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Question about installing new windlace
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-05-04 1:23 AM (#562782)
Subject: Question about installing new windlace



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Location: Lower Mainland BC
I am in the process of installing new windlace so I can complete the installation of the carpet in my 1956 Dodge. I bought new windlace off eBay and I am very happy with the colour I chose and the material that it is made of. My issue that I need some input on is the lack of extension of the "flange".

I am calling the two layers of cloth that are outside the foam core area the "flange". Intend to glue the flange to the body in appropriate areas using a tube of 3M automotive trim adhesive. That is not the problem. My problem is the flange would work better for me if it was a) a bit stiffer and b) a bit longer.

If the flange was stiffer, I would be better able to stuff it up behind the headliner in the area above the doors (patient is a 56 Dodge 4 door sedan). (I am NOT removing the headliner to do this job).

If the flange was longer in the rear most area beside the rear seat and up the "C" pillar and front most area by the kick panel and the "A" pillar cover, I could hold the windlace in place with "Christmas tree" "Tee" clips.

I envision either a thin but tough cardboard or a plastic material (my neighbour suggested an old "Magic Carpet" snow "sled") that I would put between the two cloth bits of the flange, perhaps stapled in place, if not glued. I would use a hole punch to punch a hole for the "tee" to hold the windlace in place before I install the ABS beside the rear seat panels that I have made (and will be painting tomorrow), the "B" pillar covers (soon to be painted), the front kick-panel retainer and the "A"pillar cover (painted yesterday).

But I am really hoping for a Been-There, Done-that (BTDT) suggestion - or just a suggestion.

This is what I am working with:



Edited by 56D500boy 2018-05-04 8:11 AM




(56DodgeWindlaceOldAndNew_1.jpg)



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wizard
Posted 2018-05-04 3:29 AM (#562783 - in reply to #562782)
Subject: Re: Question about installing new windlace



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Posts: 11439
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Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island
The 60' Chrysler uses a piece of sturdy carton which i sewn to the windlace fin (flange) - see my rear door windlace below.....



(IMG_2217-rez.jpg)



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56D500boy
Posted 2018-05-05 10:04 AM (#562831 - in reply to #562783)
Subject: Re: Question about installing new windlace



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Posts: 3364
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Location: Lower Mainland BC
wizard - 2018-05-04 3:29 AM

The 60' Chrysler uses a piece of sturdy carton which i sewn to the windlace fin (flange) - see my rear door windlace below.....


Thanks Sven. That looks like work. I was hoping to glue or staple.

I looked for something to make my extended fin/flange in a major home improvement store (RONA) yesterday but did not find anything. Came close but they were out of stock.

Description
Polystyrene sheet. 36 in. x 80 in.. White. Thickness: 45 thousandth.

https://www.rona.ca/en/polystyrene-sheet
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wizard
Posted 2018-05-05 11:41 AM (#562833 - in reply to #562782)
Subject: Re: Question about installing new windlace



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yes, but I used a very normal sewing machine, so it too me almost 10 minutes. The needle and thread you see was used to bind the thread ends only....
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macedon
Posted 2018-05-05 1:02 PM (#562841 - in reply to #562782)
Subject: Re: Question about installing new windlace



Elite Veteran

Posts: 610
500100
Location: San Antonio, TX
On my 57 Desoto sedan on the A pillar around the dash where there is no access I used vacuum tubing. I just sewed the tubing in the flange and then squeezed it into the gap. Works great.



(windlacehint.JPG)



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1960fury
Posted 2018-05-05 1:24 PM (#562842 - in reply to #562782)
Subject: Re: Question about installing new windlace



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Location: northern germany
yes, vacuum tube, thread from 2007: http://forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=14507&post...
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Justinsane
Posted 2018-05-09 10:44 PM (#563060 - in reply to #562782)
Subject: RE: Question about installing new windlace



2525
Location: Binghamton NY
I went through the same issue when i was installing new windlace on my 56 plymouth. Do you have any photos of inside your car around the door you can post? Is there a recessed area around it with little square tabs that can hold in tack strips so you can staple it? I ended up making a 1 3/4" flange out of template board, then covering it with black duct tape. Drilled 3/16" holes, then used flush panel fasteners to hold it on. Once my panels and garnish moldings are on, the extensions wont be seen.



