The Forward Look Network
The Forward Look Network
Search | Statistics | User Listing Forums | Chat | eBay | Calendars | Albums | Skins | Language
You are logged in as a guest. ( logon | register )

Starter Solenoid Question
Jump to page : 1
Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page]
View previous thread :: View next thread
   Forward Look Technical Discussions -> Electrical, Battery and ChargingMessage format
 
jaded13640
Posted 2021-08-23 4:50 PM (#614422)
Subject: Starter Solenoid Question



Veteran

Posts: 295
100100252525
Hey guys, I've got a starter solenoid acting up. Being a generic looking solenoid I thought I might get lucky and the parts stores have it but they don't.
(57 Dodge Suburban 325 poly)
Craig might deal with something like that or he may prefer to stick closer to brakes. But I don't know, I haven't called him yet.
Can you guys recommend a source for that part?

Also, I need something that'll work to get me to the one cruise of the summer I live for which is this coming Sunday.
I know a Ford style of solenoid would do that same thing but I'm not at all familiar with Ford parts and which vehicles might have it.
I've had about 4 old clunker Ford trucks over the years that has exactly the solenoid that I'm thinking of but I can't tell you exactly what year they were.

So I'm hoping you guys can help me out. I need an automotive solenoid, (Ford style) to get me through until I can find the correct one.
We might even have one but I caught a cold the first day of the Flint Back to the Bricks rolling cruise and just starting to get over the cold now so I don't want to count on us having one even though it's fairly likely. It would take all day to look though everything in the two barns full of stuff but I've already got too much else to do. The day I got sick I left the car outside, it rained a little and then grass got cut the next morning. The car's a mess and that's going to take a full day if I'm back feeling 100%, but I'm not yet.

Maybe someone knows an exact year Ford truck that has the right style of solenoid. That would work assume it's still stocked. Maybe there's another way to go about this but I haven't thought of it because I'm still a bit sick.
It would be a shame to no make the "Bricks" events AND not make the Hines drive cruise too so any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Wayne

Update

I found and ordered a new one but I won't have it till it's too late to make it to my car cruise.
Someone that's familiar with this solenoid and the general Ford solenoid they used forever, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about and why I'd be willing to use a Ford part temporarily. The people that aren't particularly familiar with them will be like, "what the eff?" LOL.

I should have searched Ebay first, there's a ton of them available but I can't get any of them to my house by the 28th so I may end up using a Ford one for that day.

Anyway, thanks.

Edited by jaded13640 2021-08-23 5:21 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2021-08-23 6:49 PM (#614428 - in reply to #614422)
Subject: RE: Starter Solenoid Question



Expert 5K+

Posts: 8562
5000200010005002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
.
I think what you are looking for is a standard 4 pin external solenoid like this one. The two big copper terminals are for 12V power in and 12V power out. The small terminals are for 12V from the ignition switch when it is turned to start and the neutral safety switch. If a four pin 12V Ford solenoid is similar to that, use it.







REFERENCE: http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=69708&...



Top of the page Bottom of the page
jaded13640
Posted 2021-08-24 12:26 AM (#614437 - in reply to #614422)
Subject: Re: Starter Solenoid Question



Veteran

Posts: 295
100100252525
I just noticed in your pic the ground in case the neutral safety switch fails! LOL Mine was ran that way and the Neutral starting switch wasn't hooked up. I wondered why but it wasn't until I cleaned up under the hood that I found remnants of the wire here and there. It's just broke in two I guess and so it got wired to ground and all was well because of the push button shift AND neutral button start on mine, probably yours too. I wondered at first why you'd need a neutral safety switch when you didn't have a choice but start it in neutral....that's where the starter button was. But then I realized two other possibilities. One being a cable out of adjustment....started a race car in gear like that once... and the other was manual shift but I don't know if it had a start button somewhere on the dash or like the old Buicks had the starter button under the throttle pedal...bad plan in my opinion I know the ignition switch didn't have any start provision on my 57 anyway.

That's the picture of the one I ordered but not from Rock Auto. I've got a cruise I really want to go to on the 29th so of course it says it'll come on the 30th. LOL figures... but yea, a generic Ford would be just fine with me for that one day or so till the new one comes...What I don't know is what years Ford used them exactly like this. I've seen em with a push on terminal for the small wires or a threaded. The modern parts stores don't let you go back and rumage around besides these days after covid not much is stocked. They list the actual part for my car at Advance but it shows that it's built out of unubtainum. Along with a whole bunch of other parts. A lot of companies were forced to physically close except for what they deemed essential, which car parts are, but old car parts are not. I wonder how much of the aftermarket business had to be scaled back because of that? Now I guess they're struggling to get people back because unemployment paid so well. Are they still doing the bonuses?

