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Synthetic throughout the drivetrain
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plymouth
Posted 2016-10-30 3:54 PM (#524812)
Subject: Synthetic throughout the drivetrain



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Over the winter, I plan on replacing the seals in the differential, transmission, and get the power steering box rebuilt. The engine has already been rebuilt and will be running full synthetic in the 413 once it's broken in. What about running synthetic oils throughout these other systems? I personally think it's a great way to extend the longevity of the drivetrain but want some other input. Thanks
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wizard
Posted 2016-10-30 4:24 PM (#524814 - in reply to #524812)
Subject: Re: Synthetic throughout the drivetrain



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There are different schools Christian, but I beleive that Sid has the most knowledge of synthetic fluids in these old cars.
So far I tend to lean to the old school, but I have started to use some synthetic Products.
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1960fury
Posted 2016-10-30 4:30 PM (#524816 - in reply to #524812)
Subject: RE: Synthetic throughout the drivetrain



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plymouth - 2016-10-30 3:54 PM

What about running synthetic oils throughout these other systems? I personally think it's a great way to extend the longevity of the drivetrain but want some other input. Thanks


it definitely is, i run nothing but synthetics in my car (except transmission). in the engine for almost 29 years and i'm pretty sure without quality oil it wouldn't be the perfect running 330 000 mile car that it is, heads never been off since august 1959 (new), perfect oil pressure, no noises, still hits 140 in a heart beat (just did it yesterday). i also recommend it for the power steering and of course synthetic grease in the u and ball joints and bearings (still running the OE ball&trunnion and OE front wheel bearings at 330k miles).

i ran a 50/50 mix in the torqueflite (mopar atf 4/ atf 3 ) years ago, but i think it made the shifts a bit softer, so i dumped it.




Edited by 1960fury 2016-10-30 4:37 PM
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1960fury
Posted 2016-10-30 4:32 PM (#524817 - in reply to #524814)
Subject: Re: Synthetic throughout the drivetrain



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wizard - 2016-10-30 4:24 PM

There are different schools Christian, but I beleive that Sid has the most knowledge of synthetic fluids in these old cars.
So far I tend to lean to the old school, but I have started to use some synthetic Products.


wizard, the redline synthetic ps fluid that you suggested works great

Edited by 1960fury 2016-10-30 4:38 PM
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plymouth
Posted 2016-10-30 5:21 PM (#524821 - in reply to #524817)
Subject: Re: Synthetic throughout the drivetrain



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Thank you guys. Sid, how often do you replace the synthetic diff oil and repack wheel bearings and grease for universal joints?
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1960fury
Posted 2016-10-30 5:38 PM (#524825 - in reply to #524821)
Subject: Re: Synthetic throughout the drivetrain



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plymouth - 2016-10-30 5:21 PM

Thank you guys. Sid, how often do you replace the synthetic diff oil and repack wheel bearings and grease for universal joints?


good question, i believe i serviced the ball/trunnion last time about 30k ago, about time. 20-30K or 5 years for the rear axle.
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plymouth
Posted 2016-10-30 5:46 PM (#524826 - in reply to #524825)
Subject: Re: Synthetic throughout the drivetrain



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Thank you
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Ray
Posted 2016-10-30 7:26 PM (#524830 - in reply to #524816)
Subject: RE: Synthetic throughout the drivetrain


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1960fury - 2016-10-30 3:30 PM
plymouth - 2016-10-30 3:54 PM What about running synthetic oils throughout these other systems? I personally think it's a great way to extend the longevity of the drivetrain but want some other input. Thanks
it definitely is, i run nothing but synthetics in my car (except transmission). in the engine for almost 29 years and i'm pretty sure without quality oil it wouldn't be the perfect running 330 000 mile car that it is, heads never been off since august 1959 (new), perfect oil pressure, no noises, still hits 140 in a heart beat (just did it yesterday). i also recommend it for the power steering and of course synthetic grease in the u and ball joints and bearings (still running the OE ball&trunnion and OE front wheel bearings at 330k miles). i ran a 50/50 mix in the torqueflite (mopar atf 4/ atf 3 ) years ago, but i think it made the shifts a bit softer, so i dumped it.