(20180331_162213 (2).jpg)



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Justinsane
Posted 2018-05-09 11:17 PM (#563062 - in reply to #562782)
Subject: RE: Question about installing new windlace



2525
Location: Binghamton NY
Let me know if you run into troubles, i'd be glad to help. I can get you part numbers for the fasteners i used, if you extend the flange. Don't use thin poster board. Try to get thick template board, but if you go the route of putting in tack strips, you can order leather from most upholstery supply stores or arts and craft shops. Try to get it thick enough to snug tight against those retainer tabs so it sits flush with the panel, then staple the windlace to it. I have a thread going because in doing the interior in my Plymouth right now. http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=68528&...



(20180124_013523 (2).jpg)



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56D500boy
Posted 2018-05-13 8:31 PM (#563316 - in reply to #563062)
Subject: RE: Question about installing new windlace



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Thanks for all your hints, guys. I hope to use at least some (maybe all) of them. Yesterday I picked up a poster frame at Michael's that was on clear out. 20" x 30" and the "glass" is about 0.5 mm thick polystyrene, i.e. good for what I was looking for.

I played with the "C" pillar covers yesterday and did the final fitment for the non-retracting 3-point shoulder belt anchor and then covered them with the lighter of the two vinyls I used on the rear parcel shelf. I also painted the B-pillar covers. Basically I removed any impediment from installing at least the rear door opening windlace.

Still not 100% confident in what I am doing, so I did a dry fit of the new windlace around the right rear door opening. No glue, just the various covers on the more vertical bits and masking tape on the horizontal run and the top of the door. Right or wrong I started at the rear of the opening and moved upwards and across and then down the B-pillar. I just eased the un-extended windlace flange (or "fin") into the grove between the cover and the door frame and then tightened the covers (the beside-the-seat cover and the B-pillar cover). On the horizontal run, I used a 1" putty knife to tuck the windlace flange up into the space between the headliner attachment (metal) frame and the body. (When I use glue I am going to use the coat hook screw as a means of creating pressure on the windlace, glue and body.

In my C-pillar shoulder belt mount thread, I think that I suggested that the C-pillar cover is going to require a strategic screw at the upper, forward most point. Ithink I suggested a counter-sunk flat head (probably pulling back the vinyl, drilling the hole, counter-sinking the hole, adding the screw and then putting the vinyl over the screw with a bit of glue.

One of my neighbours is a professional carpet layer with probably 40 years experience. He also has a 66 Caddy convertible. He dropped by today in the Caddy and after some discussionn, he suggested that he had glues and tools that would be perfect for handling the horizontal run of windlace above the door. "Call me tomorrow". We'll see.

A few notes:

1. I will be cutting and trimming new pieces of the C-pillar transition mouldings so they fit better and then painting them with as chromey a paint that I have. Unless John F. at Big M comes through with some straight bits of 56 Dodge OE door panel stainless trim. He seems to be away ?? (no response to my emails)

2. I don't like the way the factory didn't really have a detail for the area where the upper B-pillar cover moulding meets the headliner and the windlace. Needs some kind of filler strip in my opinion.

3. Looks like I'm going to have to deal with the right rear door panel sooner than later. I seems to be pushing heavily on the windlace at the moment.

Here are some photos from today:



Edited by 56D500boy 2018-05-13 8:38 PM




(TheBpillarShowingTheHalfinchByHalfinchClosedCellFoamInTheOEFoamGroove.jpg)



(TheBpillarShowingTheHalfinchByHalfinchClosedCellFoamInTheOEFoamGroove_2.jpg)



(DryFittingNewWindlaceInA56Dodge4drSedanWithNewAndOrPaintedBandCPillarCovers_noSeatBeltOnBPillar.jpg)



(DryFittingNewWindlaceInA56Dodge4drSedanWithNewAndOrPaintedBandCPillarCovers_noSeatBeltOnBPillar_DoorClosed.jpg)



(DryFittingNewWindlaceInA56Dodge4drSedanWithNewAndOrPaintedBandCPillarCovers_WITHSeatBeltOnBPillar_DoorClosed.jpg)



(DetailOfJunctionOfUpperB_PillarCoverHeadLinerAndWindlace.jpg)



