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1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2019-06-19 10:34 AM (#583709 - in reply to #583705)
Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage



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In conversation with Tom during the time he was gatehring parts for the rebuild,
that Adventurer had long before parted ways with its F/I gear, and that he was
hunting up parts and updating the internal components from wax-and-paper wound
original stuff that was "unshielded", and thusly prone to external interference, to
modern, trouible-free parts. As I recall, Tom said neon signs, quite popular in the
50's, played real havoc on the electronics when the car would pass them.

Now, I have no knowledge of how this car was ultimately built, but Tom did reveal
his knowledge and intent, and a few years later the car was a reality in some form.
Wait till I reveal that I installed 906 heads and modern push rods on my Fireflite. I
can see the headlines now !




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57burb
Posted 2019-06-19 10:57 AM (#583713 - in reply to #583709)
Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage



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That beautiful Adventurer is a museum piece. It gets started and idled across manicured grass on sunny days at car shows twice a year and back into its trailer. Even the Electrojector can pull that off.
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Powerflite
Posted 2019-06-19 5:41 PM (#583733 - in reply to #582859)
Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage



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Exactly. Great running for a museum piece and everyone declares it the "King". Great, but you can't stand to drive the thing in reality. Whereas, Per's wife drives his car anywhere and under any weather condition. Electrical engineering is alive and well in America, Greg. I work with many people that could easily reverse engineer an original board and re-design it to work better if desired, and reproduce it. I could probably give it a good shot doing it myself. But what's the point in doing it beyond creating something for a museum trailer queen that will still have upgraded electronics? It would still be upgraded, not be original and still won't run well. The only thing original about it would be it's crappy performance. Why?? My ideal world would put a modern self-learning system inside the original style box with original looking connectors and have it working in closed-loop control. Yes the electronics are upgraded & non-original regardless of how you do it. I certainly wouldn't care as long as it works better.
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GregCon
Posted 2019-06-19 10:23 PM (#583747 - in reply to #582859)
Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage



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Really....does it matter if someone's wife can drive an FL car in the snow and rain? I'll go so far as to say anyone driving a 300D in pristine condition in those conditions...or even leaving it parked at a movie theater in nice weather - is showing questionable judgement.

Imagine the first car produced with a generator. The first car with the ability to create its own electricity! So you restore the car, and sitting under the hood is THE generator...the grandaddy of them all. You naturally brag about it, and lots of people at car shows marvel at it, and you proudly show them how it can power not only the car's ignition and single headlight, but also a Rockford Fosgate 400 watt amp and a massive bank of fog lamps. Well...that's no surprise, you tell the crowd, because you hollowed out the guts and replaced them all with a modern GM 230 amps alternator. Suddenly, not so impressive.

Again, the car is cool and I'm sure it runs great. But sorry, you don't get the bragging rights that go with running an early FI system. The point is not the have 'fuel injection'. Millions of cars have that. The point is to have THE fuel injection system of legend and lore.
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2019-06-20 12:52 AM (#583753 - in reply to #583747)
Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage



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Hollowed out the guts ? Maybe I missed something, but as Tom White explained
the system, and after watching the video of Per's car, "the guts" of what Tom called
"the brain box" were a series of wax-and-paper windings of some electrical nature
that controlled functions. By using modern versions of same-functioning parts, the
system gained the missing shielding that caused the original system problems, and
thusly, he was able to make the system work.

Now, if Per hit the wrecking year and adapted a VW F/I system to fit his 392, I'd
understand the issue with it being nothing like the original. But it seems to me, both
Tom and Per arrived at some balance of original parts and more reliable, newer tech
components, to get past the inadequacies of wax and paper tech level materials and
make their systems reliable.