Any truth to rumors that I have read indicating that synthetc may cause seals/gaskets to leak?

Thanks



Edited by Ray 2016-10-30 11:21 PM
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GregCon
Posted 2016-10-30 8:28 PM (#524832 - in reply to #524830)
Subject: Re: Synthetic throughout the drivetrain



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Yes. Synth leaks worse than regular oil...and on these cars that's significant.
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1960fury
Posted 2016-10-31 9:02 AM (#524865 - in reply to #524830)
Subject: RE: Synthetic throughout the drivetrain



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Ray - 2016-10-30 7:26 PM
Any truth to rumors that I have read indicating that synthetc may cause seals/gaskets to leak?

Thanks



yes and no. synthetic oils do NOT affect seals BUT synthetic oils are less viscous than mineral oils when COLD (this is, beside reduced friction, the main reason why synthetic oils reduce wear significantly). so when the engine sits (cold) its more likely to leak. that is why the rumor evolved that synt oils affect seals. at operating temperature however synt oils have a greater stability.
if you have good seals then there aren't any leaks with synthetic oils and they are in fact less likely to occur because of the reduced friction/temperature.

my car didn't leak a drop of rear axle or power steering oil since i owned it (1988). there is a little engine rear main seal leak that is common with high mileage big blocks, however if i drive regularly, like it did past summer (6+K miles), it stops leaking.

Edited by 1960fury 2016-10-31 9:06 AM
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57chizler
Posted 2016-10-31 2:14 PM (#524899 - in reply to #524830)
Subject: RE: Synthetic throughout the drivetrain



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Ray - 2016-10-30 4:26 PM
Any truth to rumors that I have read indicating that synthetc may cause seals/gaskets to leak?


I've discussed this with the folks at Red Line and they claim that the synthetic itself isn't to blame for leaks, it's the "change" in fluids that causes leaks. IOW, seals become accustomed to a certain fluid and the change to a different fluid alone will often cause leaks.

This parallels my experience in the aircraft maintenance industry, change the type of fluid and leaks occur, replace the old seals with new seals of the exact same composition and the leak stops.
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plymouth
Posted 2016-10-31 6:27 PM (#524922 - in reply to #524899)
Subject: Re: Synthetic throughout the drivetrain



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I am going to be replacing the seals and gasket in the differential while I replace the spring bushings. The big reason I'm wanting to swap to synthetic oils and grease when I change out the seals is the fact that I plan on using the car as my daily driver. It is the only car I own. I will be enrolling into school in August and I must have a car that is mechanically sound. If I can you lubricants that reduce wear, I will do it.
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GregCon
Posted 2016-10-31 6:44 PM (#524928 - in reply to #524922)
Subject: Re: Synthetic throughout the drivetrain



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I guess you could use synthetics on a car with all new seals, but if you have a car that's already together...

My opinion...? I don' think the cars of the FL era have the 'support structure' in place not to leak a little. The design of seals, gaskets, and surfaces just wasn't what it needs to be.



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1960fury
Posted 2016-10-31 7:37 PM (#524934 - in reply to #524928)
Subject: Re: Synthetic throughout the drivetrain



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GregCon - 2016-10-31 6:44 PM

I guess you could use synthetics on a car with all new seals, but if you have a car that's already together...

