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4 speed swap into 60-64 FL car. Tips?
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goldencommando
Posted 2022-03-03 5:25 PM (#619963)
Subject: 4 speed swap into 60-64 FL car. Tips?


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Hi. I am planning a 4 speed swap in a 60 Chrysler Windsor. Has anyone else done this in a 60-64 FL car? Mine is a pushbutton automatic car, so the column is a non issue. I am planning on using an aluminum 10.5" bellhousing and flywheel for the weight savings, and also an 833 Overdrive from a 80's pickup.
I have the manual pedals from a 61 Plymouth that will bolt right in. I know I will have to create a Z bar, and transmission mount, but that's no problem.

examples:
I will have to sort out a speedo cable.

I would like to use headers or better flowing manifolds if I can find some that fit. This is the short nose model [122" wheelbase]

I am considering swapping to manual steering. I have several 60-64 FL parts cars to take parts from. What columns can I use the parts from? I know the manual steering cars have a larger tube and different steering wheels because of this. I'd sure like to to retain my clear steering wheel if possible.

Anyone have tips to share?

Edited by goldencommando 2022-03-03 5:32 PM
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Powerflite
Posted 2022-03-03 6:10 PM (#619964 - in reply to #619963)
Subject: RE: 4 speed swap into 60-64 FL car. Tips?



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I will have to sort out a speedo cable.

No problem. The ends on the 4-speed are the same as the later autos, so just pull a cable from a newer car.

I would like to use headers or better flowing manifolds if I can find some that fit. This is the short nose model [122" wheelbase]

Many options to choose from. The later HP manifolds should fit, as one option.

I am considering swapping to manual steering. I have several 60-64 FL parts cars to take parts from. What columns can I use the parts from? I know the manual steering cars have a larger tube and different steering wheels because of this. I'd sure like to to retain my clear steering wheel if possible.

That's hardcore. I have a manual steering '57 Windsor, and it's a real chore to maneuver when parking. I don't have enough experience with the '60's steering columns to comment further.
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goldencommando
Posted 2022-03-03 6:32 PM (#619966 - in reply to #619964)
Subject: RE: 4 speed swap into 60-64 FL car. Tips?


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Powerflite - 2022-03-03 6:10 PM


I will have to sort out a speedo cable.

No problem. The ends on the 4-speed are the same as the later autos, so just pull a cable from a newer car.

I would like to use headers or better flowing manifolds if I can find some that fit. This is the short nose model [122" wheelbase]

Many options to choose from. The later HP manifolds should fit, as one option.

I am considering swapping to manual steering. I have several 60-64 FL parts cars to take parts from. What columns can I use the parts from? I know the manual steering cars have a larger tube and different steering wheels because of this. I'd sure like to to retain my clear steering wheel if possible.

That's hardcore. I have a manual steering '57 Windsor, and it's a real chore to maneuver when parking. I don't have enough experience with the '60's steering columns to comment further.


Thanks for your input. The speedo cable isn't quite that simple, because the later cables use the white plastic push on end for the speedo. So I need a cable that fits the 1960 thread on speedo fitting at one end, and the 1966 and newer transmission end on the other. I do recall there being a cable like that for some application, so if anyone knows, that would help.

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Powerflite
Posted 2022-03-03 7:39 PM (#619967 - in reply to #619963)
Subject: Re: 4 speed swap into 60-64 FL car. Tips?



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'67 and older have the threaded end on the speedometer heads, so you can get one from a '66-'67 vehicle. The older cars also have a standard thread at the trans end so you might be able to just use your original cable. I'm not so certain of '60, but definitely true of '58-older. I even used my original '56 Plymouth cable on a 700R4 transmission.

Edited by Powerflite 2022-03-03 7:41 PM
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goldencommando
Posted 2022-03-04 12:04 AM (#619972 - in reply to #619967)
Subject: Re: 4 speed swap into 60-64 FL car. Tips?


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I think you are right about the cable. I'll do some scrounging. Thanks
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60 dart
Posted 2022-03-04 12:36 AM (#619973 - in reply to #619963)
Subject: Re: 4 speed swap into 60-64 FL car. Tips?



