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oil pressure problem 392
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51coronet
Posted 2019-09-30 12:16 AM (#588144)
Subject: oil pressure problem 392


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looking for suggestions. 392 hemi fresh build. I have no pressure at the block near the distributor and very little volume. I have great flow and pressure at the filter before it enters the block.

Im using a spin on adapter and relocation kit. I also installed the plug that is recomended when using a spin on filter. I recently dropped the pan and rear main cap and verified I have a clear path from the hole near distributor down. So that check valve has been removed that the factory installed.

What other things can I do to verify the passages are clear?

Next I will remove the adapter that is on the block and check the entry from the oil filter. Anyone have a diagram of the oil passages for a 392?

One other thing is I don't have much oil at all in the valve train. While assembling I did verify the oil passages were lined up with the holes on the heads and did shoot air through the rocker hold downs, heads and block so in theory should have oil but how much oil should I see up here?

Another note is the plug at the cam gear where it meets the distributor gear at the front side of the engine was missing. I did recently install that hoping it would fix the problem but it did not. That was fun installing that. Are you supposed to install that from the valley? I installed it from the distributor hole with some tricky tooling.

Thanks for any ideas.
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Mopar1
Posted 2019-09-30 7:11 AM (#588159 - in reply to #588144)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392



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There's not much oil in the rockers compared to modern engines. W/O the plug behind the dizzy you won't have oil pressure, or not much. With engine out there's a plug on the outside that removed to get to the other. Oil galley plug,
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58coupe
Posted 2019-09-30 12:22 PM (#588171 - in reply to #588144)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392



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What oil pump are you running? Maybe the relief valve in the pump is stuck open.
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57burb
Posted 2019-09-30 3:20 PM (#588181 - in reply to #588144)
Subject: RE: oil pressure problem 392



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51coronet - 2019-09-29 11:16 PM

Im using a spin on adapter and relocation kit. I also installed the plug that is recomended when using a spin on filter.


I installed a spin on filter adapter on my 392 Hemi. There wasn't a "recommended plug" with it, and I've never heard of one. Where does that plug go? I'm suspecting it might be your problem.
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Powerflite
Posted 2019-09-30 4:31 PM (#588185 - in reply to #588144)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392



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He is referring to the replacement plug for the stock oil bypass valve.



(Hemi Bypass Valve.jpg)



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Attachments Hemi Bypass Valve.jpg (249KB - 459 downloads)
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Powerflite
Posted 2019-09-30 4:37 PM (#588186 - in reply to #588144)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392



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Here is an oiling diagram for you.



(Hemi-BigBlock Oil Diagrams.jpg)



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Attachments Hemi-BigBlock Oil Diagrams.jpg (207KB - 434 downloads)
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51coronet
Posted 2019-09-30 5:10 PM (#588191 - in reply to #588186)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392


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Thanks Powerflight. The last post is empty though. No diagram there.

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Powerflite
Posted 2019-09-30 5:14 PM (#588192 - in reply to #588144)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392



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It took too long to finish submitting so I got distracted with something else.

While you have it apart, make sure you have that dowel under the main cap still in place, an make sure there isn't some part of the oil bypass valve still in the motor.

Edited by Powerflite 2019-09-30 5:17 PM
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51coronet
Posted 2019-09-30 5:18 PM (#588194 - in reply to #588181)
Subject: RE: oil pressure problem 392


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I installed a spin on filter adapter on my 392 Hemi. There wasn't a "recommended plug" with it, and I've never heard of one. Where does that plug go? I'm suspecting it might be your problem.


The plug replaces the bypass valve that way you get 100% filtered oil. If I didn't have the plug installed I wouldn't know I have low or no pressure as its a straight shot to the pump from the hole where the gauge gets pressure.