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Attachments TheBpillarShowingTheHalfinchByHalfinchClosedCellFoamInTheOEFoamGroove.jpg (159KB - 14 downloads)
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Attachments DryFittingNewWindlaceInA56Dodge4drSedanWithNewAndOrPaintedBandCPillarCovers_noSeatBeltOnBPillar.jpg (182KB - 14 downloads)
Attachments DryFittingNewWindlaceInA56Dodge4drSedanWithNewAndOrPaintedBandCPillarCovers_noSeatBeltOnBPillar_DoorClosed.jpg (122KB - 13 downloads)
Attachments DryFittingNewWindlaceInA56Dodge4drSedanWithNewAndOrPaintedBandCPillarCovers_WITHSeatBeltOnBPillar_DoorClosed.jpg (123KB - 13 downloads)
Attachments DetailOfJunctionOfUpperB_PillarCoverHeadLinerAndWindlace.jpg (97KB - 17 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-05-15 4:15 PM (#563461 - in reply to #563316)
Subject: RE: Question about installing new windlace



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56D500boy - 2018-05-13 8:31 PM
3. Looks like I'm going to have to deal with the right rear door panel sooner than later. I seems to be pushing heavily on the windlace at the moment.


I just couldn't resist yesterday afternoon. I removed the right rear door panel to find a new can of worms, i.e. surface rust. Oh NO!!

Not wanting to spend the time that I did on the front driver's inner door to take it down to bare metal, I gave myself a time limit of about 40 minutes and went at it with a wire cup brush, a scraper and a vacuum. When that was over, I brought out the Rust Converter and sprayed a coat on the worst areas. When that was dry, I sprayed the interior of the door cavity with grey "ZERO Rust" paint and the visible part of the door with "Zero Rust" "Safety Blue", then I put the car to bed for the night.

I got at is again this AM and scraped a bit more out of the bottom of the door (mostly debris) and vacuumed that out. Then I painted more grey Zero Rust on the inside and Royal Blue Tremclad Rust on the exposed blue area. The OE holes in the bottom of the door are not rusty at all. However, there were two pin holes in the outer door skin that I have dealt with.

Now to actually install the windlace.

Can of Worms , before and after:






(56Dodge4drRightRearDoor_NewCanOfWormsOpened.jpg)



(56Dodge4drRightRearDoor_CanOfWorms_ClosedMostly.jpg)



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56D500boy
Posted 2018-05-16 1:45 AM (#563492 - in reply to #563461)
Subject: RE: Question about installing new windlace



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Carried on after lunch and got the first 9.5 ft (or so) piece of windlace installed. Found out that using that cheap(ish) house brand green masking tape to dry fit the windlace the other day was a mistake - it pulled fibres away from the windlace in some places when I removed it. Next time (including today at times), use the blue 3M tape - doesn't do the same.

Yesterday I got some brown liquid glue in a squeeze bottle (looks like honey) from a neighbour who is/was a carpet layer. He also gave me some clean up solvent that was like Goof-OFF but not as nasty, in case I need it (I did in a couple of spots).

I started at the rear of the opening and moved forward. In retrospect (and for the other rear door and the front doors), I think that it is better to start at the B-pillar and work to the other pillar (C- for the rear, A- for the front). That is because of the way that the B-pillar covers fit together (top over bottom).

I used the carpet-layer's glue, spreading it on the rubber foam that I had installed previously. Then I placed the windlace onto the foam and into the glue, followed by the appropriate cover. To do the horizontal bit, I used some clamps to hold the windlace in general location, trapping it between the headliner frame and the body. Then progressively, I released the windlace, applied some glue to the windlace fin/flange on the body side and stuffed it into the space between the headliner frame and the body and then re-clamped, moving on to the next section.

When I got to the 90 degree bend, I put a cut in the windlace fin/flange so it would bend easier. When I do the next section, I will put a couple cuts in the fin/flange.

On the B-pillar down leg, it was awkward because I was going the wrong direction for the order of the B-pillar covers. I applied glue to the foam and pressed the windlace onto the foam and into the glue, then quickly tried to get the cover plates on. It wasn't easy. At one point the windlace moved and I discovered that the glue became one with the foam and then some black foam transferred to the visible part of the windlace. I cursed but didn't panic.

When I finally got the B-pillar covers on loosely and windlace in place, I tightened them down and then used the carpet layer's clean-up solvent and a clean shop towel to remove the black rubber "bleed" from the windlace.

