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New to Forum, 1957 DeSoto Firedome Jump to page : 1 Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
Forward Look Technical Discussions -> General Technical Discussion and Troubleshooting | Message format |
JGC403 |
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Regular Posts: 57 Location: GREENEVILLE, TN | My dad dragged this car home one day, it had been sitting in a farmer's field for years in Pennsylvania. It was a 2 door and he figured it was rare so that is why he got it and for only $800. I was small when he was re-building it, he said he would put me in the trunk to play while he worked on the car. Floor was rotted out, he went out to Arizona and got a floor out of a 4-door. Took a couple of years but the car came together. Then we had to move out to AZ and the car sat at my grandparents house in the garage for years. We are finally going to finish it. There are a bunch of odds and ends that need to be finished and I want to re-do some things because they aren't correct. I want it to look original, but at the same time make some stuff more modern and reliable, but nothing that can't be returned to stock if need be. I'll be asking a lot of questions, lol. I'm not as familiar with these cars as I am with the 60/70s stuff and 90's cars. Carb rebuild kit is on the way, I know I'll need that and I need to go over the brakes, cause the pedal goes right to the floor. That are the most immediate places that need attention to get it running again. Now for some questions: How reliable are the generators on these cars? How much amps do they put out? I want to remove the solid steel fan and replace it with an electric fan with a shroud. I don't want to over tax the charging system. What are the correct colors for the engine compartment? What color was the block and heads/ valve covers/ spark plug covers/ etc. If anyone has any pictures of an original engine compartment that would really help. Is anyone reproducing the correct looking battery for these cars? I found someone reproducing 1959 DeSoto taillight lenses are these the same as 1957? I wanted to put a dual master cylinder on the car, but I found a disc conversion kit for the front so, I think I will let that go for now and save for the disc conversion. Is there any disc conversions for the rear axle? I haven't found anything yet for the older axles just the flange style ones. Can I easily convert the old tapered axle to a flange style or do I need to replace the entire axle assembly? I would like to convert it over to electronic ignition. There is a low deck and tall deck early Hemi? What one is the 341 DeSoto? Will a small block distributor drop right in? Anyone know of a source for DeSoto 341 Hemi pushrods, non-adjustable? Edited by JGC403 2017-10-07 12:17 AM | ||
Doctor DeSoto |
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Location: Parts Unknown | I will hit on the questions I can answer and leave the rest. Rebuild the generator and it will last you a lifetime. I believe the stock unit puts out 30 amps, but there were optional units with higher output, typically fitted to police cars and taxis. Cars built in Detroit will have grey inner fender panels, while LA- built cars used P&A Black. Radiator support and valance, etc. were all P&A Black. The "mouth" hole on the 57 was Argent Silver. Cowls are always body color and not painted a different "under hood" color. Engine was one color - silver. Spark plug covers were P&A with red lettering. Yes, you can get a period-looking battery. Not sure who sells them, but they are made. Tail light lenses are 57-58 only. Kent in Sweden and George Laurie in Oz make/sell them. Expect a year lead time to get them. Maybe 2 with George. I am not up in the current latest-and-greatest for the brake system changeover. A lot of guys do it. I am not that interested, as I feel the brakes are fine when you really know how to dial them in. Why convert to electronic ? Pertronix and others offer kits to install in a stock distributor. Easy peasy, ... but again, I see no issue with the stock unit. I have never heard the hi/lo deck term used for early Hemi's, but the DeSoto Hemi went through a number of bore-outs and strokings between 1952 and 1957, so some WILL fall on either side of that mark. The 341 is the end of the road for that block, so it would be bored and stroked from the early ones. If pushrods for 341's are available new, I am ignorant of such a source. Lots of FL guys have parts stashes and can help you out. Post an ad in the "wanted" section. | ||
56D500boy |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9904 Location: Lower Mainland BC | Like this one? | ||