My opinion...? I don' think the cars of the FL era have the 'support structure' in place not to leak a little. The design of seals, gaskets, and surfaces just wasn't what it needs to be.



you gotta be kidding. you can't find a 10+ car that isn't leaking at least a bit. the oe mopar seals are of very high quality, i guess better than today and they don't use a new "design" today.

have you actually read my message? my 330k mile and 57 year old never rebuild engine leaks a little, that leak stops when i drive regularly and this is for what these cars were build for. of course todays cars never get that old, so they can throw crappy seals in them. like the one in my brothers 2 year old honda that leaked large amounts of hydraulic fluid onto the clutch and brake pedal almost causing an accident.
my 330k miles power steering box and pump (except housing o-ring) still has the 57 year old OE seal and it hasn't leaked a drop as long as i own my car (29 years next spring). new car manufacturers could learn from that quality, like producing cable insulation or windshield gaskets that don't go bad even after 50+ years of daily use (never saw a 59-61 mopar with brittled dash wires or disintegrating windshield gaskets and i have seen a lot).
unfortunately bad body panel alignment and poor rustproofing lets ignorant people conclude these were poorly engineered, bad quality cars. that is not the case. if i had to choose a car to travel around the word and to keep for the rest of my life, i would take a 1960 MOPAR.

Edited by 1960fury 2016-10-31 7:42 PM
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GregCon
Posted 2016-10-31 10:47 PM (#524948 - in reply to #524934)
Subject: Re: Synthetic throughout the drivetrain



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There are always that .001% of cars that exhibit abnormally good performance. In terms of leaks, your is one of those.

The average FL car, I'll wager, leaks. When I talk about design/engineering, I'm referring to the thought that went into making a component that would inherently not leak. For example, on big blocks, the lower edge of the valve cover - where the gasket sits - stays immersed in oil when you shut the engine off. A better design would have the oil run off to the oil pan. And the sealing surfaces? Unmachined cast iron, a too thick rubber/cork gasket, and a stamped steel valve cover with no positive stop screws. Top it all off with an exhaust manifold placed in close proximity to ensure plenty of baking. A recipe for leaks.

Look at a modern car....fully machined mating surfaces, molded rubber gaskets that usually have a metal insert, O-rings, positive stop fasteners, etc. It's pretty hard to get a modern car to leak oil if you put it together halfway right. That's all I'm saying.

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Polara61_383
Posted 2016-11-01 6:03 AM (#524962 - in reply to #524812)
Subject: Re: Synthetic throughout the drivetrain



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Sorry, but I can't really agree. Approx. 90% of the cars here in germany are "modern" cars, built from 2000 and on. My guess is it's the same in the US. You just have to take a look on any empty parking lot (like in front of the mall in the evening) and you will notice that there are oil spills on every parking space. And I really doubt these spills are all caused by 60s Chryslers... In fact I have never seen a car between 5-10 years old that does NOT leak somewhere. I once had this argument with my neighbors because an old lady accused me of "ruining" the parking lot in front of our house. Well, it took me like 10 minutes and a clean towel to convince her that my Dodge was the ONLY car in that parking lot NOT leaking any oil. Didn't win that argument though because she then accused me of unneccessary pollution because my car obviously doesn't have a catalytic converter and it of course "wastes like 100s of gallons of fuel each mile"...At that point I just walked away...

Edit: coming back to the original topic: On the german mopar forum there is a discussion going on what kind of fluid to put in the power steering. The common notion there is that ATF would destroy the pump in short time...However I am convinced that my pump hasn't seen anything else in the last 15 years at least. So what are your opinions on that?

Edited by Polara61_383 2016-11-01 6:07 AM
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1960fury
Posted 2016-11-01 9:07 AM (#524970 - in reply to #524948)
Subject: Re: Synthetic throughout the drivetrain



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GregCon - 2016-10-31 10:47 PM


There are always that .001% of cars that exhibit abnormally good performance. In terms of leaks, your is one of those.

For example, on big blocks, the lower edge of the valve cover -



so i guess i lucked out with the cars i had and have and always got the .001%? the valve cover is a good example, you blame mistreatment of owners and mechanics on these fine cars. if you know how to install the seals, there aren't any leaks.
i have the misfortune to drive a new car (company car) every day, there is so much wrong with it i wouldn't know where to start to tell you about this ill engineered, troublesome piece of crap. i saw the "new" cars around me come and go, not rarely hauled away, since i own my 60 plymouth.
my brothers likes mercedes, which are said to be the highest quality cars in the world, good joke, i watch him buy another one every couple of years when they develop major leaks and problems that are impossible to fix.
provided my car is not destroyed in some accident it will be still around in the next century. just treat these cars well and they last forever, impossible with one of todays cars.

