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Starter ring gear for a -58 Firesweep
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Icy '58
Posted 2021-04-16 4:29 AM (#611119)
Subject: Starter ring gear for a -58 Firesweep



Member

Posts: 42
25
Location: Luleå, Sweden
Hi.
I have two worries about ring gears and the starter motor

My poor car is eating starter-gears for breakfest. I swiched the ring gear on the converter almost 15 years ago but now it has started to kill the startmotor-gears again.

Back then it was almost imopssible for me to find a new ring gear. I spent days calling everybody in the whole country but no one could help me until i ran into a almost neighbour that had an old -59 Desoto converter lying on a shelf. He also had bought a -58 Imperial restoration object, with an extra converter lying in its trunk. The ring-gear at that converter looked exact the same as the one from the Desoto.


Today internet is more easy to use and I have checked for a startergear called ZA-573 ( https://atpautomotive.com/flywheel-ring-gear-za-573 ) the different part-locators and sites that sells this states that it does not fit my car, but it will fit the Imperial wich we compared to back then.

Can anybody help me to determine if this gear would fit my car?

The car is an 1958 Desoto firesweep with the 350 engine and the tourqeflite tree speed automatic transmission.



My cas has an starter without solenoid that throws the starter gear into the flywheel. When the car ignite the gear is thrown back in to the starter but if it not starts the gear is thrown forward in to the flywheel (ring-gear) again. I think this is the reason for the wear om the startermotorgear and also the ring gear. Is it possible to fit an other starter motor that uses a conventional solenoid that handles the movement of the startergear?


pic of the car waiting for a new ring gear and that the snow would melt away.
https://www.maskinisten.net/userpix/394147_1MML767JBMYK01618561097.j...
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56D500boy
Posted 2021-04-16 12:45 PM (#611143 - in reply to #611119)
Subject: RE: Starter ring gear for a -58 Firesweep



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.
I believe that your LS1 (1958 Desoto Firesweep (based on the 1958 Dodge)) 350 starter is PN 1779 955 (tag on the starter would have said MDL-6013). This is a inertia Bendix-drive type starter (no solenoid). I think your issue is the Bendix drive has failed (and has been failed for some time).

"The Bendix system places the starter drive pinion on a helical drive spring. When the starter motor begins turning, the inertia of the drive pinion assembly causes it to wind the spring forcing the length of the spring to change, and allowing the pinion to engage with the ring gear. When the engine starts, backdrive from the ring gear causes the drive pinion to exceed the rotative speed of the starter, at which point the drive pinion is forced back and out of mesh with the ring gear.

The main drawback to the Bendix drive is that it relies on a certain amount of "clash" between the teeth of the pinion and the ring gears before they slip into place and mate completely; the teeth of the pinion are already spinning when they come into contact with the static ring gear, and unless they happen to align perfectly at the moment they engage, the pinion teeth will strike the teeth of the ring gear side-to-side rather than face-to-face, and continue to rotate until both align. This increases wear on both sets of teeth. For this reason the Bendix drive has been largely superseded in starter motor design by the pre-engagement system using a starter solenoid."

The Bendix PN was 1752 387 (or 1752387 Bendix on a Google search)

Apparently the 1752387 was superceded to 2095397. Hiltop Auto has one:

https://www.hiltopautoparts.com/product/nos-mopar-starter-clutch-195...



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57chizler
Posted 2021-04-16 12:48 PM (#611144 - in reply to #611119)
Subject: RE: Starter ring gear for a -58 Firesweep



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The part number 1673646 that the ATP gear replaces is correct.




(Ring Gear.PNG)



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Attachments Ring Gear.PNG (21KB - 283 downloads)
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Icy '58
Posted 2021-04-18 4:25 AM (#611187 - in reply to #611119)
Subject: Re: Starter ring gear for a -58 Firesweep



Member

Posts: 42
25
Location: Luleå, Sweden
56D500boy, The bendix gear failed twice in a row (two month between the fails) before i changed the ring gear on the converter and put in a new bendix gear with drive. Thy comes as a unit like the one you linked to. Then a used it during the summers in 10 years but then the bendix gear failed again. I swiched the gear and started it 10 times untill the heartbreaking scratch of a failed starter gear ripped my ears again.

the "new" ring gear was used and perhaps not in brand new condition, but way better than my first and since it was impossible to find a new the one, only one that i found was the only option. The first ringgear and the new one had signs of wear at three spots. I turned the weared spots compared to the converter så that the starter shouldn't engage at just thoose places at the ring.