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i have a 64-65 , 833 in my 60 pioneer but with a 69 main shaft and housing and a custom drive shaft . the biggest install problem
was the z bar / linkage setup , not hard but time consuming . the over the center spring on the pedal assembly , i did away
with . the clutch and throw out bearing and clutch assembly with flywheel are Mcleod . everything that can be bought inside the
trans was new from passon performance except...... i'm not sure where i got the synchronizers . on drown shifts all gears rake . i
talked to jaime passon himself with his advice being i have the wrong synchros , which two different sets were made and i most
likely got sold the wrong set . so i have an oem spare 64-65 under the bench to compare factory synchros to the ones i installed.
the mcleod clutch is way stiff to push so thinkin bout a hydraulic slave might be coming my way .
i told my wife a while back i was thinkin bout a TCI torqueflite lever shift but at 3grand i'll probably stick with the 833 at least
til i get the shift problem sorted
steering to manual ........ i did that to , even completely rebuilt the box myself oem partsfor @400$ and built my own column and kept the dart
standard wheel and top half factory . the thing is standing still its tough , moving its better , open highway easier than our new jeep to stear .
the speedo cable is a bolt up
the trans cross member is a factory modified one
now the parking brake everyone wants to call an emergency brake . the oem foot brake is not an emergency brake but a "parking brake" . hell ,
it won't hold in the driveway let alone stopping/slowing at 60 mph . i do have a center hump hand brake but its mostly for the state inspection to
see but i do have a complete aftermarket rear disc system to install with a cable activated juice parking brake waiting -------------------------later
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58coupe
Posted 2022-03-04 12:00 PM (#619983 - in reply to #619963)
Subject: Re: 4 speed swap into 60-64 FL car. Tips?



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You have several problems. You cannot just bolt the newer bell housing and flywheel to a 60 engine unless you have the proper adapter for the crankshaft or replace the crank with a 62 or newer one. You should run a steel or iron flywheel in a heavy car like a Windsor, it helps in getting the car moving, better drive ability on the street. You should not remove the over center spring on the clutch pedal unless running a diaphragm style clutch or you will have a heavy pedal like 60 dart said. There are 2 basic styles of 833, short tailhousing used in A bodies and long tailhousing used in full sized cars. I think the longer style would be better to use for you. The stock Chrysler bell housings have either a threaded hole or a bolt on bracket to support the z bar and the 61 should have a bolt on bracket to support the other end. hope this helps.
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1960fury
Posted 2022-03-04 6:06 PM (#620001 - in reply to #619973)
Subject: Re: 4 speed swap into 60-64 FL car. Tips?



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60 dart - 2022-03-04 12:36 AM


now the parking brake everyone wants to call an emergency brake . the oem foot brake is not an emergency brake but a "parking brake" . hell ,
it won't hold in the driveway let alone stopping/slowing at 60 mph .


The manual transmission external type?

The internal expanding (auto) one locks the tires anytime with the slightest push and holds the car on the steepest grade without a problem. It scares the heck out of the inspectors in the bi-anual german safety check each time, since it makes the car literally jump out of the test rollers.

They say it is the most effective parking brake they ever tested. It is a bone stock OE factory parking brake. Just needs to be properly adjusted.

It is so scaringly effective, that the thought about having someting in the driveline that can easily lock the rear tires at top speed is uncomfortable. I thought about "detuning" it.

Edited by 1960fury 2022-03-04 6:07 PM
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60 dart
Posted 2022-03-04 6:18 PM (#620002 - in reply to #619963)
Subject: Re: 4 speed swap into 60-64 FL car. Tips?



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i do have a diaphragm and its heavy but i think the problem is mostly the geometry of the z bar in relationship
to engineering of where it fits . the stock ball stud on the frame had to go also as it just made more sense
to fab a new one than use the oem one i have . the motor side bracket also is fabbed bracket . lining everything
up to operate geometricly was not a 10 minute job ----------------------------later
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58coupe
Posted 2022-03-04 8:13 PM (#620003 - in reply to #619963)
Subject: Re: 4 speed swap into 60-64 FL car. Tips?



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Chuck, I didn't mean to imply you did anything wrong. Hasn't happened to me but there is a risk of the diaphragm clutch sticking on the floor on a high rpm shift if the overcenter spring is left in.
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goldencommando
Posted 2022-03-04 8:39 PM (#620005 - in reply to #619983)
Subject: Re: 4 speed swap into 60-64 FL car. Tips?


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58coupe - 2022-03-04 12:00 PM

You have several problems. You cannot just bolt the newer bell housing and flywheel to a 60 engine unless you have the proper adapter for the crankshaft or replace the crank with a 62 or newer one. You should run a steel or iron flywheel in a heavy car like a Windsor, it helps in getting the car moving, better drive ability on the street. You should not remove the over center spring on the clutch pedal unless running a diaphragm style clutch or you will have a heavy pedal like 60 dart said. There are 2 basic styles of 833, short tailhousing used in A bodies and long tailhousing used in full sized cars. I think the longer style would be better to use for you. The stock Chrysler bell housings have either a threaded hole or a bolt on bracket to support the z bar and the 61 should have a bolt on bracket to support the other end. hope this helps.