At least, as I read it, neither system is that far from original. Did I miss something ?
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Powerflite
Posted 2019-06-20 2:00 AM (#583756 - in reply to #582859)
Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage



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Tom's system is as you understand it. Per's is less original because he is using a new computer as the controller, with an oxygen sensor. I don't think that Per even has an original controller to play with.
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fc7_plumcrazy
Posted 2019-06-20 5:45 AM (#583757 - in reply to #583747)
Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage


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GregCon - 2019-06-19 10:23 PM

Really....does it matter if someone's wife can drive an FL car in the snow and rain? I'll go so far as to say anyone driving a 300D in pristine condition in those conditions...or even leaving it parked at a movie theater in nice weather - is showing questionable judgement.


you are just living in the wrong country.
Visit sweden during the summer and you can see letter cars parked outside no matter if it is a movie theater, restaurant or different parking lot for shopping.
Driving and using them is an important part of the hobby. At least in europe.

A barely running trailer queen is no solution.

Carsten
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GregCon
Posted 2019-06-20 7:57 AM (#583761 - in reply to #582859)
Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage



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Well....I don't think we want to wade into a discussion of Europe's many problems....but let me just say I have the utmost respect for the Swede's first rate work on FL cars. Here in the USA, if I lived in a sleepy farm town in Iowa or Kansas or Texas, I'd have no problem driving an FL year round. But in a big city, or even a medium sized city? No place for a 60 year old car that you can't buy parts for, is very easy to steal, and attracts fleas from the moment you leave your house. You're just begging for trouble. Even with modern fuel injection, an otherwise stock FL car has to be driven with a great deal of caution and really can't be left unattended for long.
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2019-06-20 10:45 AM (#583767 - in reply to #583756)
Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage



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Powerflite - 2019-06-20 11:00 PM

Tom's system is as you understand it. Per's is less original because he is using a new computer
as the controller, with an oxygen sensor. I don't think that Per even has an original controller to
play with.


=================================

So, all this argument, comparing Per's injection system to a 2012 VW is based on the thing
Tom called a "brain box" having modern electrical components (as does Tom's old car), but the
key difference being that Per's car's stuff is held in a non-original housing ???

.... the rest of the visual presentation is pretty much as one would have seen it in 1958 ???

What exactly are the differences between a 1958 Electrojector system and Per's reconstruction
BESIDES the hidden electronic components ???
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57burb
Posted 2019-06-20 10:56 AM (#583770 - in reply to #583767)
Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage



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It's a sham, a fraud, an automotive tranny. He basically swapped in an LS. It has a COMPUTER for God's sake!




Edited by 57burb 2019-06-20 10:57 AM
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58wedge
Posted 2019-06-21 5:00 AM (#583829 - in reply to #582859)
Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage


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dont know were all got the vw system from,??, its is BOSCH injektors , and they supply to a bunch of brands , even some Americans , Like bendix suplied to Chyrsler, ((its not owend by them or was) ,``but it did not work,``, why use Bosch , probebly because`` it works`` and can be hidden-inside org-look injektors ... Now i need more ``popcorn`` like a fellow on the tread say
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GregCon
Posted 2019-06-22 2:07 PM (#583868 - in reply to #582859)
Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage



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I used the 2005 VW reference as a simple way to denote 'garden variety' system. I have no idea if he actually used VW parts. But...Bosch is one clue that leans that way.

The whole point being exactly what you are saying - it's a system that coulda been shipped out the door on any one of dozen cars makes. It's amazing that so many guys on this thread are blessing it 'because it works' when otherwise they would barf all over an interior of Southwest blankets or a chevy engine or mag wheels - they work, too. Who applauds when they see a 300D that is all original but has had the Carters replaced by Holley 600 vacuum sec carbs and round chrome air cleaners? No one.

My 58 has/had original AutoPilot that I carefully rebuilt and had functioning- would it have had the same standing if I had replaced it all with cruise control pieces off a 2005 VW? Or a 2005 Sebring? Of course not.
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2019-06-22 7:28 PM (#583879 - in reply to #583868)
Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage



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I hardly consider same-function electronic components, upgraded, from original parts that
were not very successful, closed up inside a metal box, to be so "offensive" to the original
presentation of this car, as any of the examples you have given. The fact that the car can
now run and drive as the Bendix people intended their system to, but were hampered by
parts then not quite brought up to reliable performance.

