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Wilwood residual pressure valve question
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Ev's62Chrysler
Posted 2018-02-11 11:35 AM (#557894)
Subject: Wilwood residual pressure valve question



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Location: Suwanee, GA
Attempting to install a 10lb RPV for the rear drum brakes as the master cylinder does not have one. The Wilwood unit I purchased came with plastic end plugs in the body. As I removed it from the packaging I got brake fluid on my hands. Does shipping with a reasonable amount of fluid inside sound normal to anyone, or is this a "purchase/install/return to Summit" job? Being Sunday morning, I don't expect a response from Wilwood today and wanting not to install a problem.

Robert
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-02-11 12:17 PM (#557897 - in reply to #557894)
Subject: Re: Wilwood residual pressure valve question



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It is probably a return. I have purchased and used these and never had any fluid from them. That said, I don't think you should be afraid to use it though. These are returned very often because they leak. But that is because Wilwood doesn't seal the ends on them sufficiently from the factory. Just remove the ends, apply teflon tape to the threads and re-install them tight and they will work well for you. Most people think they are good to go and don't bother to re-seal it, only to find that it leaks afterward.
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1960fury
Posted 2018-02-11 12:20 PM (#557898 - in reply to #557894)
Subject: Re: Wilwood residual pressure valve question



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i received a couple of residual valves and a wilwood proportion valve with the orange plastic plugs, all dry. can't imagine they pour brake fluid into a new valve.
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Ev's62Chrysler
Posted 2018-02-12 6:22 PM (#557993 - in reply to #557894)
Subject: Re: Wilwood residual pressure valve question



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I called Wilwood this morning and was told there shouldn't have been any brake fluid in it. Then I called Summit, and they're sending out a new one.
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Ev's62Chrysler
Posted 2018-03-17 1:26 PM (#560061 - in reply to #557894)
Subject: Re: Wilwood residual pressure valve question



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Location: Suwanee, GA
Update on my front disk brake conversion project on my 62 NYer:

Problem: low brake pedal - almost to floor before brakes apply. Pumping pedal does not raise pedal, so I feel I've removed air from the system.
Pedal goes so far I'm afraid to drive car beyond driveway. Help!

Background:
All parts new: AAJ brackets with Monte Carlo calipers, Monaco rotors, 70 NY disk/drum master (Cardone 1.125" bore), 10psi residual for rear brakes, new rubber hoses (front/rear), new wheel cylinders (last year - standard 1.125" bore), original booster. Brake system was "fine" with centerplane brakes before conversion. No changes to rear brakes.

I've bench bleed the master different ways:
1. plastic fittings and lines going into the bowls
2. plastic plugs and pumping until it's firm (I could never get it move no more than 1/8" as instructions say to look for. It move about 5/16" before stopping. This makes me wonder if part of the total stroke is wasted and compounded by the pedal ratio).
3. Syringe method

With all methods I'm able to get rid of air bubbles, and they all yield same results once installed on car of very low pedal.

I've bled using a Motive pressure bleeder primarily, and also did a bit of the old fashion pump/hold/open bleeder/close bleeder/release method.
I've even locked the rear shoes to the drums, but it made no difference. I ordered a second master cylinder (Raybestos 1.125") and it responded the same, however it leaks at the bottom bolt that holds the pistons in the bore. I've also raised the rear of the car so that the any air in the master is at the firewall end and can be purged through the vents.

Front calipers/pads are against the rotors and visually look fine.

The only things I can think to do before throwing more parts at is are:
1. plug ports on master to confirm hard pedal
2. lengthen rod between booster and master (I was careful not to pre-load it. Maybe I need to adjust it a bit as long as the vents are not blocked. Problem is I won't be able to tell, and it will be trial and error.)
3. I do have another new set of shorter front hoses in case one or more are collapsed.

One thing I noticed today is when carefully pressing pedal with cover off master so as to not make a mess, the primary bowl fluid level drops, while the secondary bowl shoots a small geyser and the level raises. I believe this to be normal for the geyser, but can't help but wonder if the primary seal is bad. Or does this point to adjustment of the rod?

