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Tricks for changing Valve Stem Seals on an early 55-58 Hemi? Jump to page : 1 Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page] | View previous thread :: View next thread |
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56D500boy |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9904 Location: Lower Mainland BC | Sometimes when I start my 56 Dodge D500 315 hemi, I get a bit of a puff of smoke. I put that down to leaking valve stems seals (? - at least that is my thought). *IF* I was to change the seals, I am thinking that I could potentially do so by sliding the rocker over, against the spring while I proceeded to compress the spring(s), remove the keeper and the top hat, then spring(s) and then the worn valve stem seal (I would start with that before removing the head(s) to do the guides, etc. (a whole new can of worms if the head(s) were off). Is this a valid trick with these old hemis? What I would be looking at with the valve cover(s) off (the rockers slide towards the springs): What the parts manual shows. (PS: I can NOT find PNs for both the intake and exhaust valves just the intake (??), 1558 025 (via 9-39-11): Edited by 56D500boy 2019-01-31 3:51 PM (55-58HemiValveTrainDiagram.jpg) Attachments ---------------- 55-58HemiValveTrainDiagram.jpg (176KB - 269 downloads) | ||
mikes2nd |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 5006 | Hmm your going to have to get the springs compressed to get the keeper off. So then you can pull seals over the valves... I think you'd have to pull the rocker shafts. If you're strong simply push the spring down by almost standing on them? | ||
mikes2nd |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 5006 | Some people fill the cylinder piston top with rope. Then push the piston up a bit, make it snug so you dont damage anything. Edited by mikes2nd 2019-01-31 9:14 PM | ||
Powerflite |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9670 Location: So. Cal | Your original valve seals aren't worn because they don't exist. These early hemi motors didn't use valve seals. I know this for a fact on a Chrysler, but believe it is true on a Dodge & DeSoto as well. There are cheesy umbrella seals available in a Fel-pro kit that you can put on there, but the factory didn't use them. | ||
Shep |
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Expert Posts: 3396 Location: Chestertown, NY ( near Lake George) | Location of the intake valve, unless the guides were extremely worn, eliminate the need for conventional seals. Make sure the drains are not blocked in the rear of the head. If you remove the rocker shafts you will loosen the head and need new head gaskets, I pulled the heads on my 55, machined the guides for PC seals, this was done during a complete rebuild, but again, really not necessary. The rings were bad in my engine. Edited by Shep 2019-01-31 6:17 PM | ||
56D500boy |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9904 Location: Lower Mainland BC | Powerflite - 2019-01-31 5:00 PM Your original valve seals aren't worn because they don't exist. These early hemi motors didn't use valve seals. I know this for a fact on a Chrysler, but believe it is true on a Dodge & DeSoto as well. There are cheesy umbrella seals available in a Fel-pro kit that you can put on there, but the factory didn't use them. Shep - 2019-01-31 5:25 PM Location of the intake valve, unless the guides were extremely worn, eliminate the need for conventional seals. Make sure the drains are not blocked in the rear of the head. If you remove the rocker shafts you will loosen the head and need new head gaskets, I pulled the heads on my 55, machined the guides for PC seals, this was done during a complete rebuild, but again, really not necessary. The rings were bad in my engine. Thanks guys. I certainly learned something from your answers. When I had the valve covers off in 2017, I cleaned out the top of the head. It was pretty clean and there was nothing clogging the rear drain hole. Bottomline is I'm going to ignore the odd puff of blue on start-up (which is typically after the car has been sitting for a few days). It clears up in a few seconds, so I don't think it is that serious. I thought if valve seals were easy, and there was a trick to make replacing them easier, I would tackle the job. As it is, I don't see a positive benefit/cost ratio. All downside/little upside. Edited by 56D500boy 2019-02-01 12:52 AM | ||
Stroller |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 371 | 56D a compressor and the spark plug hose fitting of a compression tester. Plugs out 1 hole at a time hook up the air to the inserted hose. Smack the top of the valves to break the keepers loose. Use either jaw type spring compressor or the bar thing you attach at the rocker stud and compress the spring, pull the keepers, let loose the spring compressor or bar, take off springs remove seal, install seal the rest is reverse, again 1 hole at a time. | ||
57chizler |