So having the plug there serves 2 purposes. Accurate pressure reading and 100% filtered oil going to the engine.
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51coronet
Posted 2019-09-30 5:27 PM (#588195 - in reply to #588144)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392


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That's a nice diagram much thanks. Im using a hot heads high volume pump. The dowel is there. The bypass was removed prior to me owning the block, The previous owner also removed all the plugs so I had no idea there was a plug in front of the distributor gear until I did some reading. The block was "clean" so its something I caused or something that existed before purchasing it. What a headache pulling things apart grrr
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51coronet
Posted 2020-06-14 10:53 PM (#599672 - in reply to #588144)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392


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No change after putting things back together. I even attached the inlet and outlet hoses together that would normally attach to a filter housing then used my drill to push oil through the block. No pressure at the pressure port but there is some oil there oozing out just not anywhere near 5 or more psi like there is right at the hoses. The outlet hose has really high pressure and volume similar to a garden hose on full blast.

Any other ideas? The crank was cleaned by a machine shop before I assembled it and it appeared all the passages were clear. This blockage has to be significant to limit oil that much right? Or is there a port that is possibly wide open that should have been plugged? Are there more plugs that are part of the oil system that need to be installed besides the one at the rear of the block near distributor?

Thanks for any tips, tricks, ideas etc.

Edited by 51coronet 2020-06-14 11:15 PM
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samstrader
Posted 2020-06-14 11:56 PM (#599678 - in reply to #588144)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392


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I had oil pressure problems on my 1955 259 due to the antidrain back valve being installed upside down. It sounds to me like the plug you installed to block oil bypassing the filter is in too high and blocking the outlet of the filter; not letting oil from the filter get to the engine. When you have the filter off, can you blow air from the filter outlet hole to the oil pressure tap on top of the block. There are not many places to plug off the oil lines and stop the flow of oil but making sure the outlet of the filter is not blocked is a place you can do this. On mine, the hole from the filter outlet is drilled straight across to the oil ports. It could be that your main oil supply line from the oil filter is low in the block and it might be easy to plug the oil line to the engine. The oil pressure tap on top of the engine is just a dead leg where the pressure is read. The oil supply from the filter outlet to the engine is very low in the block. At least that's how it is on mine.
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samstrader
Posted 2020-06-15 12:06 AM (#599679 - in reply to #588144)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392


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Also, I'm not sure that the plug being in place helps you get accurate pressure reading. If the plug is out and the filter is totally bypassed, you still get oil pressure to the engine and it would be full oil pressure too. It just would not be filtered.

are you sure the line to the oil pressure gauge is clear and are you sure the pressure gauge is working correctly. If you are getting oil to the rockers, which is sort of the last place the oil goes and also a place where there is very little oil, it sounds like you have good oil pressure because without oil pressure, there would be almost nothing there.

Only other problem I can think of is that the main bearing oil holes may be lined up wrong but I really don't see how that could happen.

Good Luck.
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51coronet
Posted 2020-06-15 1:23 AM (#599682 - in reply to #588144)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392


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Verifying the plug was installed correctly is why I pulled the bottom end apart to begin with. The way the plug is made you cant plug the oil flow because it is machined with a window so no matter how you install it you will have oil flow. There is only upside down possibility but the o-ring end goes up, I also was able to put machinist pick up inside and verify the window for the return from filter back to the block was not obstructed. I will pull off the adapter plate next and inspect there. I have a boroscope now so will see if it will fit. The gauge works with air and I have another oil gauge so the gauge is not the issue for sure especially seeing how the oil only oozes out the port. Its either an almost total blockage or completely open oil passage that shouldn't be. Either case I have no idea where I should look now. The engine is very noisy but I don't have anything to compare it to. It has a full roller valve train and hydraulic roller lifters. its almost as noisy as a diesel without the signature diesel sound.