But now I want to secure the starterdevices for the future. A brand new ring. a new gear (the local parts dealer can supply that one) or the best option a new (or used) starter from a higher series Desoto or likewise with the solenoid starter. A modern hi tourqe starter could be an option just to get the solenoid kick in gear function if I don't find a suitable Mopar starter.


57Chizler: Great info that means that I got multilple more options to get a new ring. All the aftermarcet catalouge/parts locators doesn't say it matches. I suspected that it was just because of no one had been interested to look at a "odd" car as the 58 Firesweep in the matching-list.



Edited by Icy '58 2021-04-18 4:26 AM
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56D500boy
Posted 2021-04-18 11:33 AM (#611192 - in reply to #611187)
Subject: Re: Starter ring gear for a -58 Firesweep



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Icy '58 - 2021-04-18 1:25 AM
56D500boy, The bendix gear failed twice in a row (two month between the fails) before i changed the ring gear on the converter and put in a new bendix gear with drive. Thy comes as a unit like the one you linked to. Then a used it during the summers in 10 years but then the bendix gear failed again. I swiched the gear and started it 10 times untill the heartbreaking scratch of a failed starter gear ripped my ears again.


Okay.

If the Bendixes are failing so quickly, there is an issue that you are missing. I have to guess that the number of ring gear teeth is not compatible with the Bendixes that you have been using. There are 9 tooth and 10 tooth Bendixes (or at least starter drives). I know there are 122, 130, 143 and 172 tooth ring gears. The the starter and the ring gear are a team and they have to be compatible.

A 1958 Firesweep (LS1) is a 1958 Dodge (LD3) wearing a Desoto clothes (Front end, taillights, etc). The 350 engine is a Dodge engine. Therefore, it you are usign the OE 1958 Dodge starter, you need a ring gear for a 1958 Dodge with a Torqueflite (3 speed automatic).

I think that your torque converter should be 1731 860 and the starter ring gear PN 1673 646. If that is true, there is a 1673 646 172 tooth ring gear on eBay for decent money:

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/NOS-Mopar-1955-1977-Chrysler-Dodge-Plymouth-...





(58FireSweepStartingRingGearAndTQconverterPNs.jpg)



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Attachments 58FireSweepStartingRingGearAndTQconverterPNs.jpg (171KB - 272 downloads)
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Icy '58
Posted 2021-04-19 5:14 AM (#611221 - in reply to #611119)
Subject: RE: Starter ring gear for a -58 Firesweep



Member

Posts: 42
25
Location: Luleå, Sweden
Hi.
I went out searching my barn. I did found a old wear out bendix starter gear that I have put in new and weared out and replaced. I do not remember wich in order this was or if it is from the first original ringgear setup or if it is from a wearout with the "new" ringgear that I swiched to.

This is how they look.

The ring on the converter have 172 tooths. The starter bendix gear have 9 toths. I have always double checked the one I took out to the replacement part that they are the same.

However. The first gear I changed was of the type in the pics D500boy showedwith the coilspring base. All the replacement parts have a slightly different design on the throwout mechanism. (see pic below.) but it is sold to be a replacement part for the 1958 Firesweep






(kuggkrans zoom.jpg)



(startmotordrev.jpg)



(startmotordrev2.jpg)



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Attachments kuggkrans zoom.jpg (74KB - 289 downloads)
Attachments startmotordrev.jpg (51KB - 268 downloads)
Attachments startmotordrev2.jpg (50KB - 280 downloads)
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Icy '58
Posted 2021-04-20 2:29 AM (#611238 - in reply to #611119)
Subject: Re: Starter ring gear for a -58 Firesweep



Member

Posts: 42
25
Location: Luleå, Sweden
With the info above about the ring gear I called my local part dealer and they did not have any ring gear suited for my Desoto. When I told about the gear from ATP he told me that they do have all their ring gears from ATP. Te took the ATP-part number and bingo. There it was. One brand new on the shelf. It was not listed for Desoto and did have some other search errors in the part list.

