside the car the volt meter read 11.1 volts, so at least I know I have a bad volt meter probably damaged from when the car overheated. Good thing I have another volt meter, so i guess i'll switch that out and see what happens.
my ending battery read after I shut the car off was 12.48 volts at the battery.
So review in nutshell,
began with 12.56 volts started car idling at 12.19 volts, fan comes on load drops volts to 12.03 idling, fan goes off volts go back up to 12.19 volts idling. turned off car battery read 12.48 volts. So is my car technically charging/working? Or do I need to continue to get to this ideal 13.5-14 volts deal?
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Extreme Veteran
Posts: 524
Location: West Jordan | Don’t change your volt meter. You are reading battery voltage with your handheld and system voltage in the gauge in the vehicle. We have $1K meters and they are accurate the discrepancy between your two meters is not worth the time.
You know you are off by about 1 volt, start the engine and hold the RPM at about 1500-2000 does the volt meter in the car come up to at least 13 volts or 14 at the battery?
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Expert
Posts: 2312
Location: Arizona | What is your "in car" voltmeter hooked up to? If it's hooked to some random wire in the dash it may be technically reading correctly and replacing it will just give you the same reading. To be 100% sure you are getting a good voltage reading of the in car voltmeter it would ideally have it's own wire running all the way back to the battery. If it's on wires that are supplying power to "other stuff", that fact that that other stuff is drawing power thru the wire creates a voltage drop in the wire due to the resistance in the wire. So if nothing else, make sure it's hooked to a wire that isn't used to supply much current and/or to a heavy wire that doesn't have much resistance. If you run a seperate wire just for the voltmeter it can be a small gauge wire and work fine. |
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Expert
Posts: 2244
Location: Yorba Linda, Ca | good advice but fuse that wire!!!
It could be the wiring to the voltmeter, or even the ground on it.
If all is working well, mike, with the engine above idle , the battery voltage should climb up to 13.8-14.3 it kinda climbs up as the battery charges
so you may not see it the minute you step on the gas.
Myself, I like to have accurate gauges in my car.
Why, well once the 64 Dodge overheated yet the gauge only read 3/4ths hot.
My Chrysler is the same way, and it really bugs me, I hafta look for Steam Signals in order to know if it's overheating,
(Like when the water pump took a dump), so I'm gonna fix that when I get to it!
Gary |
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Expert
Posts: 2312
Location: Arizona | This guy has a ton of good info in his tech section. Esp interesting is his explanation of why some one-wire alternator systems don't work well and it's not because one wire systems are inherently bad.
http://www.madelectrical.com/ |
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1150
Location: Southern California | I changing my alternators tonight, they look the same except I need this tab clip moved to my new alt, is this tab ok to unscrew from my old alt and attach to my new one? both my connections on field and ground are female connectors, will this be ok? or do I need to find another alt with this tab?
thanks
 (ALT COMPARE.jpg)
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ALT COMPARE.jpg (43KB - 231 downloads)
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Elite Veteran
Posts: 1150
Location: Southern California | typo sorry, meant "I'm changing" |
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Expert
Posts: 2312
Location: Arizona | Just a shot in the dark but your new alternator looks like that tab has been internally connected. Are you sure you can change it? |
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Charging system gremlins