Pulling the oil adapter plate is about the only thing I can do before really tearing the engine apart takes place. Is there anything on the front of the engine under the timing cover that could cause this?
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Powerflite
Posted 2020-06-15 1:38 AM (#599683 - in reply to #588144)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392



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No nothing in the front. It gets oil from the cam bearings and other runoff, but are you measuring the oil pressure with the filter off and the oil flowing? I don't expect you to get much pressure that way. It needs to be a mostly closed system. But also, check the placement of the oil hole on your roller liters. They could be placed at the wrong location. The 392 uses the old style lifter from '66 and older and many companies don't seem to know there is a difference.
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51coronet
Posted 2020-06-15 2:05 AM (#599685 - in reply to #588144)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392


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I have tried measuring oil pressure with the filter off and the lines looped back to the block with no change. Engine running no change. The pump works well I know that. I couldn't stop the flow with my finger on the line and the wife using the cordless drill to drive the pump. It sprayed just like a garden hose when you put your finger over the opening. I'm inclined to think its one of the new items I installed or even the head gasket. I am pretty certain the passages were clear, I used compressed air in all the passages before assembly and they all had a clear path even the rocker assemblies I hit with air to be sure I lined up the oil holes. This is very frustrating!

Block has all new everything. main Bearings, cam bearings(installed correctly by machine shop), pistons, rods, rod bearings, high volume oil pump, cam (roller cam from hot heads) hydraulic roller lifters from howards, stanke roller rockers, pistons. Those are the new things that get oil. The howards lifters "should" be correct.

Edited by 51coronet 2020-06-15 2:10 AM
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mikes2nd
Posted 2020-06-15 8:27 AM (#599693 - in reply to #588144)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392


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is it fired up? or are you spinning?

this is with the oil bypass installed and he filter off(looped oil).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZcXb2H86F0
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51coronet
Posted 2020-06-15 11:21 AM (#599699 - in reply to #599693)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392


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mikes2nd - 2020-06-15 8:27 AM

is it fired up? or are you spinning?

this is with the oil bypass installed and he filter off(looped oil).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZcXb2H86F0


have done all the above and get no pressure at the port. oil flows out just not much its more of an oozing out. Not enough to move the needle on the gauge at all. Plus I can rest my finger on it lightly and the flow stops so I know it has no pressure.

Edited by 51coronet 2020-06-15 11:25 AM
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samstrader
Posted 2020-06-15 4:26 PM (#599710 - in reply to #588144)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392


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I think pulling the oil filter adapter and verifying the lines that leave the filter are open is a real good place to start. After you know for sure this line is open, you go to the next place and see what you have.

I'm going to find something that explains the oil non return and the filter bypass better. The oil plug you are talking about is the non return valve cage and when installed right, it will allow full oil flow to the filter. My non return valve was installed upside down by my machine shop and low oil flow wiped out my main bearings so I really do understand what you are talking about. But there is something that explains this all better and I'll find it for you.
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samstrader
Posted 2020-06-15 4:56 PM (#599711 - in reply to #599710)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392


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Here is a drawing that explains how you might have a plug in the oil line that comes from the filter. It is a long shot but if someone pushed up the oil filter bypass spring housing too high, the port to the engine could be blocked. On my car, the oil pressure gauge tap is on the line going up. I think yours is different than a 1955 259 but I just wanted to show what I have and how it might be possible to block oil flow from the filter to the engine. I hope I'm not adding confusion.



(Oil Filter Bypass Drawing.jpg)



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Attachments Oil Filter Bypass Drawing.jpg (196KB - 325 downloads)
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51coronet
Posted 2020-06-16 1:22 AM (#599739 - in reply to #588144)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392


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Thanks! Yep that all makes sense and is similar to the 392. Going to dig in more this weekend. Thanks for the input so far everyone. Hope I can figure this out and hope its a simple fix.
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Mopar1
Posted 2020-06-16 10:27 PM (#599766 - in reply to #599739)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392



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51coronet - 2020-06-16 12:22 AM

Thanks! Yep that all makes sense and is similar to the 392. .
All the same, except some early low decks have been noted to not be drilled between the upper & lower passages.
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samstrader
Posted 2020-06-17 4:18 PM (#599787 - in reply to #588144)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392


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Mopar1 is exactly correct. My car which was bought from the dealer in February 1955 had a early block, probably make in 1954 and it was drilled to allow the install of the non return ball check valve but it was not drilled through and through so the spring cage filter bypass valve could be installed. So a plugged filter on my car could have overpressured the oil filter housing. To compensate, the original oil filter had a grove cut in the bolt on part that went from the oil filter inlet to the oil filter outlet. This grove was about 1/8 inch wide and 1/8 inch deep and essentially always bypassed a portion of the oil flow around the filter. I have heard that some earlier engines did not even have the ball check non return valve and if this is true, you would have a dry start every time you started the engine, which is what I did have when my mechanic installed the ball check valve cage in upside down.