End result is not perfect but I think pretty good. I still have to deal with the vinyl-covered metal C-pillar cover a bit more. I did use a small screw but it sits up too much. I think I will use a pop rivet instead.

Two photos from today (with the partially re-habbed door - sit needs the sill plate polished and screwed down and new window channels and the door panel redone - no biggy. I have all the materials and I've done it before).



Edited by 56D500boy 2018-05-16 10:33 AM




(1956DodgeRightRearDoorWindlaceInstall_1.jpg)



(1956DodgeRightRearDoorWindlaceInstall_2.jpg)



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56D500boy
Posted 2018-05-18 1:48 AM (#563595 - in reply to #563492)
Subject: RE: Question about installing new windlace



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Posts: 3364
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Location: Lower Mainland BC
With the lessons learned yesterday on the first door opening, I moved on to the right front door.

As per yesterday's revelation, I started at the bottom of the B-pillar and moved up and forward and then down. Before even starting I measured the opening twice with a measuring tape. I got about 9 ft 9 inches so I measured at cut 9ft 10 inches off the original roll of 45 feet of windlace that I had purchased last fall. The rear door was about 9 ft 5 inches or so.

I planned to use the 3M contact cement in a tube for the vertical bits and the carpet layer's "honey" (its glue, not made by bees) for the horizontal bit but I chickened out and just used the "honey". (It is much more forgiving - I think).

By sections from the photo below, this is how I proceeded:

Section 1 - the lower B-pillar: I had the lower B-pillar cover off and handy, complete with screw and screw driver. I had previously applied 1/2" x 1/2" neoprene foam to the factory "grove" so I started by applying a squiggly bead of "honey" on the foam. Then I picked up the windlace and put it in place as best I could. Then I grabbed the lower B-pillar cover and placed it over the fin/flange of the windlace and screw the cover down (one screw) loosely. Then I pushed the windlace flange towards the middle of the B-pillar until I was happy looking at it from both the outside and the inside. I used 1" putty knife to encourage the windlace flange into the space between the cover and the honey covered foam. Then I screwed the cover screw down hard.

Section 2 - the upper B-pillar : Much the same as Section I except I trialled the section in place to determine where the 90 degree bend was going to be and put 3 cuts in the fin/flange before applying the honey (glue) to the foam in the groove. Same deal with the cover (except there were two screws to deal with). Same 1" putty knife encouragement (as needed). The honey glue doesn't set up immediately so there is some time to move the windlace as needed. At the bend, I temporarily held the windlace in place with blue painters masking tape - less brutal on the windlace.

Working bottom to top on the B-pillar was definitely the way to go.

Section 3 - the horizontal section: I anticipated that is would be the tough section and it was. The game plan was to apply honey glue to the fin/flange on the body side of the fin/flange and then stuff it up into the space between the headliner frame and the body. That was more or less how it went but there were some twists. First twist was it was easier to apply the honey glue from outside the car standing up than sitting down like I had done for Sections 1 and 2. The second twist was this part could definitely need a helper/more hands than I had. Luckily my neighbour dropped by and was nice enough to retrieve two of the clamps that he had lent me yesterday but that I didn't use. (I tried by clamps which worked yesterday on the right rear door opening but they didn't work on this front door). With his clamps available, I was able to use a mini pry bar/scraper to lever open the space between the headliner frame and the body, giving me more room to encourage the fin/flange into the groove with the 1" putty knife. Once it was in place, then I used one of his clamps to close the gap and hold the headliner frame to to body, trapping the windlace fin/flange. I broke Section 3 into 3 sub-sections, only applying glue to one small section at a time and moved from the B-pillar area towards the A-pillar. I paused at the A-pillar and clamped the windlace in place. Then I "encouraged" the windlace into the space with the 1" putty knife, working from both sides. Worked well. Took a small break and then got back at it on the A-pillar

Section 4 - the A-pillar section - moving downwards: For the A-pillar I first cut the fin/flange in one spot at the bend from the horizontal to vertical sections. I had some plastic "T" pins at the ready and was planning to used them to hold the windlace in place (instead of the A-pillar cover). I applied honey glue directly on the A-pillar and pushed the windlace onto the glue, using the "T"-pins (and the OE holes to hold the windlace in place - this required having the "top" of the "T" at a right angle to the edge of the fin/flange so one arm of the "T" would pin the fin/flange to the A-pillar. After I got that going, I went back to the bend at the top and manipulated the windlace into a better position. Then I proceeded down the A-pillar to the top of the dash and the Start of Section 5.