Ondian blanket interiors and blatantly visual changes are just that. This is a hidden use
of same-function parts, except these have 60 years of technology and testing working the
bugs out that the Bendix people did not have in 1958.

Personally, I'd be thrilled to drive this car. I'd make it look as stock as I possibly could and
let the magic of evolved technology for those parts that did not work in 1958 form do their
thing. Let the purist keep his wax and paper 1958 parts for that museum display, along with
that OEM air, paint, and every other modern thing that the purist hypocritically uses in restoration,
while denouncing the select pieces and parts they deem "not OK".
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GregCon
Posted 2019-06-22 10:58 PM (#583894 - in reply to #582859)
Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage



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I could argue visual changes are far less of an offense. Actually, I'm a person who find the original interior fabrics to be 'OK' but I certainly don't mind when they are changed to something else (no blankets though). The idea that hiding a change makes it OK is more of an offense. I mean....we all know the average person -even a 'car' person would never know the difference if you used a Chevy engine and hid it under those fake Hemi valve covers. You could also use a Chevy transmission and it would be largely invisible. Give me real mechanicals and leather seats any day....

I have no problem with the car using modern injection .... just don't hold it forth as something it ain't.
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Doctor DeSoto
Posted 2019-06-23 1:52 AM (#583902 - in reply to #583894)
Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage



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Hmmm .... I guess we come from very different places when it comes to what is
important to us, as it relates to period stuff. I would sooner junk a 50's car than run
it on radials. It's ALL about the presentation. A non-OEM interior .... forget it ! But
doo-dads that make the spark and fuel work, hidden away in a box ? Could not care
less if it is OEM or made last week. If that were the case, I'd insist on NOS pistons
for the rebuild and period motor oil.
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58wedge
Posted 2019-06-23 4:03 AM (#583904 - in reply to #582859)
Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage


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restore a cruise control , to original ,ìm all in to that ,(and i do), it worked ok from beguinning , org motor and trans etc etc ,(its a must),im all in to that also,,,and i do so, ,,that also worked good from start ,,, but the fuelie ``NEWER ``did , work good at all, ( read the Service-bullentin) ,thats why it all was recalled , so there is a Huge difference ,what to do or not what to do , cant understand why there is so much angry stuff here,?,, applaud the people who saves cars,, instead for they are sitting in a shead,not comming out,im gonna put the leftovers from per in my Desoto and im gonna fabricate everything as org as possible(the missing pieses) ,because i wont find all the org parts ,and they did not ,work ,,,,and im not gonna put any pic here , i dont need all piss on me for all work and effort i put in/on ``MY`` car , and its not for sale as a fuelie ,and its not for sale at all ,,so i wont fool anybody,,my few cents ....
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GregCon
Posted 2019-06-23 7:57 AM (#583919 - in reply to #582859)
Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage



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No one is knocking Per or his car...only the fuss being made over it being an original FI car and the resulting use of a modern FI system. I think too many people on this thread are allowing their personal feelings or relationship with Per to influence their views. If this car were assembled and owned by Lucius Melnick of Trenton, NJ would we feel the same?

Make the car driveable? It woulda been far cheaper (and more correct) to use 2 Carters.

The engine is the 'heart' of the car. That's why you have to careful in what you do under the hood.



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57burb
Posted 2019-06-23 11:23 AM (#583931 - in reply to #583919)
Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage



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That all makes sense if you ignore that the system was intolerably unsatisfactory even by 1958 standards. A restoration using only original parts and assembled and tuned as well as a dedicated team of Chrysler and Bendix engineers were capable would result in a car that performs exactly as it did in 1958 - poorly. That is according to the owners that drove them and the engineers and techs that were unable to keep them roadworthy. In other words, a successful restoration in your eyes would result in a car that is unreliable and runs terribly. I guess we see the purpose of restoration in a different light.