Anyway...

Does anyone have an old ford that uses this exact style of solenoid? If so what year and model. Ford used that type of solenoid so much longer than anyone else the parts stores might actually have them on the shelf.

Edited by jaded13640 2021-08-24 12:40 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Old Ray
Posted 2021-08-24 9:22 AM (#614441 - in reply to #614437)
Subject: Re: Starter Solenoid Question



Extreme Veteran

Posts: 491
100100100100252525
Location: Invermere B.C. Canada - Rocky Mountains

jaded13640 - 2021-08-23 10:26 PM  Does anyone have an old ford that uses this exact style of solenoid? If so what year and model. Ford used that type of solenoid so much longer than anyone else the parts stores might actually have them on the shelf.

Of course they do, and you probably know this, but the Ford one, even though it will work, is much different from the Mopar one. As Dave has shown, the one small terminal is for the safety neutral switch and on a Ford that terminal is a 12 volt ignition by pass when cranking.  Apples and oranges. 

Top of the page Bottom of the page
sermey
Posted 2021-08-28 3:59 AM (#614561 - in reply to #614428)
Subject: RE: Starter Solenoid Question


Elite Veteran

Posts: 1127
100010025
Location: SWITZERLAND

Always clear and nice illustrated reply from Dave (56D500boy). We all appreciate this.  - SERGE -  

Top of the page Bottom of the page
57chizler
Posted 2021-08-28 12:23 PM (#614573 - in reply to #614428)
Subject: RE: Starter Solenoid Question



Expert

Posts: 3629
2000100050010025
Location: NorCal
56D500boy - 2021-08-23 3:49 PM
I think what you are looking for is a standard 4 pin external solenoid like this one. The two big copper terminals are for 12V power in and 12V power out. The small terminals are for 12V from the ignition switch when it is turned to start and the neutral safety switch. If a four pin 12V Ford solenoid is similar to that, use it.


You gotta be careful with 4-pin solenoids; most are as you describe but, on some, the second small terminal isn't for a NSS but is powered to bypass the ignition ballast resistor. These are usually marked "I" and "S" but not always.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2021-08-28 12:56 PM (#614574 - in reply to #614561)
Subject: RE: Starter Solenoid Question



Expert 5K+

Posts: 8562
5000200010005002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
sermey - 2021-08-28 12:59 AM
Always clear and nice illustrated reply from Dave (56D500boy). We all appreciate this.  - SERGE - 


Thanks Serge. I try.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
grant4405
Posted 2021-08-29 10:17 AM (#614591 - in reply to #614574)
Subject: RE: Starter Solenoid Question


Veteran

Posts: 142
10025
i hate to butt in but i have a long unanswered question and you guys sound like experts. I bought a new hispeed starter for my 58 dodge but it only has one wire. How would i wire it in or is the only solution a conventional two position ignition switch(car starts with the neutral button). Need help if you can, Thanks, Pat
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2021-08-29 10:34 AM (#614592 - in reply to #614591)
Subject: RE: Starter Solenoid Question



Expert 5K+

Posts: 8562
5000200010005002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
grant4405 - 2021-08-29 7:17 AM
i hate to butt in but i have a long unanswered question and you guys sound like experts. I bought a new hispeed starter for my 58 dodge but it only has one wire. How would i wire it in or is the only solution a conventional two position ignition switch(car starts with the neutral button). Need help if you can


I suggest that you have a read on this Neutral Starting Switch thread that I started a while back where you should find the info that you need, including this diagram:

Thread = http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=74501&...

Top of the page Bottom of the page
local2Ed
Posted 2021-09-09 7:27 AM (#614862 - in reply to #614422)
Subject: Re: Starter Solenoid Question


Extreme Veteran

Posts: 528
50025
I've repaired a few by drilling out the four rivets and cleaning the internal contacts and putting back together with 1/8" rivets.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
local2Ed
Posted 2021-09-09 7:27 AM (#614863 - in reply to #614422)
Subject: Re: Starter Solenoid Question


Extreme Veteran

Posts: 528
50025
I've repaired a few by drilling out the four rivets and cleaning the internal contacts and putting back together with 1/8" rivets.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
grant4405
Posted 2022-01-01 5:28 PM (#618089 - in reply to #614592)
Subject: RE: Starter Solenoid Question-58 dodge