Any suggestions would be appreciated. This couple week front suspension/brake conversion job started in November is making me consider putting the centerplanes back on.

Robert

PS - Wilwood RPV is installed correctly and doesn't leak. I can only assume it functions properly.


UPDATE:
I've got decent pedal when blocking the rear brakes at master, but my brass fittings I used were leaking. I've got decent pedal when blocking rear brakes after the RPV and the proportioning valve, but I had a slight amount of air in the fittings I used to block them. On to the rear of the car.



Edited by Ev's62Chrysler 2018-03-17 3:42 PM
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-03-17 7:22 PM (#560079 - in reply to #557894)
Subject: Re: Wilwood residual pressure valve question



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Yes, you have to start doing investigations. Now you know the problem is in the rear somewhere. If you have no leaks anywhere and the system is fully purged, it could be that your rear brakes just aren't adjusted properly yet so they move too much.
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57burb
Posted 2018-03-17 9:40 PM (#560081 - in reply to #560079)
Subject: Re: Wilwood residual pressure valve question



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Agreed. I have AAJ brakes on my wagon, using stock Mopar rear brakes. What I found is, the rear brake adjustment is far more important than before. The front disc brakes do not seem to begin engaging until the rear brakes do. Once I adjusted the rears very tight (not dragging!), the entire brake system works better.

Edited by 57burb 2018-03-17 9:41 PM
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Beltran
Posted 2018-03-18 5:45 PM (#560116 - in reply to #557894)
Subject: Re: Wilwood residual pressure valve question



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Make sure you have a slight drag on the rear pads.
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Beltran
Posted 2018-03-18 5:46 PM (#560117 - in reply to #557894)
Subject: Re: Wilwood residual pressure valve question



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a picture of the booster / master / plumbing would go a long way for those of us trying to visualize your situation.
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Ev's62Chrysler
Posted 2018-03-18 9:20 PM (#560129 - in reply to #557894)
Subject: Re: Wilwood residual pressure valve question



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Location: Suwanee, GA
Rears shoes are dragging. I learned that last year prior to this conversion.

I did the following today:

Adjusted booster rod 1/2 turn out (.021"). Re-bled brakes, first primary port on master, then rear line at outlet side of proportioning valve, then at wheel cylinders (furthest first, etc.). While doing fronts I noticed drips on the bottoms of both calipers. Could be from previous bleeding, but not sure. I generally soak up spilled fluid. Pedal is better, but still unacceptably awful (still very low, but not as low as before). Was able to drive through neighborhood. I cannot pump to raise pedal.

Note on calipers: It took 9 calipers from three O'Reilly stores to get one "good" pair. I even ordered the original ahead of time so as to not chase around town. Most did not contain the machined sealing rings for the banjo fittings (the seats were raw casting and the hoses leaked) or other machining for the pads. One had metric threads, and one was purchased/installed/returned/had missing parts. Took a week to get one "good" pair, but now I'm not so sure they're good.

I think the secondary port threads are 9/16-20, not 9/16-18 as info online states. My hose fitting threads are boogered a bit, and the brass plug didn't seal completely. The head of the plug for the primary port bottomed out on the boss before it would seal, so I had to plug the rear brakes at the outlet of the proportioning valve. Thus I'm not completely positive master is rock solid. I'll need to get correct plugs. It's firm though when bench bleeding with the plastic plugs, but only after plunging >1/4". That's over an inch pedal movement factoring in the pedal ratio. Thus the reason for adjusting booster rod slightly from .010" clearance.

Here are pics. Not pretty plumbing, but plan some day I'll redo it when I pull the engine. Front brakes use 1/4" line leading to original junction on frame. I plugged the port originally used for the rear line. Rear brakes use 3/16" line, coupling with the original line to rear of car.

Last time I had my drums off, one looked to have a slight hairline crack on the inside shoe surface. Is that likely?