This isn't like a cruise control or auto dimming system. If they perform poorly, or not at all, an owner can be aggravated but the car is still basically functional. Not so with the engine's fuel delivery system. When it acts up, you're calling a tow truck.
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GregCon
Posted 2019-06-23 12:09 PM (#583933 - in reply to #583931)
Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage



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I agree - I wouldn't endeavor to run a Bendix system either. But....I also wouldn't 'take credit' for having an original FI car that wasn't running those parts. It'd be more of sidebar..."Actually this car was an original FI car but ...." That's the problem with running the modern parts - you never can lose the 'but'. There's the car that Elvis bought new, then there are all the cars that 'are just like' the one he bought new.
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fc7_plumcrazy
Posted 2019-06-25 6:05 PM (#584053 - in reply to #583933)
Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage


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GregCon - 2019-06-23 12:09 PM

I agree - I wouldn't endeavor to run a Bendix system either. But....I also wouldn't 'take credit' for having an original FI car that wasn't running those parts. It'd be more of sidebar..."Actually this car was an original FI car but ...." That's the problem with running the modern parts - you never can lose the 'but'. There's the car that Elvis bought new, then there are all the cars that 'are just like' the one he bought new.


I think there is no need to care if Per has to say "original FI car but..." or not.
It is in any case a factory FI car.

No one has to assume something "right or wrong".
It is just personal thoughts and opinions.

Opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one but they think each others stink.

Carsten



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ABloch
Posted 2019-06-25 9:41 PM (#584056 - in reply to #582859)
Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage



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I just gotta interject. I drive my FL every chance I get. Manual steering, standard brakes, three on da tree and bias plies. Not daily because I commute to work on a motorcycle. I park it wherever I may end up going and most of the time I don't even lock the doors. Never had a problem. Never even considered that someone would even think about screwing with my car. My wife has her own FL, sans fins ('62) and she drives hers even more than I do. Someone here might want to think about relocating to another part of the country and enjoy driving their cars more often.

Now back to the conversation......
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Powerflite
Posted 2019-06-26 1:44 AM (#584068 - in reply to #584056)
Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage



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ABloch - 2019-06-25 6:41 PM

.... because I commute to work on a motorcycle......


Very brave. I know 2 people that died that way, and I am not around a lot of motorcycle people.
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58coronet
Posted 2019-06-26 3:45 AM (#584071 - in reply to #582859)
Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage


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Lots of ways to die, like driving an old car, falling out of a boat, stray hunter's bullet, on and on. I ride a motorcycle, wear "all the gear all the time" and intend to enjoy life and favorite activities to the fullest and not worry excessively about "dying".
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ToMopar
Posted 2019-06-26 6:02 AM (#584072 - in reply to #582859)
Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage



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Can you not just acknowledge that another great fwdlook vehicle is back on the road.
I'm definitely looking forward to meeting Per next week, hopefully
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GregCon
Posted 2019-06-26 8:20 AM (#584077 - in reply to #582859)
Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage



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As I've said, if I lived in a small town my view would be different. But in any major city, or even medium sized city, you can't daily drive a FL car and expect to come out clean. It's Russian Roulette.

As for motorcycles, same story. You can live life to the fullest - that sounds great - but when Agnes Nusbaum drives her F-250 over you it's not so great anymore. Especially if you have kids who depend on you to be alive and non-vegetative. There are just too many lousy drivers on the road to put your life in their hands.
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58coronet
Posted 2019-06-26 8:58 AM (#584078 - in reply to #582859)
Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage


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To each his own. Motorcycles, flying, etc are not for everyone. That’s why there is golf.
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1960fury
Posted 2019-06-26 9:44 AM (#584082 - in reply to #584071)
Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage



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58coronet - 2019-06-26 3:45 AM

Lots of ways to die, like driving an old car, falling out of a boat, stray hunter's bullet, on and on. I ride a motorcycle, wear "all the gear all the time" and intend to enjoy life and favorite activities to the fullest and not worry excessively about "dying".


No problem with "dying" the problem is surviving with missing limbs, in a wheelchair or, the ultimmate horror, locked in syndrom.
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ABloch
Posted 2019-06-26 10:51 AM (#584083 - in reply to #584077)
Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage



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Can't? Yes you can Greg, you just don't. Personally I don't see the point of owning a car, truck, motorcycle and not driving it. If owning and driving these
cars is your thing, why would you live somewhere where you cannot enjoy them?