When I installed my HotHeads adapter, I took out the ball check valve and had a not drilled block so I have no chance of bypassing the oil filter except through the internal bypass valve on the spin on oil filter. This is one thing that worked out good for me.
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51coronet
Posted 2020-06-19 8:11 PM (#599872 - in reply to #599711)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392


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I removed the outside converter plate for the remote oil filter and put a borescope into each hole. No obstruction there but.... its kinda different from the diagrams.

You can see the top of the plunger which is flat in the first pic (shiny spot is a tool mark from when I punched it out earlier in this headache) and directly across from that is the passage up to the oil gauge. I can't see any other passages from the top oil hole going into the block from where the oil filter attaches.

The bottom hole I can see the plunger I installed (looking through the window in the pic) so the block off section would be facing up. The bottom passage is unobstructed.

In the first 2 pics you can see how the hole was drilled with some sort of mill bit with a centering end on it. It dead ends there just past the vertical hole for the gauge and where the plunger is installed.

Edited by 51coronet 2020-06-19 8:28 PM




(top oil hole outside block.JPG)



(top oil hole outside block 2.JPG)



(bottom oil hole.JPG)



(bottom oil hole 2.JPG)



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Attachments top oil hole outside block.JPG (55KB - 319 downloads)
Attachments top oil hole outside block 2.JPG (43KB - 296 downloads)
Attachments bottom oil hole.JPG (54KB - 320 downloads)
Attachments bottom oil hole 2.JPG (58KB - 323 downloads)
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51coronet
Posted 2020-06-19 9:57 PM (#599875 - in reply to #599872)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392


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Played with the scope some more and got a much better shot. There is an oil passage.



(top hole I see oil passage.JPG)



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Attachments top hole I see oil passage.JPG (68KB - 325 downloads)
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51coronet
Posted 2020-06-19 10:05 PM (#599876 - in reply to #588144)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392


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So with what I am finding the oil gauge gets pressure right after the oil enters back into the block from the filter which is illustrated in the drawing above. So my lines, the adapter, or filter have an issue.
The line from the pump is good I know that so its something from there back into the block. I was so close to tearing this block down.... I may not have to.
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mikes2nd
Posted 2020-06-20 12:47 AM (#599883 - in reply to #588144)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392


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adapter? what adapter?
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51coronet
Posted 2020-06-22 12:04 PM (#600008 - in reply to #599883)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392


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mikes2nd - 2020-06-20 12:47 AM

adapter? what adapter?

Adapter to use a filter relocation.

Its not the adapter, hoses, filter, gauge, passages, backwards connection etc. Now I am thinking it may be the pressure relief valve in the pump which I didn't bother checking because its a new pump. A stuck open relief valve can explain the issue I am having because nothing else appears to be a problem.
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51coronet
Posted 2020-06-23 2:48 AM (#600038 - in reply to #600008)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392


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Anyone know if a milodon gear drive 13600 will cause this issue?
I installed one and the 2 holes don't get covered like they do with the stock cam retainer plate. Each is about 1/3 open.



(7046765-HPIM4173.JPG)



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mikes2nd
Posted 2020-06-23 3:12 AM (#600040 - in reply to #588144)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392


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you didnt tell us you had that thing on there! hah

there is a crank oil slinger and it drips down into the chain... That wasnt made for a hemi at all was it? I mean just getting oil to the gears is an issue. Not sure which of those holes is to oil the gears?
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51coronet
Posted 2020-06-23 4:10 AM (#600041 - in reply to #588144)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392


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Its actually made for the hemi look up the part number 13600. I am going to raise hell with milodon because there is nothing in the instructions that says to block these off. I have wasted many hours due to incompetence from this manufacturer and their s**t design. All the instructions say is to remove the stock retainer and hardware. No mention of oh hey the oil holes are going to be way too large and you aren't going to have pressure as a result. There should be oil drip from up higher where the valley drains, probably not enough to get on the gears....so yea a slinger makes perfect sense. Milodon should have made the plate cover the holes and drill a tiny hole on each side. darn that would have made sense.


