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Optimum tire temp
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59 in Calif
Posted 2018-09-09 3:08 PM (#569860)
Subject: Optimum tire temp


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Location: Hayward, Calif
Hey Guys, I'm still having tire issues with these new raggity *ss BFGoodrich (Coker) tires. So decided to try a different approach. I checked the tire press cold before I drove it. 30 PSI. After a short drive down the freeway up to 70 MPH. I checked them again. 31PSI. I also checked the tire temp with a infrared thermometer. 87 & 84 degrees right side of car. 111 & 112 degrees on the left side. The sun was shining on that side of the car. Outside temp about 70 degrees. I aired tires up to 32 PSI and drove again, but backed into the driveway to put sun on other side of the car. The tire press came up to 32.3 to 33 psi. Rt side of car tire temp didn't change much, 86 & 87 degrees. Left side now in the shade didn't change much either. Front tire up 2 degrees to 113 and rear down 6 degrees from 112. Just me and the dog (20 lbs) and 1/2 tank of gas. I'm going to search around, see if I can find temp rating of that tire. I would expect these figures to change driving inland where outside temp runs 90+ degrees. The tire show 35 PSI max press. Anyone have any thoughts on this subject ? Thanks, Jerry
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b5rt
Posted 2018-09-09 6:43 PM (#569867 - in reply to #569860)
Subject: Re: Optimum tire temp



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Are these tires bias ply or radial? The max press of 35 PSI makes me believe they're radials. The factory had a recommended pressure of 22 psi for most and 24 psi for some others, with bias plies of course. That said, I think you need to take this recommended lower pressure into consideration and find a happy medium. I would suggest a starting point of 28 PSI cold. And consider going as low as 26 PSI cold.

My Coronet has BFG made radials and I'm running 2 different size tires. I've settled on 30 for the fronts and 27-28 for the larger rears.

I'd also suggest a quality pressure gauge. My favorite is an old gauge I found at a swap meet that sort of "stores" the pressure reading until you hit a button to release it.
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59 in Calif
Posted 2018-09-09 8:04 PM (#569872 - in reply to #569860)
Subject: Re: Optimum tire temp


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These are radials. P215/75R15 on Tru-spoke chrome wire wheels. I sent one tire/wheel ass'y back to Tru-spoke twice at $50 with Fed-X each way. These tires have been balanced 4 times with only 1600 miles. They sent me a load force read out showing tire and wheel OK. Each time they get balanced they claim the previous shop didn't mount the wheel on the balance machine correctly. I stood right there and watched both shops mount those wheels exactly the same. The last time they got balanced it was an improvement. But still not a smooth ride at 65mph and up. I have Firestone radials on my 65 New Yorker max press is 44PSI. I have 38 psi in the front and 36 psi in rear, P235/75R15. This car rides smooth as silk at any speed !!!!! I even went so far as to put that set of tires and wheels on my New Yorker. My smooth as silk ride was gone and at 65 - 80 mph it felt like tire balance problem. I returned those tires/wheels back to the 59 Dodge. If a radial tire can't take more than 35psi I question it's creditability. Lower press's would only make matters worse. To start with, creating a overheating problem and tire squesching and rolling in a turn drastically affecting control of the car. I have had this press gauge for many years also because of it's accuracy. These tires are BFGoodrich Silvertown radials with a wide white wall. At $300 a tire. If I had known Goodrich was in bed with Coker I never would have bought these sh*t tires. Jerry
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Shep
Posted 2018-09-09 8:19 PM (#569875 - in reply to #569872)
Subject: Re: Optimum tire temp



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Common issue here, if these are lug centric wheels, meaning the mounting hole is larger than the hub, the wheels are then centered by the lugs and studs. This requires balancing using a special lug centric adapter, not the cone adapter. Just went thru this with Cragar SS wheels in my shop. To add I had Coker Silvertowns for years on my previously owned 55 New Yorker, running 35 psi, rode and handled fine.