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Powerflite
Posted 2018-03-18 9:59 PM (#560131 - in reply to #557894)
Subject: Re: Wilwood residual pressure valve question



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The master cylinder threads are definitely 9/16-20 and 1/2-20. If you have a 9/16-18 nut on there, that's a real problem and likely the cause of all your issues. You may need a new master if the threads are buggered up too much from it. Fix that before you do anything else.
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Beltran
Posted 2018-03-19 6:18 PM (#560169 - in reply to #557894)
Subject: Re: Wilwood residual pressure valve question



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I am puzzled a bit. You said. 'Front brakes use 1/4" line leading to original junction on frame. I plugged the port originally used for the rear line. Rear brakes use 3/16" line,'

Why did you use a smaller line for the front brakes? Then I looked at the picture and I see a few things that concern me. IF your statement above is not a typo, then the smaller line is at the front of the Master and you have a pressure retention valve on it. That should be going to your REAR brakes. Disks need a lot more fluid and volume to work. That big reservoir is meant for your front brakes not the back.
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Beltran
Posted 2018-03-19 6:23 PM (#560170 - in reply to #557894)
Subject: Re: Wilwood residual pressure valve question



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BTW.. your car is beautiful... let me know if you ever want to sell it.
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Ev's62Chrysler
Posted 2018-03-19 7:40 PM (#560173 - in reply to #557894)
Subject: Re: Wilwood residual pressure valve question



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Sorry for any confusion Mark. The larger, rear bowl (primary) is feeding the front calipers and uses larger 1/4" line down to the junction. From there to each front caliper I've retained the original 3/16" lines. The smaller, front bowl (secondary) is feeding the RPV/prop. valve/rear brakes and uses all smaller 3/16" lines. If I confused you on the "I plugged the port originally..." comment, it was that I plugged the unused port on the junction since circuits are now separate (see photo).

Thanks for the comment on the car. It's a bit of a family heirloom from day one, however, and will be passed on to another family member after my time. I just hope one of my girls or nieces/nephews will be interested!





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Beltran
Posted 2018-03-19 11:23 PM (#560183 - in reply to #557894)
Subject: RE: Wilwood residual pressure valve question



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I just checked my setup. Both lines are 3/16th out of the Master. Even the one for the fronts that feeds two seperate lines.

Your master cylinder only has so much volume it can move. If your line to the front brakes is too large your going to have to push much more fluid to get those calipers to move the same amount than if you used a smaller line. It sounds crazy I know but I believe this is correct. This may account for why you have to have so much pedal travel to get your brakes to function.


Edited by Beltran 2018-03-19 11:29 PM




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Beltran
Posted 2018-03-19 11:41 PM (#560184 - in reply to #557894)
Subject: RE: Wilwood residual pressure valve question



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Something to noodle.



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Powerflite
Posted 2018-03-20 12:02 AM (#560186 - in reply to #557894)
Subject: Re: Wilwood residual pressure valve question



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Sorry Beltran, but the change in line diameter in between has no effect on the pedal travel. The only factor that matters is the diameter at the caliper piston, and the diameter at the master piston. Everything in between just moves along, faster or slower depending on it's size. Not only that, but each caliper does go to a 3/16 line after the tee. The only possible issue with using a 1/4" line at the master is if the fitting connection isn't designed for it to seal well. But typically those fittings are quite large and can seal a 3/16" or 1/4" line just as well.

Edited by Powerflite 2018-03-20 12:07 AM
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Beltran
Posted 2018-03-20 8:54 PM (#560221 - in reply to #557894)
Subject: Re: Wilwood residual pressure valve question



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I agree to disagree. The diagram above is not mine. Its from a fluid dynamics discussion. The volume of fluid that is moved when you press on the brake is affected by the diameter of the line. To push the piston the same distance would require more volume with a larger line. The MC has a fixed amount of volume it can move. All things being equal, the only difference between his setup and mine, that I can see, is that line from MC down to the junction block, and the MC itself. Assuming the MC is setup for disk brakes and can move enough volume for calipers, it should work.
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Ev's62Chrysler
Posted 2018-03-21 12:15 AM (#560225 - in reply to #557894)
Subject: Re: Wilwood residual pressure valve question