But still, they do had it lying around.


About the starter. They did not have any starter when searching for the Desoto, but there was two options in, is they called hi tourqe or ministarters?.
One for MoPar 350-426 58-64 and one for MoPar 57-60 V8 everyone with 172 tooth

Difficult one. The first seems like it is the correct, but in different threads here I have read that the 61-forward start does not fit the earlyer engine blocks. And the second one for every V8 with 172 teeth ring gear does not seems wrong either. I discussed it with the dealer and we agreed to test with the 172-teeth starter. I would get it delivered in a couple of days. If it is the wrong starter, I have the possibility to return it and get the other one.

Do you think I made the right choise?

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Icy '58
Posted 2021-04-23 8:31 AM (#611321 - in reply to #611119)
Subject: Re: Starter ring gear for a -58 Firesweep



Member

Posts: 42
25
Location: Luleå, Sweden
The parts did arrive today. It was both a hurray and an o'no.

The ring gear looks great have the 172 teths and matches the old gear perfectly.

The starter was not as great. It had a 29mm gear that didn't matched the ring gear. (even though the specs sait that it should have a 25mm gear) And I suspect that the bolt pattern is totally wrong. This two bolt holes lines up with the gear axle and I am pretty suret that the original starter have the holes of set of the centerline.

Talked to the shop and I return this one and get an other instead. Out of stock at the moment, but incoming. We'll try out the "MoPar 350-426 58-64" instead. He will check that it got the 9 teeth 25mm (1") gear when it arrives to their stock.



(ministart.jpg)



(ministart fel.jpg)



(kuggkrans drev.jpg)



Attachments
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Attachments ministart.jpg (121KB - 292 downloads)
Attachments ministart fel.jpg (96KB - 290 downloads)
Attachments kuggkrans drev.jpg (74KB - 283 downloads)
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Icy '58
Posted 2021-08-16 2:51 PM (#614239 - in reply to #611119)
Subject: Re: Starter ring gear for a -58 Firesweep



Member

Posts: 42
25
Location: Luleå, Sweden
Some week of deliverance and the right ministarter arrived. Another months of summer and a lot of other stuffs and I have finally taken the transmission out and started to repair this.

I have now found an unsuspected issue that could be the reason that the cas is eating startergears for brekfest and ring-gears for lunch.

At the surface for the starter at the converter housing it is a unnatural wear. Like a starter have been loose for some time and eaten it self into the gearbox.
At the lower startermounting hole there is a edge of 0,8 mm (approx 0,03") and the edge around the upper startermountinghole is about 0,2mm (0,008") And between them it appears like it is no wear. That means that the starter is mounted in an angle that holds the startergear away from the ringgear with an not negliable ange.

0,8mm edge
https://www.maskinisten.net/userpix/394147_3OXBSHE0PZI801629137618.j...

0,2mm edge
https://www.maskinisten.net/userpix/394147_15D4ND61892ER1629137618.j...

What is the best solutions to straighten this up?

- Take of/fly cut 0,8mm (0,03") of the whole surface against the engine, resulting in a flat surface but can create trouble since the converter will be deeper in the gearbox. Is it even possible?
- Cut of the same amount only at the area where the starter is mounted. Then adjust the gear to gear distance with the shims supplied in the ministarterkit? I think this is best way. Is it something that I have not thought of before I leave it to a machinist?



Edited by Icy '58 2021-08-16 2:57 PM




(08mm.jpg)



(02mm.jpg)



(lyft desoto.jpg)



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Attachments 08mm.jpg (34KB - 204 downloads)
Attachments 02mm.jpg (33KB - 191 downloads)
Attachments lyft desoto.jpg (225KB - 202 downloads)
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57chizler
Posted 2021-08-17 3:15 PM (#614259 - in reply to #614239)
Subject: Re: Starter ring gear for a -58 Firesweep



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They make as peelable shim stock that could be used to shim up the different-depth wear spots in the housing face.