Edited by 1960fury 2016-11-01 9:20 AM
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1960fury
Posted 2016-11-01 9:13 AM (#524971 - in reply to #524962)
Subject: Re: Synthetic throughout the drivetrain



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Polara61_383 - 2016-11-01 6:03 AM

Edit: coming back to the original topic: On the german mopar forum there is a discussion going on what kind of fluid to put in the power steering. The common notion there is that ATF would destroy the pump in short time...However I am convinced that my pump hasn't seen anything else in the last 15 years at least. So what are your opinions on that?


Nikolas, the previous owner of my cars only used ATF for the power steering and so did i for about 100k miles and many years until i changed to mopar atf 4 (synthetic) and later to redline synthetic ps fluid that wizard recommended. up to this day the ps system works like new, doesn't leak and has never been rebuild (57 years!) so don't worry about the atf.
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wizard
Posted 2016-11-01 11:24 AM (#524980 - in reply to #524812)
Subject: Re: Synthetic throughout the drivetrain



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As one explanation to why some lip seals leaks; normally there will be a buildup of oil and particles on the shaft (as example). As long as the same type of oil is used, everything is just fine, if the oil is changed to a dissolving type, then the "Ridge" will be washed off and the seal starts to leak. As written above, change the seal and all is fine again.

I think this theory is valid bouth for for mineral oils of different types and for exchange to synthetic.
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hemidenis
Posted 2016-11-01 7:14 PM (#525019 - in reply to #524812)
Subject: Re: Synthetic throughout the drivetrain



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I replaced my car trans oil with Mobil1 syntetic when i purchased it, the leaking was just too bad. I replaced with regular ATF and all went well . Engine. PS and rear axle is all syntetic...
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plymouth
Posted 2016-11-05 4:05 PM (#525389 - in reply to #525019)
Subject: Re: Synthetic throughout the drivetrain



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Okay so I have decided I will be using synthetic throughout the car. My question now is, what brand do you guys who use synthetic prefer? I'm thinking Royal Purple HPS for the engine and Redline power steering fluid. What about the rear axle and lubrication points on the steering joints?
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wizard
Posted 2016-11-05 5:42 PM (#525399 - in reply to #524812)
Subject: Re: Synthetic throughout the drivetrain



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I can only recommend the Red Line Power steering fluid - I don't have any knowledge of the other produts.
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mikes2nd
Posted 2016-11-05 8:21 PM (#525409 - in reply to #524812)
Subject: Re: Synthetic throughout the drivetrain


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Im.changing my seals on.my hemi I will run synthetic in it if I can
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Greg P.
Posted 2016-11-22 5:32 PM (#526884 - in reply to #525409)
Subject: Re: Synthetic throughout the drivetrain



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At the risk of being annoying, I will throw in my two cents.

From what I know, using synthetic lubricants on our cars will provide a marginal benefit at best.

In terms of lubricating properties, synthetic lubricants may provide a small benefit over conventional lubricants but it's rather miniscule and would be hard to say that it would provide any advantage at all in these old motors. The truth is that modern conventional lubricants have outstanding lubrication properties, especially when compared to the oils that were in use when our cars were new.

The primary advantage to synthetics is that they allow increased frequency of oil changes. and it's true that the synthetic oils do last longer before they begin to break down. That works out well for modern engines designs which are very tight and have good crankcase ventilation. However, in our Forward Look era engines, the primary limiting factor on oil change frequency is not lubrication breakdown itself, but rather contamination of oil due to cylinder blow-by which includes condensation of water vapor and other nasty things in the crankcase. I should mention I'm talking about engine oil and not the other lubes. Most Forward Look cars use a rather inefficient draft tube for crankcase ventilation, though some of the later FLs may be equipped with a primitive PCV valve which does a slightly better job. Contamination of oil can be exacerbated by particular driving habits. The worst case scenario is making a lot of short runs that don't allow the engine to come up and maintain full operating temperature long enough to "cook off" accumulated water vapor and other volatiles.