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Beltran, don't forget, the lines are already filled with fluid, so all we're doing is displacing it. For a given amount of pedal push, it moves a shorter distance through a larger line, or a longer distance through a smaller line. As Powerflite says, all that matters are master and caliper bores and their displacement volumes will match. The fluid in the lines in between is just along for the ride. With the 1/4" line, is it possible there's more trapped air or aerated fluid than a smaller line? At what pressure is expansion an issue? I can't imagine at these pressures. For what it's worth I am using Prestone DOT3 synthetic fluid.

I did purchase the proper adapter for the secondary port (9/16-20 threads) and plugs so I can begin at the master with it solidly blocked at both ports, re-bleed and check verify it's rock solid, then work methodically through the system to find the issue. And I purchased a 3/16" line to replace the 1/4" line. Will update later.



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Ev's62Chrysler
Posted 2018-04-02 7:50 AM (#560934 - in reply to #557894)
Subject: Re: Wilwood residual pressure valve question



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Location: Suwanee, GA
Update:

Changed line from 1/4" to 3/16", re-bled, and was able to get many small bubbles out of the master, but still same issue - low pedal. I took the Raybestos MC apart (the second one, and it leaked) and was somewhat surprised that the secondary piston only has ~1/2" - 9/16" of travel. Is this typical? Not sure of the Cardone MC on the car now. Other than Wilwood, what other MCs with 1.125" bores are you guys using? I bought based on a 1970 New Yorker with power disc/drum.
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Powerflite
Posted 2018-04-02 10:53 AM (#560942 - in reply to #557894)
Subject: RE: Wilwood residual pressure valve question



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I'm using this one from Ebay. It works well, but requires an adapter and a residual pressure valve for the rear, and you must extend the brake rod.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/remote-fill-master-cylinder-street-rod-rat-...

Edited by Powerflite 2018-04-02 10:55 AM




(57NY Firewall Closer.jpg)



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BigBlockMopar
Posted 2018-04-02 3:38 PM (#560973 - in reply to #557894)
Subject: Re: Wilwood residual pressure valve question



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Robert, unrelated to your issue, but do you know what diameter the piston in your Monte Carlo brake caliper has?
I noticed there are multple diameters.

I'm using a 'modern' aluminium MC with 15/16" diameter on my '62 NY wagon, but I have (original '73 Chrysler) calipers with 2.75" pistons, and also don't have the split booster-setup.
A 15/16" MC on your setup would mean an even lower pedal in your case.

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Ev's62Chrysler
Posted 2018-04-02 4:26 PM (#560982 - in reply to #557894)
Subject: Re: Wilwood residual pressure valve question



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BBM,

Monte Carlo calipers are 2.94". The Monte Carlo also used a 1.125" master, but rear wheel cylinders are 15/16", as opposed to my 1.125" cylinders. 1970 Chrysler also uses the same diameters for master, calipers, and wheel cylinders as the Monte Carlo (which is what I bought the master for). Yes, 15/16" master would only make my situation worse.
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Beltran
Posted 2018-04-02 4:42 PM (#560985 - in reply to #557894)
Subject: Re: Wilwood residual pressure valve question



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NMC1521 MC from O'Reilly's. 1.125. Then switched to a 1" Wilwood. Either would have worked. Mined turned out to be a Vacuum problem.
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Beltran
Posted 2018-04-02 4:44 PM (#560986 - in reply to #557894)
Subject: Re: Wilwood residual pressure valve question



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I think the MC I used would not work for you because of the relocated reservoirs
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mstrug
Posted 2018-04-02 5:37 PM (#560993 - in reply to #557894)
Subject: Re: Wilwood residual pressure valve question



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Here is a will wood 15/16" remote MC:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B01N5XMZG5/ref=olp_sort_tax?...

$242 for PN 260-14242-P Any one find it less expensive?
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