Edited by Shep 2018-09-09 8:56 PM
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59 in Calif
Posted 2018-09-09 10:50 PM (#569887 - in reply to #569860)
Subject: Re: Optimum tire temp


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Yes these wheels are lug centric. I watched both shops use that special adapter to get centered off the stud holes. Were your previous Silvertown tires rated higher than 35 PSI max ? I also found out that these tires are ' handmade '. Meaning there were absolutely NO computers involved in their manufacture. So if I pump these tires up to 35 psi max press, are they going to blow apart on me ? That 59 Dodge only weights about 4000 lbs. Add another 600 lbs for 2 people and a full tank of gas. These tires ride smooth up to about 60 mph, then the vibration starts and gradually get more noticeable at 70 mph. I asked Tru-spoke why they don't make these wire wheels hub centric. I was told, then they wouldn't be able to put them together. Jerry
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Shep
Posted 2018-09-10 6:45 AM (#569893 - in reply to #569887)
Subject: Re: Optimum tire temp



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Have the wheels been checked for excess lateral or horizontal run out on the car? My 55 weighed about 4200#, plus passengers, never had any issues at 35#, and they were actually a little under sized at 225, not 235's.
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59 in Calif
Posted 2018-09-10 10:39 AM (#569901 - in reply to #569860)
Subject: Re: Optimum tire temp


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Location: Hayward, Calif
No, haven't been able to find anyone who can balance the tires on the car. Seems to be a thing of the past. But the wheels have been checked for radial runout. The print out shows .008 on inside of wheel and .003 on the outside of the wheel. So that shows the wheel is .008 and .003 out of round. The lateral printout shows .034 inside and .033 outside. That shows the wheel is wobbling side to side .034 and .033. Loaded runout on the tire is .026. This is the print out off a Hunter Balance machine taken by Tru-spoke. I have this tire/wheel mounted on left rear of car. Can't put this tire/wheel on front as it makes the car pull to the left and vibration is horrible. I took this tire/wheel off and put the spare tire, ( same size tire on a steel wheel) on it, at 75mph still slightly noticeable but not nearly as bad as when that tire/wheel in question is on the car. 30 psi tire press cold when this was done. These are 15" tires and wheels as I like the look better than the original 14" tires and wheels. Jerry
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LostDeere59
Posted 2018-09-10 5:31 PM (#569918 - in reply to #569860)
Subject: RE: Optimum tire temp



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If those wheels do not hub center everything you do is a waste of time and money.

Rather than fool around with tire pressures, swapping wheels to different cars, and re-balancing the same wheels over and over, do what needs to be done first.

Take either that car, or some accurate measurements, to a competent auto custom/machine shop and have good quality hub centering adapters made.

Once you get those wheels accurately centered on the hubs you will likely find that most, if not all, of your issue goes away.

Regarding tire pressures.

The entire reason tire pressures are specified cold is because once you expose a tire to any external influence - rolling, sunlight, hot pavement, etc - the tire pressure will change very quickly, and often drastically.

Manufacturers know the only time tire pressure is an accurate reflection of the tires actual inflation level is when the tire has been static and completely unexposed to external heating influences - typically first thing in the morning before the car is driven and/or the sun has time to heat the tires.

As you discovered simply exposing one side of the car to sunlight will dramatically alter the inflation pressure.

My personal feeling is to start somewhere near the maximum rated pressure, and then monitor the tire wear. If you're wearing the center of the tire drop the pressure a few PSI, if not keep it where it's at. Of course this assumes your alignment is good and no other factors are causing a tire wear issue.

Another thing about tire pressures - everyone thinks they should set the pressure to some recommended number (door sticker, service manual, etc). The problem with this is that the pressure is only at that number when you set it. Because tires all loose some air over time the pressure starts to decrease as soon as you set it, and your actual AVERAGE tire pressure is the average of that number and what you read the next time you check the tires. To me, I'd rather set them a tad high, and know my average between checks is close to what I want.