I should clarify that I am running a 1970 440, long ram intakes, with a 10.5 steel flywheel, aluminum bellhousing, centerforce clutch with no over center spring, a long tailshaft 833 overdrive, a 65-69 8 3/4 rear end with park brake cables converted to the conventional 65-68 rear drum system.
I plan to build my own Z bar and related linkage, mostly by modifying OEM linkage parts. I have 40 years experience on FL cars. This one is more of a custom build, so I'm open to ideas. I do want manual steering and brakes, partly because I am reducing the weight, so the converting the 60 Chrysler steering column to manual steering is probably my main modification. I will probably just combine/modify the 61 Plymouth manual steering inner tube etc to make my own hybrid to retain the 60 Chrysler steering wheel
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60 dart
Posted 2022-03-04 11:49 PM (#620009 - in reply to #620003)
Subject: Re: 4 speed swap into 60-64 FL car. Tips?



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58coupe - 2022-03-04 8:13 PM

Chuck, I didn't mean to imply you did anything wrong. Hasn't happened to me but there is a risk of the diaphragm clutch sticking on the floor on a high rpm shift if the overcenter spring is left in.



its all good kiddo!
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Mike P
Posted 2022-03-06 6:13 PM (#620050 - in reply to #619963)
Subject: RE: 4 speed swap into 60-64 FL car. Tips?


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I’ll start off saying my experience is with an A833 overdrive 4 speed behind a 354 HEMI in a 57 Plymouth so this is pretty much a FWIW/take it with a grain of salt post.


In my case I’m using a cast iron case A833 with short tail housing that I lucked across. Several of the aluminum case units I looked at were junk due to being cracked or in one case stripped backup light switch hole.


[img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51922415631_bf81765dce_z.jpg[/img]trans by M Patterson, on Flickr


Overall I’ve been very happy with the trans and the shifter location is ideal for my car. The 2-3 gear splits leave a bit to be desired but I got used to it and it effectively drops the 4.10 gear set I’m using to a 3.0.



“……I would like to use headers or better flowing manifolds if I can find some that fit. This is the short nose model [122" wheelbase]……”



I realize it’s a completely different car, but on a 57 Dodge Coronet I built with 440 many years ago, factory 70-71 HIPO manifolds cleared everything including the factory PS. I think I figured out that max wedge manifolds/headers would probably work too. It might be worth a look.


[img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51922415616_f0ded1d6ca_z.jpg[/img]HI PO MANIFOLDS by M Patterson, on Flickr




“………i do have a diaphragm and its heavy but i think the problem is mostly the geometry of the z bar in relationship to engineering of where it fits . the stock ball stud on the frame had to go also as it just made more sense to fab a new one than use the oem one i have . the motor side bracket also is fabbed bracket . lining everything up to operate geometricly was not a 10 minute job………”



I hear you. When I did the 57 I started with a complete 57 assembly to include the Z bar. I did remake the Z bar (the original was too wide as I recall). My starting point for the new Z bar was from a 70’s Dodge truck as I recall. I was able to duplicate the factory angles and linkage hole locations. With everything set up the way the factory had done the clutch was extremely stiff and quick (even after changing out the Bork and Beck for a diaphragm clutch).

I put up with it for a few years and one day it hit me the problem wasn’t with the factory linkage or Z bar, it was with the length of the clutch fork that came with the later bellhousing I was using.

The solution was simple, I built an extension that added about 1 ½” to the length of the clutch fork.


It screwed to 2 holes I had drilled fork and was held on with 2 grade 8 bolts until I was satisfied with the length then welded it to the fork in a couple of places.


[img]https://live.staticflickr.com/4465/37945191452_a51d2fb563_z.jpg[/img]57 ext by M Patterson, on Flickr


It made a night and day difference and the nice thing was it was all done in car with no major disassembly required.
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AceS
Posted 2022-03-16 10:40 PM (#620296 - in reply to #620005)
Subject: Re: 4 speed swap into 60-64 FL car. Tips?



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goldencommando - 2022-03-04 5:39 AM

I should clarify that I am running a 1970 440, long ram intakes, with a 10.5 steel flywheel, aluminum bellhousing, centerforce clutch with no over center spring, a long tailshaft 833 overdrive, a 65-69 8 3/4 rear end with park brake cables converted to the conventional 65-68 rear drum system.
I plan to build my own Z bar and related linkage, mostly by modifying OEM linkage parts. I have 40 years experience on FL cars. This one is more of a custom build, so I'm open to ideas. I do want manual steering and brakes, partly because I am reducing the weight, so the converting the 60 Chrysler steering column to manual steering is probably my main modification. I will probably just combine/modify the 61 Plymouth manual steering inner tube etc to make my own hybrid to retain the 60 Chrysler steering wheel


I am running a 440/833 in my 60 Plymouth pretty much with the same modifications as you, however a significant difference being a z-'d frame clip and 78 Aspen suspension, PS, PB, and pedals. I made the z-bar and other linkage from my 4-speed parts bins. I used the Aspen hump for the shifter but wish I had made something smaller to better fit stock carpet kits.