Fireflite56 |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 341 Location: Wisconsin | Just to expand/clarify on what Doctor DeSoto said: The engine itself should be all silver, but some of the bolt-on components, such as the fan, trans cooler (the '56 Firedome did not come with a trans cooler, but I am not sure about '57), oil fill cap, oil breather tube, starter, etc. are black. Also, at least for '56, the letters on the spark plug wire covers were painted black. Again, I am not positive if this changed for '57, so maybe someone can confirm. Here is a link to Ed Petrus' website: http://www.angelfire.com/de/petrus/ He is arguably the most knowledgeable guy on the '57 models and a super nice guy. For a quick visual reference, I am also including photos of my '56 Fireflite hemi - I assume the vast majority will be the same as a '57 Firedome. I spent a lot of time looking at original cars and photographs to make sure I got the colors right. With that said, I will point out that the factory would have oversprayed the by-pass hose silver, which I chose not to do because I think it looks sloppy. I also had the exhaust manifolds ceramic coated in a color as close to natural metal as I could get. I hope this helps. (IMG_2781_A.jpg) (IMG_2782_A.jpg) (IMG_3658_A.jpg) (IMG_3386_A.jpg) Attachments ---------------- IMG_2781_A.jpg (161KB - 180 downloads) IMG_2782_A.jpg (136KB - 173 downloads) IMG_3658_A.jpg (140KB - 183 downloads) IMG_3386_A.jpg (140KB - 202 downloads) | ||
JGC403 |
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Regular Posts: 57 Location: GREENEVILLE, TN | Thank you for the replys. So with a 30 amp generator and an electric fan that draws 18 amps, I don't think the stock charging system could keep up with the demand. I would probably be better off with a clutch driven fan. Did some cars come with a shroud? Doctor DeSoto what is P&A black? I wanted to convert it to electronic ignition to improve reliability. With electronic ignition it never wears out and it never goes out of adjustment. Fireflight56 is yours a factory AC car? Only reason I ask is that your fan has 6 blades. Mine only has 4 blades. So the crank and water pump pulleys are silver also. I found a couple of 1957 cars that had gold valve covers, but from the '57 cars on that website the gold valve covers would be wrong. Thanks for posting that site very interesting. Edited by JGC403 2017-10-07 10:24 PM | ||
56D500boy |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9904 Location: Lower Mainland BC | JGC403 - 2017-10-07 10:22 PM I wanted to convert it to electronic ignition to improve reliability. With electronic ignition it never wears out and it never goes out of adjustment. If your distributor is a dual point variety, Pertronix makes a drop in kit that replaces the dual points and condensor with a Hall effects pick-up. As an added bonus, you can then go to their non-ballast 40,000 V coil. FIRE IN THE HOLE!! Previous Pertronix comments that I made in a thread: http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=42014&... This one: http://www.jegs.com/i/Pertronix/751/1383/10002/-1 | ||
57desoto |
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Expert Posts: 1488 Location: New Castle PA | For 1957 (at least), the 4-blade fan is correct unless you had AC, in which case you had a radiator shroud and the 6-blade unit. P&A (from Doc's posting) is Parts And Assembly black. Fir a FireDOME, the spark plug letters are black (red on the FireFLITE and Adventurer, which actually still says FIREFLITE on the plug covers). Dual point distributor only on the Adventurer model, so yours is the single-point version. 30-amp generator is standard, as Doc said, and radiator fan is non-clutch. Although replica batteries are available from places like Antique Auto Battery in OH, I've never found one that is as good as a new maintenance-free unit. I use a NAPA battery, top posts, and epoxied onto the top flat surface 6 of the screw-in caps from old-style batteries. You have the look of the old with the performance of the new. Edited by 57desoto 2017-10-08 9:36 AM (battery_with_fake_caps.jpg) Attachments ---------------- battery_with_fake_caps.jpg (85KB - 215 downloads) | ||
JGC403 |
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Regular Posts: 57 Location: GREENEVILLE, TN | On the '57 DeSoto website that was posted the lettering on the spark plug covers were red on the Firedome. http://www.angelfire.com/de/petrus/page27.html I see there are supposed to be decals on the air cleaner, power steering reservoir, and Breather cap is anyone reproducing those? So there are no electronic conversion kits for the single points distributors? My DeSoto has a 4 blade solid steel fan now and its correct. I just want to put a clutch fan on for a little better performance. That is why I was going to get rid of the engine driven fan all together, but I don't think the factory charge system can keep up with it. That is a clever idea to have a period correct looking battery. Edited by JGC403 2017-10-08 11:53 AM | ||
56D500boy |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9904 Location: Lower Mainland BC | JGC403 - 2017-10-08 11:38 AM I see there are supposed to be decals on the air cleaner, power steering reservoir, and Breather cap is anyone reproducing those? You can try Osborn Reproductions http://osborn-reproduction.com/catalog/SearchByProductType.asp?rsCa... (56DodgeCustomRoyalD500EngineShowingHeaterHoseBracket.jpg) Attachments ---------------- 56DodgeCustomRoyalD500EngineShowingHeaterHoseBracket.jpg (143KB - 193 downloads) | ||
57desoto |
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Expert Posts: 1488 Location: New Castle PA | Yes, the Firedome plug letters in the pictures you saw were red at the time, but have been corrected to be black now. | ||
JGC403 |