Gregg
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59 in Calif
Posted 2018-09-10 7:55 PM (#569923 - in reply to #569860)
Subject: Re: Optimum tire temp


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Expensive hub centering devices aren't going to do *hit. The problem is with the tires !! Not the wheels !! And yes the best time to check tire press is when tire is cold and not exposed to sun lite. I was merely checking different press's and tire temp to see what kind of readings I'd get. I prefer to run a tire with as much press as it will take, without making the car ride like a hay wagon. I haven't blow a tire yet. But I haven't had to deal with these *hit BF Goodrich tires before either. Jerry
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b5rt
Posted 2018-09-10 9:24 PM (#569929 - in reply to #569860)
Subject: Re: Optimum tire temp



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I'd figure out which one(s) are the root cause. Swap some other wheel/tires on the front and see what happens, then do the rears. Process of deduction to figure out the culprit.
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59 in Calif
Posted 2018-09-10 10:26 PM (#569932 - in reply to #569860)
Subject: Re: Optimum tire temp


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Location: Hayward, Calif
I've already done that. It mostly comes down to one tire/wheel which I have sent to Tru-spoke twice. they claim it is within tolerences. I firmly believe the problem is in that tire as the wheel read out is minimal. Which is why I started playing around with tire pressure and temp. Whatever the problem is with that tire it starts showing up at 60+ mph. I expect that tire to come apart in about 5K - 10K miles. I just hope it doesn't do too much damage when it does. I took that tire/wheel off and put the spare tire, mounted on a steel wheel on in its place. Had the car up to 75mph. Highest speed I've ever had it up to. A very slight tire balance vibration noticed. I contributed that to the rest of those *hit Goodrich tires Jerry
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60 dart
Posted 2018-09-10 11:49 PM (#569935 - in reply to #569860)
Subject: Re: Optimum tire temp



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have you put the suspect tire on a regular good 15" wheel and tried it-------------------------------------------------------later
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wizard
Posted 2018-09-11 1:07 AM (#569939 - in reply to #569860)
Subject: Re: Optimum tire temp



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Try nitrogene in combination with balancing beads.

I have noticed that many of the aftermarket rims/wheels are neither lug centric, nor centrum hole centered

Too much balancing weights on a wheel will cause unbalance at a certain speed due to their own weight or if two or more wheels will end up with the balancing weights in the same position during a drive.

Balancing beads will cure this situation, but still if the tire itself has heave spots, you might still notice some vibrations (which will go away if you increse/decrease speed by a couple of mph.

Hub centering adapters might help, but if the center hole is out of center they will make it worse.
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59 in Calif
Posted 2018-09-11 10:35 AM (#569952 - in reply to #569860)
Subject: Re: Optimum tire temp


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Location: Hayward, Calif
I have heard of these balancing beads before. Where would I find them ?
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59 in Calif
Posted 2018-09-11 10:59 AM (#569954 - in reply to #569860)
Subject: Re: Optimum tire temp


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Location: Hayward, Calif
Hey Chuck, No I haven't tried that yet. Mainly because Tru-spoke has done the balancing on that tire. I talked to that guy (he seems genuinely concerned about trying to fix this situation) about what that tire could be doing under a normal load and tire heat conditions. He did cite a personal experience of a tire failure acting just like this. Unfortunetly there is no way to test a tire that way. The balance machines they use now don't spin the tire up to road speeds like they did back in the day with bias ply tires. I have thought about buying another name brand set of tires, but I spent $1200 on these tires. That thought is a bit hard to swallow. Jerry
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wizard
Posted 2018-09-11 11:23 AM (#569956 - in reply to #569860)
Subject: Re: Optimum tire temp



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The balancing beads should be available in any well equipped tyre shop. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq263AYgyYg

Or you can buy the beads on the net.

The nitrogene will give you the same tire pressure no matter the temperature.

Normally, the rims/wheels are never balanced at all and all is "taken care of" by the balancing of the tire. Naturally, if a rim/wheel should have a heavy spot and the tire also have it's heavy spot in the same position - it will be next to impossible to get it balanced properly.

In those cases, the tire should be rotated 90º, 180º 270º for to find the best position.


Also, if self adhesive weights are used, mounted on the inside of the rim instead of "normal" weights mounted on the periphery of the rim, the balancing weights must be heavier and this creates problems.


The farer out on the rim, the lesser the weight, the lesser vibrations.


This is where the balancing beads comes in - they act directly on the inside of the tire, as far out as possible - they fall down when you stop the car - they will automatically seek the correct possitions when the car is driven - they will keep the tire balanced for the life time of the tire.