Veteran

Posts: 142
10025
Can I get back on this subject after many month absence about my new hi-speed starter. I stupidly mis-described it as having one wire but it has two. The original starter has one wire. The diagram you so kindly sent me has a picture of a solenoid with three terminals but the car and all my other mopars have only two.. How can i wire this two-wire starter into the car and retain the neutral button start feature??? Pat
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2022-01-01 6:58 PM (#618093 - in reply to #618089)
Subject: RE: Starter Solenoid Question-58 dodge



Expert 5K+

Posts: 8562
5000200010005002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
grant4405 - 2022-01-01 2:28 PM
Can I get back on this subject after many month absence about my new hi-speed starter. I stupidly mis-described it as having one wire but it has two. The original starter has one wire. The diagram you so kindly sent me has a picture of a solenoid with three terminals but the car and all my other mopars have only two.. How can i wire this two-wire starter into the car and retain the neutral button start feature


Should be easy *BUT* to confirm your situation, can you post a photo of your starter so we don't have to imagine what the two wires are like?

At this point, I would guess that your new starter has an attached external solenoid and that one of the wires, the small one, is the trigger/signal wire from the ignition switch via the Neutral Starter button and the second wire is a larger gauge wire that is 12V power from the battery.

But photos would help.

Top of the page Bottom of the page
grant4405
Posted 2022-01-02 12:27 PM (#618112 - in reply to #618093)
Subject: RE: Starter Solenoid Question-58 dodge


Veteran

Posts: 142
10025
56D500boy - 2022-01-01 6:58 PM

grant4405 - 2022-01-01 2:28 PM
Can I get back on this subject after many month absence about my new hi-speed starter. I stupidly mis-described it as having one wire but it has two. The original starter has one wire. The diagram you so kindly sent me has a picture of a solenoid with three terminals but the car and all my other mopars have only two.. How can i wire this two-wire starter into the car and retain the neutral button start feature


Should be easy *BUT* to confirm your situation, can you post a photo of your starter so we don't have to imagine what the two wires are like?

At this point, I would guess that your new starter has an attached external solenoid and that one of the wires, the small one, is the trigger/signal wire from the ignition switch via the Neutral Starter button and the second wire is a larger gauge wire that is 12V power from the battery.

But photos would help.

:)

Here's a picture I just took, if I can get it to upload. The stud on the left is obviously for the existing line from the solenoid on the inner fender. The smaller blade terminal to the right of it is presumably for the solenoid on the starter itself. There is a pigtail connector for it included with the starter, but I don't know where to wire the other end to. The second picture is the solenoid on the inner fender. I hope these make sense.



(58_Regal_Lancer_Hi-Torque_Starter.jpg)



(58_Regal_Lancer_starter_solenoid_voltage_regulator.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments 58_Regal_Lancer_Hi-Torque_Starter.jpg (88KB - 51 downloads)
Attachments 58_Regal_Lancer_starter_solenoid_voltage_regulator.jpg (123KB - 49 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2022-01-02 12:53 PM (#618113 - in reply to #618112)
Subject: RE: Starter Solenoid Question-58 dodge



Expert 5K+

Posts: 8562
5000200010005002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
.
Pat: Your existing starter solenoid has been used/abused by somebody, using it as a power source for who knows what.

As I posted previously, there are really only supposed to be four wires on the OE starter solenoid (see below). Do you want to keep the neutral safety switch (I think you should)?

Is the starter trigger wire a connection under that black plastic cap on your aftermarket starter?

*IF* that is true, and you wanted to keep as much of the OE 57 Dodge starting circuit system in place, I would modify the stock wiring as follows:

1. I would remove the heavy (10 gauge?) wire from the battery to the input lug of the OE four post starter solenoid.

2. I would run a thinnish (16 gauge?) red wire from the positive terminal of the battery to the lug that you just removed the heavy gauge wire from.

3. I would buy a new long red (just to make it clear that it is positive battery voltage) cable from the batter to the big lug on the new aftermarket starter

4. I would remove the cable from the output lug of the OE starter solenoid that used to run to the OE starter.

5. I would run a blue 16 gauge trigger wire from the output terminal of the OE starter solenoid to the trigger wire connection on the new aftermarket solenoid that is
attached to the new starter.

As shown in the attached diagram (modification of the factory training diagram).