(Peel.PNG)



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Attachments Peel.PNG (124KB - 198 downloads)
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Icy '58
Posted 2023-06-01 4:07 AM (#629926 - in reply to #614259)
Subject: Re: Starter ring gear for a -58 Firesweep



Member

Posts: 42
25
Location: Luleå, Sweden
Hi. I am sorry for not keeping this tread on track. But I kind of lost the enthusiasm for a while when other things in life had to be prioritized.

The new ministarter arrived and the gerars and mounting, all seemed to fit properly. Or maybe not perfect. I had to grind of a bit of the inner edge of the mounting plate to make it fit the engineblock.

Then when the transmision was taken out of the car it was obvious that the worn out edge of the converter housing did not match the mountingplate of the starter.

The sollution i choosed whas to face of the area of the starter to make it flat.

But after this when the tranny was ready to be mounted in the car, I needed the space in the garage for an other urgent issue and I pushed out the car to an other storage. And there it has been sleeping ever since.

Adding pcis.
The first one is the new ministarter.
Second the ministarter compared to the original one. I can get the where the "mini" come from.
Third. The mountingplate tested in the slot for the starter. the wear of the housing is obvious and this will not work for a long time.
Fourth The original starter mounted on the converterhousing and compared to a L-square This do not look sustainable
fifth. Mounting plate mounted in the starterslot when converter and housing as a mockup in the car. Measuring the depth of the ring gear from the surface of the plate.
sixth. the resurfaced area on the converterhousing.


Edited by Icy '58 2023-06-01 4:23 AM




(ministart2.jpg)



(ministart3.jpg)



(ministart misspassning.jpg)



(misalignment.jpg)



(mmmtning.jpg)



(sprangkapa.jpg)



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Attachments ministart2.jpg (82KB - 74 downloads)
Attachments ministart3.jpg (146KB - 70 downloads)
Attachments ministart misspassning.jpg (208KB - 76 downloads)
Attachments misalignment.jpg (185KB - 74 downloads)
Attachments mmmtning.jpg (70KB - 68 downloads)
Attachments sprangkapa.jpg (101KB - 71 downloads)
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mikes2nd
Posted 2023-06-01 12:13 PM (#629935 - in reply to #611119)
Subject: Re: Starter ring gear for a -58 Firesweep


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yeah people list the wrong mini starter...

I made sure i got the right one.
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Powerflite
Posted 2023-06-01 1:44 PM (#629944 - in reply to #614259)
Subject: Re: Starter ring gear for a -58 Firesweep



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57chizler - 2021-08-17 12:15 PM

They make as peelable shim stock that could be used to shim up the different-depth wear spots in the housing face.


That's a cool product! Thanks for posting.
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Icy '58
Posted 2023-06-21 8:56 AM (#630325 - in reply to #611119)
Subject: Re: Starter ring gear for a -58 Firesweep



Member

Posts: 42
25
Location: Luleå, Sweden
A final report.

For the wiring. I connected the former positive feed from the original starter-relay to starter as trigger signal on the small connector on the ministarter and put a new positive cable from the battery.

The engine cranks really smooth, the sound from the starter is more like a modern car and not as a rock crusher as before.

Another benefit is that the engine starts much more easy, just a quick turn on the key and it ignite imediatly. I am really satisfied with this conversion.


Thanks for all help. It took a couple of years but now the Firesweep is drivable and is back on the road again.

Edited by Icy '58 2023-06-21 8:57 AM
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1960fury
Posted 2023-11-25 9:33 PM (#632864 - in reply to #611119)
Subject: Re: Starter ring gear for a -58 Firesweep



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I'm considering a new starter. What is the part # of the 58-61 (64) Mini Starter?
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1960fury
Posted 2023-11-27 1:15 PM (#632902 - in reply to #611119)
Subject: Re: Starter ring gear for a -58 Firesweep



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