Section 5 - the section beside the dash: I think that the Factory Manual for windlace installation says to loose or remove the dash. I don't think so Tim. I used my mini pry bar/scraper to pry open a space and made sure that worked before I applied honey glue to the A-pillar side of the flange. Then I pried open the space and slid/cajoled the fin/flange into the abyss. Needed a little putty knife encouragement and even a pit more honey glue before all was well.

Section 6 - the home stretch - the final bit - the bit that should have been easy peasy with the kick panel edge frame to hold the windlace down: Well, it wasn't as easy as I hoped but it got done. I had the kick panel frame off but handy along with it's 5 or so screws. I applied honey glue to the 3/8" x 3/8" neoprene foam previously applied to the OE groove. Then I pushed the windlace onto the foam and glue and quickly tried to get the kick-panel frame screwed in place before all hell broke loose. Apparently the windlace did not get the memo and it decided to NOT stay where it was told to stay. A bit of cursing at that point - mostly because some glue got onto the windlace (I subsequently got it off). Eventually a truce was declared and with the kick-panel frame in loose position, I encourage the windlace to stay where it was wanted with the 1" putty knife, working top to bottom, tightening the kickpanel attachment screws as I worked my way down to the door sill. When I was happy(ish), I brought out the sill plate and decided where to cut the excess windlace (which as about 5" or 6" which is weird because I thought that I had added only 1" or so to the amount required.

Final clean-up included wiping off stray glue that had got on the windlace (not much) or the door frame/jamb (even less) with the carpet layers' light solvent.

The photos below show the Sections as described above and the final product with the door shut - another door panel needs fixing - but I am not opening that can of worms right now.




(56DodgeRightFrontDoorWindlaceInstallationSections.jpg)



(56DodgeRightFrontDoorWindlaceInstallation_Final(ish).jpg)



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56D500boy
Posted 2018-05-19 12:41 PM (#563645 - in reply to #563595)
Subject: RE: Question about installing new windlace



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Location: Lower Mainland BC
Did the driver's door yesterday using the Section 1 through 6 techniques. Worked reasonably well. Some slight variations:

Section 1 - my neighbour had dropped by to check on progress so I had him hold the windlace at the top of Section 1 while I got the lower B-pillar cover on. There are several times when the additional hands of a helper would aid this installation. That was one of them.

Section 3 - Once I got the upper corner of Section 2 in place, I ended up working standing up on the outside of the car pretty much the whole distance across. I couldn't get the clamps to work on the driver's side so ended up using blue painter's masking tape to hold the windlace in position. I also tossed the "tail" of the windlace (i.e. the material for Sections 4, 5 and 6 on the roof of the car to a) get it out of the way and b) to take the weight off the windlace in Section 3. Once I had worked the Section 3 windlace from outside the car, I got inside the car and kneeling on one knee to keep quite high in the door frame, I used the 1" putty knife to push the windlace fin/flange further into the space between the body and the headliner frame. Bit by bit, moving across Section 3 and then back again until I was happy(ish). This required adjusting the painter's masking tape to keep the upward pressure on the windlace.

Section 4 - I again used the plastic "T" pins in the OE holes. My earlier worries about the flange/fin not being long enough were totally unfounded. In fact I had to notch the fin/flange to fit around the "T" pin (I had tried a hole punch on the fin/flange yesterday but that failed).

Section 5 - A bit of a surprise: the gap between the end of the dash and "A" pillar was more than large enough to fit the windlace fin/flange into the "groove" without any prying of anything. In fact today, I am going to check whether I need to jamb anything (foam weatherstripping gap "rope" (?)) in there to help hold the windlace in place. It seemed fine yesterday but....

Section 6 - pretty much as planned/expected. The windlace didn't magically want to stay in place while I got the kick panel retention frame in place. Once I had it in place (loosely), I used the putty knife to push the windlace into the groove and then tightened the kick panel frame attachment screws one at a time, working top to bottom.