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Expert Posts: 3777 Location: NorCal | This tool works on motors with rocker shafts. The blue smoke not only leaves oily deposits in the exhaust system but it cakes carbon on the head of the valves. It's worth installing umbrella seals IMHO. Edited by 57chizler 2019-02-17 6:32 PM (VS Comp Cams 5324 (Small).jpg) Attachments ---------------- VS Comp Cams 5324 (Small).jpg (17KB - 232 downloads) | ||
56D500boy |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9904 Location: Lower Mainland BC | Thanks for the input guys. | ||
57burb |
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Expert Posts: 3967 Location: DFW, TX | There is no exhaust valve oil seal. The exhaust valve experiences pressure, not vacuum, so no oil will get sucked in down the valve guide. But there absolutely is an OEM intake valve seal used on these engines. That is an umbrella seal in the exploded diagram, 9-39-11. Chryslers use them too (pics shown) Replacing those seals is a big-time operation. You're not just going to slide the rocker arm down the shaft and get at the valve seals with a set of wrenches. I looked at several variants of the service manuals I have, and none refer to doing this job with the heads installed. They would really need to come out to be able to get the proper access with a spring compressor. And at that point, the job is going to involve checking and replacing some other items (valve and guide diameter, spring pressure, valve seat wear, etc.) I would suggest holding off on replacing the seals for when you have a more urgent need than a puff of blue smoke. But if you do decide to tackle it in-car, let us know how it works out! (chry1.JPG) (chry2.JPG) Attachments ---------------- chry1.JPG (20KB - 234 downloads) chry2.JPG (39KB - 282 downloads) | ||
wayfarer |
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Elite Veteran Posts: 888 Location: Peoples Republic of Oregon | Much depends on the amount of smoke produced at start-up. Just a little whiff, or a cloud that blocks the sun? In oem configuration the intake valve does use a seal but in an old engine the rubber has been baked so many times it crumbles and the bits and pieces end up in the oil pan or block the drain-back holes. As valve stem wear increases and allows for oil to pass through then it is probably time for a valve job. Do it right, do it once. | ||
56D500boy |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9904 Location: Lower Mainland BC | wayfarer - 2019-02-18 11:04 AM Much depends on the amount of smoke produced at start-up. Just a little whiff, or a cloud that blocks the sun? Just a whiff that clears in a few seconds. Not every day or every start up. Typically if I haven't started the car in a few days. When I get back from holidays next week, I will note how much if any smoke happens after 3 weeks of no starting. | ||
60 dart |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 8947 Location: WHEELING,WV.>>>HOME OF WWVA | years ago i welded an air fitting to an old gutted spark plug , hooked it up to my air hose full pressure . worked perfectly ----------------------------------------------later | ||
56D500boy |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9904 Location: Lower Mainland BC | 56D500boy - 2019-02-18 8:09 PM Just a whiff that clears in a few seconds. Not every day or every start up. Typically if I haven't started the car in a few days. When I get back from holidays next week, I will note how much if any smoke happens after 3 weeks of no starting. :) Well, I am back from mostly sunny but cool (60 F) southern California (back to 6 C with some snow covering the ground) and could not, try as I might, resist firing up the old dear after 23 or more days of sitting in the garage, lonely and dark. Had to give it a few pumps of the gas pedal while it was cranking (cranked real nicely with the newly refurbed OE-style starter) and then if fired and cleared nicely. A small puff of blue when it did start but it cleared within a few seconds. So I think, until I find a way to do the seal(s) without taking the head off, I will follow the old adage, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" (and leave the sleeping dog alone) | ||
wizard |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 13049 Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | I use a good quality rope, turn the engine to to compression cycle and feed in the rope through the spark plug hole. Turn the engine further until the rope blocks the piston against the valves. Now a homemade valve spring compressor can be used for to remove the springs. | ||
58coupe |
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Expert Posts: 1740 Location: Alaska | Sven, you forgot to tell him to leave the end of the rope out so it is easy to remove but maybe that was obvious. | ||
wizard |
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Board Moderator & Exner Expert 10K+ Posts: 13049 Location: Southern Sweden - Sturkö island | Yes, sorry The sparkplug/compressed air method is risky if the engine isn't blocked - the pressure might turn the engine over and presto, two valves falling down. Also, older engines usually have some blow-by, so the compressor needs to have some extra capacity. So, the air method works good, but take safety measures with a good compressor and a safe blocking of the engine | ||