There's probably not much downside to using synthetic oils other than some anecdotal stories of increased leakage through the seals. I've heard enough of them to believe it happens at least some times. The only real downside is the increased cost which is not insignificant when you look at the price of some synthetics. Based on what I know, I'm suggesting that that more frequent oil changes with cheaper oil would probably benefit most of us more than less frequent oil changes of expensive synthetic oil.

It's also worth mentioning that most of us simply do not drive our cars enough miles to reasonably expect a lubrication related failure. Although if you were actually using your car as a daily driver over a long period of time, it is certainly possible.

My info is based on a stint I did as a consultant with GM where I got to spend good deal of time with some high powered powertrain engineers. These guys spent a lot of time studying lubrication life and lubrication failure using tons and tons of real data and actual scientific analysis backed up with extensive practical testing. Yes, I know GM is always "suspect"and is not always the best example, but these guys knew their stuff and they loved talking about it.

On an interesting sidenote, many newer cars are equipped with oil life monitors (OLMs) that display when it is time to change the oil. The OLM is actually quite a sophisticated device that uses surprisingly complex algorithms to determine the optimal oil change frequency based on tracking your actual driving history and includes multiple inputs such as speed time and temperature. The OLM is not just simply counting miles. They work well and I recommend using it if you have one.


Edited by Greg P. 2016-11-22 5:36 PM
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1960fury
Posted 2016-11-22 6:34 PM (#526888 - in reply to #526884)
Subject: Re: Synthetic throughout the drivetrain



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Greg P. - 2016-11-22 5:32 PM

At the risk of being annoying, I will throw in my two cents.

From what I know, using synthetic lubricants on our cars will provide a marginal benefit at best.

In terms of lubricating properties, synthetic lubricants may provide a small benefit over conventional lubricants but it's rather miniscule and would be hard to say that it would provide any advantage at all in these old motors.


well actually it will provide even bigger advantages in these old (big) engines. that "slight advantage" even shows on a dyno, reduced drag, not rarely up to 10hp. but the main advantage is the greater thermal stability and lower viscosity at low temperatures, at cold starts when 95+ percent of engine wear occurs. its the second when you cold start your engine without oil pressure that slowly kills it. synthetics cut the time without oil pressure (its thinner at LOW temperatures) and lubricates better when cold and therefore reduces engine wear.
and btw, synthetic engine oil for automobiles was introduced in the 60s for these "old motors".
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plymouth
Posted 2018-08-28 9:04 AM (#569135 - in reply to #524812)
Subject: Re: Synthetic throughout the drivetrain



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It's been almost two years since I started this thread and thought I would share my results with you guys. As of right now, the engine, universal joints, wheel bearings, and differential are all being lubricated by synthetic oil/grease. There have been absolutely no adverse effects to using synthetic in this car. One thing I have noticed, is that the engine oil pressure is more stable, the pressure builds up more quickly on startups and also oil pressure stays in the center of the gauge or slightly higher in this Mississippi heat. I am glad I switched over. The extended change intervals are a great plus too. Next up on my list is to swap over to synthetic power steering fluid.

Edited by plymouth 2018-08-28 9:07 AM
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1960fury
Posted 2018-08-28 10:19 AM (#569140 - in reply to #524812)
Subject: Re: Synthetic throughout the drivetrain



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Thanks for the update, Christian. Yes, I've been using nothing but synthetic lubricants for over 30 years with no adverse affects. My 60 still runs like new with perfect oil pressure and no unusual noises with over 330K miles on the clock.
Couple of years ago I changed to synthetic oil in my air compressor, that always killed fuses and took about 30 minutes to opperate properly in cold weather. It was a pita to start it. Switched to syntheric oil and it started immediately with no problems at all and it doesn't get as hot as with mineral oil in summer weather.

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