You guys are arguing semantics. it's hysterical. Total time waster.... like politics and religion.

I'm not going to derail this thread and longer and I will start another thread instead.
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58coronet
Posted 2019-06-26 1:22 PM (#584090 - in reply to #584082)
Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage


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1960fury - 2019-06-26 9:44 AM

58coronet - 2019-06-26 3:45 AM

Lots of ways to die, like driving an old car, falling out of a boat, stray hunter's bullet, on and on. I ride a motorcycle, wear "all the gear all the time" and intend to enjoy life and favorite activities to the fullest and not worry excessively about "dying".


No problem with "dying" the problem is surviving with missing limbs, in a wheelchair or, the ultimmate horror, locked in syndrom.


This from someone that regularly drives their 1960 Plymouth 150 mph.
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Powerflite
Posted 2019-06-26 3:00 PM (#584093 - in reply to #584078)
Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage



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58coronet - 2019-06-26 5:58 AM

To each his own. Motorcycles, flying, etc are not for everyone. That’s why there is golf.


I was wondering why golf existed, now I know.

Driving an old car with a lap belt (or none) or a motorcycle is a calculated risk. As long as you don't drive it very often, and in places & times where there aren't a lot of crazy drivers or drunk drivers, you can mitigate the risk to be pretty low. But do it every day during mad hours with hoards of insane people on the road, and you are rolling those loaded dice many many times. It won't take long for your number to eventually come up. Here in LA, the risks are even higher so that's my perspective. I've personally witnessed 2 motorcycle crashes from the seat of my car (no, I didn't cause them :D). One of the accidents was fatal. The other was saved by pure luck, some skill & the grace of God; sliding around on his back with body armor across 3 lanes of traffic. Flying risks are worse because many of them you don't know about until it takes you down 6ft under.

So in other words, there is a big difference between riding a motorcycle and commuting with one. The same could be said for an old car without appropriate safety upgrades. Three-point seat belts reduce your risk considerably if you can install them. They do seem out-of-place in a hardtop, but if you are driving the car every day during commute times, I would consider them to be essential.I install them in all of my sedans.
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1960fury
Posted 2019-06-26 7:12 PM (#584105 - in reply to #584090)
Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage



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58coronet - 2019-06-26 1:22 PM

1960fury - 2019-06-26 9:44 AM

58coronet - 2019-06-26 3:45 AM

Lots of ways to die, like driving an old car, falling out of a boat, stray hunter's bullet, on and on. I ride a motorcycle, wear "all the gear all the time" and intend to enjoy life and favorite activities to the fullest and not worry excessively about "dying".


No problem with "dying" the problem is surviving with missing limbs, in a wheelchair or, the ultimmate horror, locked in syndrom.


This from someone that regularly drives their 1960 Plymouth 150 mph.


You should have simply said "regularly drives", the 150mph makes no sense, if something happens at 150 in these cars the above scenarios are very unlikely (knocking on wood).
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GregCon
Posted 2019-06-26 7:27 PM (#584107 - in reply to #582859)
Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage



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If you daily drove a FL car here in Houston, the odds are very, very high that within one year it would no longer be your daily driver. Very high. Most likely, you'd crash it. Second likely, it'd be stolen.


So....while you 'can' drive an FL car....it's not at all a prudent move. I 'can' leave all my doors unlocked at night, and I 'can' leave piles of cash on my front lawn. It's just that I try to not ask for troubles.
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1960fury
Posted 2019-06-26 7:41 PM (#584110 - in reply to #582859)
Subject: Re: 1958 Chrysler 300-D Fuelie on Jay Leno's Garage



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Things are changing in Germany too, you may heard it in the news. Yes, I really think about parking my car in the garage and throw away the keys. Again, had a very unpleasant experience with the usual ..... creatures. I'm not saying "people", as a chimp can walk on 2 legs too. A human has to act human and civilised, if not he/she is not a human. All I can say is, I'm full of hate.
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