Also did some rigging with an aeromotive A1000 pump. I hooked it up to the oil inlet to the engine and pulled the drain plug. Used a bucket as a sump for the oil and pumped it into the engine with the A1000. Guess what? No pressure, go figure. This pump should be enough to get the needle to move but with wide open holes in the engine it was not happening. So the relief valve on the oil pump is likely fine, Its a new pump and I saw I working really well when I used the drill to drive it.

Now I get to fix milodons crap design and waste more time.

Edited by 51coronet 2020-06-23 4:19 AM
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mikes2nd
Posted 2020-06-23 10:52 AM (#600048 - in reply to #588144)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392


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Your right their website mentions 392 hemi...

Ive seen guys say they used it on a 392, but these are age old guys who probably knew how to tweak it... that's seriously UNCOOL...

I would send them a bill for your time



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51coronet
Posted 2020-06-23 1:41 PM (#600051 - in reply to #588144)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392


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Called milodon and the tech guy knew right away when I mentioned oil pressure. Plug the holes with freeze plugs is what he said. The gear drive gets oil from the lifter valley when oil drains down. I tried like hell to convince him to get a single sentence added to the instructions that say block the 2 oil passages on hemi engines. A single sentence would have saved me maybe a hundred or so hours of screwing with this thing. This is my first and only hemi rebuild so I don't know the tricks of the trade but watched and read what I could. No one mentions installing these things.
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Powerflite
Posted 2020-06-23 4:42 PM (#600059 - in reply to #588144)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392



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That's ridiculous for them to sell a part without notifying you of something as critical as that. It's bad enough that they don't provide the needed parts to get it done, let alone not caring about the possible destruction to your motor that it would cause if you didn't know about it.
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51coronet
Posted 2020-06-23 5:07 PM (#600061 - in reply to #588144)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392


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Exactly! Now I am tearing apart the front of the engine which has no leaks by the way to do this fix. I hope like hell nothing leaks afterward. This idiot company, all they had to do was sell a different kit for hemi engines that blocks the oil holes or include plugs and include a single sentence in the instruction. Nope they want to sell one that kinda works on hemi and small block engines. They still say to drill and tap a darn hole in the block...... grrrrr how about make a product that actually fits correctly like the one pictured.



(youtube hemi gear drive.jpg)



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Attachments youtube hemi gear drive.jpg (248KB - 289 downloads)
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samstrader
Posted 2020-06-23 5:17 PM (#600062 - in reply to #588144)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392


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I'm sorry this happened to you. I think I am a pretty good mechanic but you can't fix things up unless you get good parts and getting good parts has been a problem for me all of my life. Very frustrating.

The good news is that at least you know what the problem is now and it won't be too hard to fix. And it's going to be great when it gets going. Use a little RTV and you won't have any leaks. I'm glad you found the problem...

But sorry for all of the unnecessary trouble.

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mikes2nd
Posted 2020-06-23 5:56 PM (#600065 - in reply to #588144)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392


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yeah he's only out a hundred hours of his life because Miliodon is a bunch of morons...
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westaus29
Posted 2020-06-23 10:23 PM (#600070 - in reply to #588144)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392


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What a saga! Thank goodness you took a methodical approach and found the problem in the first place. I wonder how many ruined engines have resulted from this crazy situation. Congratulations on finally sorting it out, you need to post a video with sound when it finally fires up.
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51coronet
Posted 2020-06-24 2:02 AM (#600076 - in reply to #600059)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392


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few pics before this happened. Have the front apart, need to drop the pan to get the timing cover off....I think, Its not wanting to move at the bottom. Was planning on ditching the milodon pan anyway and use a stock center sump pan. The rear sump is way too close to the steering linkage and there is a leak at the rear main I need to figure out. So the work continues.