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Regular Posts: 57 Location: GREENEVILLE, TN | Is there just not enough room inside the single points distributor that the conversion kits won't work? | ||
57desoto |
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Expert Posts: 1488 Location: New Castle PA | You'll have to wait for someone else to answer the e-ignition question. I never saw any need to make that change and I run with the points in my 3 DeSotos. Considering the relatively little usage they get, anything like brake shoes, points, shocks, and things like that that are installed on the car will likely outlast me. | ||
Fireflite56 |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 341 Location: Wisconsin | FYI, just to answer the question, the '56 must have had 6-blade fans for the non-A/C Fireflites. Besides the one in the photo, I checked a spare engine we have out of another non-A/C car and two loose fans. All are 6-blade. I would strongly discourage electronic ignition conversions unless you are either drag racing (and looking to shave 1/10's of seconds off) or are putting 5,000+ miles/year on the car. The reason I suggest this is that I have seen one car (a '68 Dart) quit without warning on the way home from a car show because the electronic ignition went out. Likewise, a '56 DeSoto owner who drove from Florida to Illinois to California for the last NDC meet had an electronic ignition fail on the trip. He previously had sworn by them and is now going to put the original set-up back in the car. For 20 minutes of fiddling with setting points every 10,000 miles, I personally feel it's worth not having the possibility of a sudden system failure. With that said, this is just my personal opinion and I still carry an extra set of tune-up parts on long distance trips. It's your car and you can go whichever route you choose. | ||
57burb |
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Expert Posts: 3967 Location: DFW, TX | I'll try to help as I can. JGC403 - 2017-10-06 9:30 PM Now for some questions: How reliable are the generators on these cars? How much amps do they put out? I want to remove the solid steel fan and replace it with an electric fan with a shroud. I don't want to over tax the charging system. The generators are stone-reliable. The brushes do wear out, so I'd suggest maintaining it as described in the service manual (free digital copies are floating around) or just take it to an old-time starter/alternator shop and have them do it. I would not suggest attempting to power an electric fan with it, the generator simply doesn't output enough current to keep up with one. The excess draw will burn out the ammeter in the dash, and likely some amount of wiring, in no time at all. There were higher output generators installed on fleet cars (such as police cars and taxis) and cars with air conditioning. I wanted to put a dual master cylinder on the car, but I found a disc conversion kit for the front so, I think I will let that go for now and save for the disc conversion. Is there any disc conversions for the rear axle? I haven't found anything yet for the older axles just the flange style ones. Can I easily convert the old tapered axle to a flange style or do I need to replace the entire axle assembly? I have used an AAJ front brake kit now twice and it took a lot of work to get the brakes working properly. The issue is that the factory '50s Mopar rear brakes take much more fluid volume than the later (even '60s) master cylinders were intended to deliver. When you pair the stock brakes with '70s GM front calipers, you have some weirdness with mismatched volume requirements, pedal travel, and residual brake valves. My suggestion? Either maintain the stock brakes and keep your distance, or plan to replace the master cylinder and all the front and rear brakes at once. FuryJim has a bunch of detailed photos and part numbers on a swap that has proven successful several times: https://www.facebook.com/furyjim.rawa/media_set?set=a.10210587894870... I believe a C-body rear axle will bolt into place, but be ready to deal with possible u-joint issues. I'm fairly certain that 1957 Mopars use a one-year-only u-joint, so be ready to have the driveshaft modified or find a '58/59 driveshaft. I would like to convert it over to electronic ignition. There is a low deck and tall deck early Hemi? What one is the 341 DeSoto? Will a small block distributor drop right in? I've heard all kinds of varying "issues" with using a Pertronix, but for me it's been an easy swap on a '57 392. Open the cap, 5 minutes to evaluate the suitability of the coil, another 5 minutes of minor wiring changes, and voila. Your '57 341 is a tall deck block, as is the 345 used in the Adventurer. In 1956, the 330 (Firedome/flite) and 341 (Adventurer) were tall deck blocks. The '55 and earlier 276 and 291 engines were the low deck Desoto engines. Anyone know of a source for DeSoto 341 Hemi pushrods, non-adjustable? Stock pushrods should be pretty easy to find. Start a thread in the Wanted forum here. Bob Walker's Hot Hemi Heads site has a free classified area. He may also sell them new, if he has some. Just ask. http://hothemiheads.com and http://hothemiheads.com/swapmeet/parts.html | ||
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