Original (with 4 wires to the OE solenoid):



The modified version that should use the OE solenoid and all the neutral safety and neutral start stuff to send a trigger signal to the new starter solenoid:



Edited by 56D500boy 2022-01-02 4:23 PM




(ProposedWiringModificationsToConnectAfterMarketStarterToOE57DodgeStartingCircuit.jpg)



Attachments
----------------
Attachments ProposedWiringModificationsToConnectAfterMarketStarterToOE57DodgeStartingCircuit.jpg (132KB - 50 downloads)
Top of the page Bottom of the page
grant4405
Posted 2022-01-02 6:50 PM (#618115 - in reply to #618113)
Subject: RE: Starter Solenoid Question-58 dodge


Veteran

Posts: 142
10025

this car has had many owners and many mechanics over the years so many things have been tinkered with . I am assuming that the second connector on the new starter is for the switch I am going to follow your direction to the T and see what happens. And yes i do want to keep the neutral safety. I am too old and careless to do otherwise. Many, many thanks for your time and trouble and it may take a while to report the results but i will let you know. Pat.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
mobileparts
Posted 2022-01-04 6:42 AM (#618137 - in reply to #614422)
Subject: Re: Starter Solenoid Question


Veteran

Posts: 243
10010025
Just wondered onto this thread.... I do have the 100 % correct ones --- N.O.S. aftermarket
Mopar Starter Solenoids--- both the Automatic and Standard--- different part numbers....

Always best to simply call me --- 516 - 485 - 1935 --- Craig.....

(They LOOK similar to Fords, but quite likely are wired internally differently; they have a different part number for a reason.....)


Edited by mobileparts 2022-01-04 6:46 AM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
grant4405
Posted 2022-02-02 6:05 PM (#618979 - in reply to #618113)
Subject: RE: Starter Solenoid Question-58 dodge


Veteran

Posts: 142
10025
Well, I finally got a couple of decent days to try your diagram. I have interior lites but no cranking with the neutral button. I am using a new ignition switch which i located this month and have a new solenoid on the way. Do you think it might be the old solenoid or any thoughts you might have.? Thanks, Pat
Top of the page Bottom of the page
56D500boy
Posted 2022-02-02 9:04 PM (#618984 - in reply to #618979)
Subject: RE: Starter Solenoid Question-58 dodge



Expert 5K+

Posts: 8562
5000200010005002525
Location: Lower Mainland BC
grant4405 - 2022-02-02 3:05 PM
Well, I finally got a couple of decent days to try your diagram. I have interior lites but no cranking with the neutral button. I am using a new ignition switch
which i located this month and have a new solenoid on the way. Do you think it might be the old solenoid or any thoughts you might have.?
Thanks, Pat


Could be anything. With the aid of a helper (to push the Neutral Starting Button), you need to check (with a multimeter) that you get 12V to the OE four post starter solenoid. No 12V = no start,
either because you have wired the ignition switch incorrectly, or there is an issue with the neutral starting switch at the back of the shifter box, or there is a problem with the vacuum lockout switch
(or all of the above). If you do get 12V at the OE solenoid but still no start, it could be the neutral safety switch on the transmission.
The way to check that would be to jumper the neutral safety switch terminal on the OE solenoid to ground and try again. If that works, then the issue is then the issue is with the neutral s
afety switch on the transmission. If it doesn't work and you have 12V coming into the solenoid, the issue is somethign to do with the OE starter solenoid = replace it.

The game here is to have a bunch of things work properly so the OE starter Solenoid kicks out a trigger signal to your new starter solenoid on the new starter.

REFERENCE:

1. http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=74501&...
2. http://www.forwardlook.net/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=69708&...





Edited by 56D500boy 2022-02-02 9:09 PM
Top of the page Bottom of the page
grant4405
Posted 2022-02-03 10:02 AM (#618999 - in reply to #618984)
Subject: Re: Starter Solenoid Question


Veteran

Posts: 142
10025
Gotcha. old stuff is hard to deal with. Will keep at it. Thanks.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
local2Ed
Posted 2022-02-03 10:11 AM (#619003 - in reply to #618979)
Subject: RE: Starter Solenoid Question-58 dodge


Extreme Veteran

Posts: 528
50025
grant4405 - 2022-02-02 6:05 PM

Well, I finally got a couple of decent days to try your diagram. I have interior lites but no cranking with the neutral button. I am using a new ignition switch which i located this month and have a new solenoid on the way. Do you think it might be the old solenoid or any thoughts you might have.? Thanks, Pat


Don't know if this helps you, but as you know the TorqueFlite starts with the neutral button but a 6cyl. PowerFlite car starts with a turn of the key.
This is for a 1958 model Dodge which you say you have.
Just mentioning this because you said you replaced the ignition switch.

Without looking at both key switch diagrams I can't say if there is a difference in the switches.
Top of the page Bottom of the page
Jump to page : 1
Now viewing page 1 [50 messages per page]
Jump to forum :
Search this forum
Printer friendly version
E-mail a link to this thread



(Delete all cookies set by this site)