Edited by 51coronet 2020-06-24 2:25 AM




(hemi engine.jpg)



(gear drive.jpg)



(valvetrain.jpg)



(girdle.jpg)



(lifters.jpg)



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Attachments hemi engine.jpg (85KB - 289 downloads)
Attachments gear drive.jpg (165KB - 286 downloads)
Attachments valvetrain.jpg (116KB - 289 downloads)
Attachments girdle.jpg (140KB - 294 downloads)
Attachments lifters.jpg (126KB - 284 downloads)
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Mopar1
Posted 2020-06-24 10:32 AM (#600081 - in reply to #600076)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392



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Unless you're doing it to make sure you don't get a broke timing chain, supposedly the parasitic drag of the gears takes more power than the more accurate timing gives you, unless it's a race engine.
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51coronet
Posted 2020-06-24 1:54 PM (#600085 - in reply to #588144)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392


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I had the gear drive from a 360 I had and sold, kept the gears. Same part number and interchange according to milodon. I had it so figured use it, I wont lose any timing due to chain stretch and it will last. I put higher end parts on it because I wanted to. Studs top and bottom, girdle, fluidampr, street pistons from KB, rods are molnar. Its in my 57 Imperial so no racing just a nice strong reliable engine was the game plan. The car is a resto mod so changing things up and modernizing wasn't an issue for me. The 300F will be a different story when I get to that one.... should have been working on it already grrrrr
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samstrader
Posted 2020-06-24 3:32 PM (#600087 - in reply to #588144)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392


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Pictures are great. Everything sure looks good. The rockers are super. You should have plexiglass valve covers. It really looks great. You have done a fantastic job and you were very smart to keep troubleshooting until you found the problem.
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51coronet
Posted 2020-07-19 12:20 AM (#601075 - in reply to #588144)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392


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Posts: 360
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FIXED! Dorman 555-008 is the part to use if you are going to use plugs on the holes. Otherwise drill tap and use whatever you plan.

I started the engine and wow its so much quieter and smoother. This was a total pain in the a s s to fix with the engine in the car. Oil pan came off and everything in the front of the engine. In order to remove the pan I had to lift the engine up several inches so the pan would clear the front cross member. Unbolted the trans mounts where it mounts to the crossmember so no stress on the mounts and also removed the brake booster and master. Removed the front steering linkage also. I also replaced the rear main seal, looks like I installed the other one wrong so watched a few videos. The full gasket set from best I had didnt go over the correct way to install either rope seal or rubber gasket. For some reason the pan isn't putting enough pressure on the half moon seals in the back to get a good seal so have a leak there. I'm hoping some Ultra Black RTV will fix that. Happy I can move forward with other things now.
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samstrader
Posted 2020-07-20 11:46 AM (#601123 - in reply to #588144)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392


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Location: Beaumont TX
I'm really happy for you. I'm glad you are happy with your engine. It was a big challenge but you fixed it. I learned a lot from this post so thanks for sharing and congratulations again!
Sam
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samstrader
Posted 2020-10-30 4:04 PM (#605080 - in reply to #588144)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392


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Posts: 443
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Location: Beaumont TX
Hi 51Coronet, You said you watched a few videos on how to install the rear main seal. Do you remember which videos helped you?
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51coronet
Posted 2020-11-17 10:16 PM (#605731 - in reply to #605080)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392


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I watched a video I think it was a ford block with someone instructing how to install them. I just typed in "install rope seal" (I think) Once you watch one video a few more like it will show up on the right hand side of youtube. It wasn't 392 hemi specific but the way to install them is the same for pretty much any engine that has a split main seal.
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samstrader
Posted 2020-11-19 2:14 AM (#605768 - in reply to #588144)
Subject: Re: oil pressure problem 392


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Posts: 443
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Location: Beaumont TX
Thanks Jason, I found several videos and they were very helpful. I clocked the splits on my rubber seal and used RTV and it's holding up for now with about 125 miles on it. This is already better than I did in the past. I think RTV on the seal ends and clocking the seal is at least a major part of the key to success here.
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