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Powerflite
Posted 2018-09-11 4:36 PM (#569970 - in reply to #569860)
Subject: Re: Optimum tire temp



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The right answer is the one that you don't want to hear. You have at least one crap tire. Purchase a pair of diamondbacks (or Cali tires & whiten them every month or two) and relegate that stinking piece of utter crap to spare duty or sell it to be used on someone's trailer queen. As the other ones go bad (probably sooner rather than later) purchase more diamondbacks to replace them. Sometimes you have to chalk it up to experience and move on. Diamondbacks and Cali tires are the only ones I know of that make good whitewall radials. Try something else, and you are taking a chance on an expensive set of tires.
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1960fury
Posted 2018-09-23 10:04 AM (#570612 - in reply to #569860)
Subject: Re: Optimum tire temp



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That thread brings up a question that I had for many years. Were wide white sidewalls, in the days of inferior tire/rubber technology, functional? I think so. Wide whitewall tires look great, yes, but what was the reason to use white tires in the first place? Maybe this is common knowledge, I just never heard about that.

Edited by 1960fury 2018-09-23 11:52 AM
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wizard
Posted 2018-09-23 10:23 AM (#570614 - in reply to #569860)
Subject: Re: Optimum tire temp



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I'm out on a limb here, but I think that the old tires where all white from the beginning
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60 dart
Posted 2018-09-23 6:31 PM (#570639 - in reply to #570612)
Subject: Re: Optimum tire temp



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1960fury - 2018-09-23 10:04 AM

That thread brings up a question that I had for many years. Were wide white sidewalls, in the days of inferior tire/rubber technology, functional? I think so. Wide whitewall tires look great, yes, but what was the reason to use white tires in the first place? Maybe this is common knowledge, I just never heard about that.



in the early days of rubber tires the color "was" white . i don't remember the reason for black , other than cost . so how'd they
change . carbon was added to make em black . nowadays the best example of old white tires can be seen on untouched barn find
bicycle tires and motorcycles . as far as whitewalls being functional , i'd say to a point but not totally as they would have to be
added during the treading process or later as the 2 colors need to be separate and weight adjusted side to side . maybe it's possible
that is the problem with the added white wall of today's tires ---------------------------------------------later
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1960fury
Posted 2018-09-23 7:41 PM (#570646 - in reply to #569860)
Subject: Re: Optimum tire temp



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Actually, from what I googled, the first rubber tires were black and I always thought rubber requires carbon black in order to be stable. I just thought whitewalls evolved as they do not heat up as much in bright sunlight. ?
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wizard
Posted 2018-09-24 12:33 AM (#570657 - in reply to #569860)
Subject: Re: Optimum tire temp



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The natural color of rubber is white
http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2011/07/making-tires-black-...
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BigBlockMopar
Posted 2018-09-24 3:36 AM (#570659 - in reply to #569860)
Subject: Re: Optimum tire temp



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I've driven around a few years on 15" Tru-Spoke wirewheels and BF Goodrich thin white-line tires (non-Coker crap) on my '65 300 convertible.
They had a large offset to the outside of the car, which let me to use a narrower '67 Dodge Charger rear axle to keep the wheels tucked behind the fender skirts nicely.
While I liked their looks, they always rode 'rough', mainly because of the lug-mounting and their weight.
Occassionaly I swapped on a set of aluminium wheels, only to be 'blown away' on how different and smooth the car drove. Completely changed the car.

Until one day I had enough of the crappy ride they gave and simply sold the wirewheels and never looked back.
In my case it was the wirewheels that made the drive lousy.

Just saying you could always just sell stuff and use the money to get something better.
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1960fury
Posted 2018-09-24 9:13 AM (#570679 - in reply to #570657)
Subject: Re: Optimum tire temp



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wizard - 2018-09-24 12:33 AM

The natural color of rubber is white
http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2011/07/making-tires-black-...


This is like saying the natural color of oil is black (in a discussion about motor oils). Refined "Rubber", as used for tire-production, is usually black, as carbon black is required to make it more durable.

Edited by 1960fury 2018-09-24 9:14 AM
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