ABloch |
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Expert Posts: 1476 Location: Pacific Northwest | I was thinking of doing this job as well. In order to get the rocker shaft out of the way though one would need to remove the head bolts thereby losing the compression of the head gasket. I'm going to do a compression test and see if it is really necessary at this juncture. | ||
56D500boy |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9904 Location: Lower Mainland BC | 56D500boy - 2019-02-27 3:37 PM Well, I am back from mostly sunny but cool (60 F) southern California (back to 6 C with some snow covering the ground) and could not, try as I might, resist firing up the old dear after 23 or more days of sitting in the garage, lonely and dark. Had to give it a few pumps of the gas pedal while it was cranking (cranked real nicely with the newly refurbed OE-style starter) and then if fired and cleared nicely. A small puff of blue when it did start but it cleared within a few seconds. So I think, until I find a way to do the seal(s) without taking the head off, I will follow the old adage, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" (and leave the sleeping dog alone) Okay. Just back from a 3 week (+ 4 day) trip to Europe (Milan, Istanbul, the Italian lakes and Nice) and just had to start the old (56 Dodge) girl. Started fine. Not one bit of oil smoke despite sitting for that time. The weird thing is I haven't had any smoking on start-up or restart since I re-tightened the valve covers a few weeks ago. I thought I was crazy. Makes no sense to me but I am happy. Bottom Line: Valve seals are off the list of things to do. (For now ) Edited by 56D500boy 2019-06-04 6:52 AM | ||
56D500boy |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9904 Location: Lower Mainland BC | 56D500boy - 2019-01-31 12:50 PM Sometimes when I start my 56 Dodge D500 315 hemi, I get a bit of a puff of smoke. I never did anything with the valve seals (yet). The problem is still there but rarely. Until today, when things changed slightly. I thought that I had started the blue beast up about 2 (3?) weeks ago but there weren't any big issue, smoke-wise. Today, I started it (it was nice enough out (Sunny, dry, 43 F) to take the car out for a short spin and run some errands). Smoked on start-up again. I thought it was clearing but while I was talking to a neighbour, the exhaust was in the sunlight and I could see a blue tinge for a several minutes while the engine warmed up. Initially the engine was running a bit rough and it almost stopped running at idle but I let it go, untouched. As the engine smoothed out and picked up RPM on its own, the smoking went away. So....I am thinking more than seals. I am starting to think maybe rings that seal better as the engine comes up to temperature (??). Otherwise the car ran fine (enough). Edited by 56D500boy 2022-01-31 9:54 PM | ||
local2Ed |
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Extreme Veteran Posts: 580 | Does the car smoke out the exhaust on deceleration from a higher speed? If so it could be valve stem seals or guides, I've read. You might be seeing running a little rich at idle until the choke fully opens as the car warms up. | ||
Viper Guy |
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Expert Posts: 2003 Location: Branson, MO | Blue smoke generally is a sign of "oil" smoke. Just out of curiosity, what weight oil are you using and how fresh is it? Edited by Viper Guy 2022-02-01 11:34 PM | ||
56D500boy |
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Expert 5K+ Posts: 9904 Location: Lower Mainland BC | Viper Guy - 2022-02-01 11:28 AM Blue smoke generally is a sign of "oil" smoke. Just our of curiosity, what weight oil are you using and how fresh is it? Thanks. I have owned and driven a car of some form since 1967 (is that 55 years?) so I know what different exhaust colours probably mean: 1. Whispy grey = probably just water vapour condensing, no biggy 2. Fairly think white (and sickly sweet) = probably coolant = likely head gasket 3. Very thick white (and burnt sugar) = Automatic transmission fluid being sucked through a failed vacuum modulator on an automatic transmission 4. Blue on start up but then nothing = lubrication oil, probable valve seals 5. Blue on acceleration = lubrication oil, probable rings, confirm via wet and dry compression tests 6. Blue on deceleration = high engine vacuum = lubrication oil, probable valve seals and guides I am running 20W50 Lucas Classic and Hot Rod, high zinc (or zinc substitute), about 2000 miles on it. 2 years old. | ||
Viper Guy |
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Expert Posts: 2003 Location: Branson, MO | Any oil two years old is time for a change. Lots of time for it to be contaminated and it would be fairly inexpensive and easy to do. Just a a suggestion. | ||
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