I think both Sections 1, 2 and 6 might be better done with the 3M trim adhesive contact cement - I might try that on the last door opening, the driver's rear door. Maybe today if the rain holds off. ( I work outside on this stuff).



Edited by 56D500boy 2018-05-19 12:43 PM
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56D500boy
Posted 2018-05-21 2:22 AM (#563742 - in reply to #563645)
Subject: RE: Question about installing new windlace



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Posts: 3364
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Location: Lower Mainland BC
56D500boy - 2018-05-19 12:41 PM
I think both Sections 1, 2 and 6 might be better done with the 3M trim adhesive contact cement - I might try that on the last door opening, the driver's rear door. Maybe today if the rain holds off. ( I work outside on this stuff). :)


Got to the driver's rear door. I did get brave and used the 3M trim contact cement on Sections 1 and 2. Started with Section 1 applying the adhesive to both the fin/flange and the 1/2" x 1/2" neoprene foam in the OE foam grove (B-pillar covers off). After a bit of time to tack up, I pressed the windlace fin/flange onto the foam and then installed the lower B-pillar cover. This was easier than previous attempts with the "honey glue" because the windlace didn't want to move. That's the good news. The bad news was there was little chance of adjusting the windlace with the 1" putty knife.

Then I did Section 2 the same way after predeterming where the 90 deg bend was going to be and putting three cuts in the fin/flange in the bend so the windlace would bend easier. Then I applied the 3M contact adhesive, tacked it up and then pushed the windlace into place and put on the upper B-pillar cover.

Because Section 3 needs some "adjustment" with the putty knife, I used the "honey glue", working in sections of about 8" at a time. I used the spring clamps strategically to hold the headliner frame to the body, trapping the windlace while I slowly "adjusted" the windlace, pushing the fin/flange into the available space. Then I held the windlace in place with strips of blue painter's masking tape from the roof down, over the windlace and the up on to the headliner. Then I would release the clamp and move onto the next 8" section until I hit the end of Section 3, clamping, gluing, adjusting and taping as I went.

For Section 4, I trialled the windlace in place and marked the location for the "T" pins. Then I used scissors to cut perpendicular slits into the fin/flange. Then I applied the honey glue to the fin/flange and pushed the windlace onto the C-pillar, pinning the windlace to the pillar with the T-pins as I went.

When I hit the area where the holes for the T-pins stopped and the foam grove started, I thought I would use the 3M glue down to the bottom. But first I applied 3/8" x 3/8" neoprene foam weatherstripping into the OE grove (which is shallower than the B-pillar grove which needed the 1/2" x 1/2" foam). I decided to start with a small section with 3M contact cement. This became Section 5. At that point I trialed the painted-ABS beside the rear seat cover on the lower C-pillar. I wasn't happy with the way things fit and decided some adjustment was needed. I peeled the windlace back off Section 5 (it wasn't pretty) and applied some more cement and re-positioned the windlace. Then I held it in place with strips of blue masking tape. I also decided to finish off with the honey glue.

So the last section became Section 6. I applied the honey glue to the fin/flange and pushed the windlace into position. I then held it in place with blue painter's tape and installed the ABS cover. Not fully happy with the fit, I used the 1" putty knife to push the fin/flange further into the space between the ABS-cover and the lower C-pillar. Eventually I was happy (ish).

During this process, I discovered that the windlace was quite fragile and would "Fluff" up if it was mishandled even in the slightest. Doesn't bode well for wear and tear. I have about 5 ft left over and I think that I am going to trial some kind of clear coating or finish on the windlace to toughen it up.

When that was done, I turned to the final polishing of the four sill plates which I will install tomorrow (well at least the rear ones if I don't finalize the position of the front carpet tomorrow).

I also have to finalize the installation of the vinyl-covered metal C-pillar cover and it's attachment to the C-pillar and the lower edge of the headliner.

The photos from today:



Edited by 56D500boy 2018-05-21 2:24 AM




(56DodgeLeftRearDoorWindlaceInstall_Sections.jpg)



(56DodgeLeftRearDoorWindlaceInstall.jpg)



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Attachments 56DodgeLeftRearDoorWindlaceInstall_Sections.jpg (160KB - 12 downloads)
Attachments 56DodgeLeftRearDoorWindlaceInstall.jpg (150KB - 12 downloads)
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