Other input:

Make sure the bell you have fits the larger input bearing retainer of the 833 OD. Since they did not make a stock RB/B bell to fit the 833 OD, the bell you have might not work. Lakewood makes a scattershield for the B/RB to 833OD conversion, or there is plenty of room to machine the bell hole out to fit the larger OD bearing retainer.

As far as a shifter goes, I used the forward mount shifter, linkage, and handle common to B bodies 70 and earlier. Don't use a rear mount shifter because it is too far back, and definitely won't work with a bench seat.

Lastly, I assume your 833 OD is an aluminum case since it is from 1980? I've been told by racers that the countershaft socket in the aluminum case trans can oblong when you apply a lot of HP or hard shifting. The supposed solution is to have bushings machined in for the countershaft. They will hold up as long as you don't bang the gear too hard: I have one behind a very warm 383 in a car I run in the Silver State Challenge (165mph) where hard shifting is not a needed. I know that there were iron case 833 ODs from V8 cars in the early run of the ODs. Perhaps they used them in trucks too? I don't come across them often.
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goldencommando
Posted 2022-03-17 8:10 PM (#620312 - in reply to #620296)
Subject: Re: 4 speed swap into 60-64 FL car. Tips?


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AceS - 2022-03-16 10:40 PM

goldencommando - 2022-03-04 5:39 AM

I should clarify that I am running a 1970 440, long ram intakes, with a 10.5 steel flywheel, aluminum bellhousing, centerforce clutch with no over center spring, a long tailshaft 833 overdrive, a 65-69 8 3/4 rear end with park brake cables converted to the conventional 65-68 rear drum system.
I plan to build my own Z bar and related linkage, mostly by modifying OEM linkage parts. I have 40 years experience on FL cars. This one is more of a custom build, so I'm open to ideas. I do want manual steering and brakes, partly because I am reducing the weight, so the converting the 60 Chrysler steering column to manual steering is probably my main modification. I will probably just combine/modify the 61 Plymouth manual steering inner tube etc to make my own hybrid to retain the 60 Chrysler steering wheel


I am running a 440/833 in my 60 Plymouth pretty much with the same modifications as you, however a significant difference being a z-'d frame clip and 78 Aspen suspension, PS, PB, and pedals. I made the z-bar and other linkage from my 4-speed parts bins. I used the Aspen hump for the shifter but wish I had made something smaller to better fit stock carpet kits.

Other input:

Make sure the bell you have fits the larger input bearing retainer of the 833 OD. Since they did not make a stock RB/B bell to fit the 833 OD, the bell you have might not work. Lakewood makes a scattershield for the B/RB to 833OD conversion, or there is plenty of room to machine the bell hole out to fit the larger OD bearing retainer.

As far as a shifter goes, I used the forward mount shifter, linkage, and handle common to B bodies 70 and earlier. Don't use a rear mount shifter because it is too far back, and definitely won't work with a bench seat.

Lastly, I assume your 833 OD is an aluminum case since it is from 1980? I've been told by racers that the countershaft socket in the aluminum case trans can oblong when you apply a lot of HP or hard shifting. The supposed solution is to have bushings machined in for the countershaft. They will hold up as long as you don't bang the gear too hard: I have one behind a very warm 383 in a car I run in the Silver State Challenge (165mph) where hard shifting is not a needed. I know that there were iron case 833 ODs from V8 cars in the early run of the ODs. Perhaps they used them in trucks too? I don't come across them often.


Thanks for your input. I can turn the bearing retainer down to fit the bellhousing, so that isn't an issue. The aluminum case 833 OD's do sometimes have the bore issue, but I will deal with that if needed. I'm not a power shifting maniac, but I do want the fun of a 4 speed, plus the highway cruising of the OD gear. I wish there was a cheap way to put a 5 speed behind a big block Mopar, but this is a budget build, so I'll use what I have kicking around.
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wayfarer
Posted 2022-04-07 1:25 PM (#620782 - in reply to #619963)
Subject: Re: 4 speed swap into 60-64 FL car. Tips?



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I admit it has been awhile since I had an OD retainer in my hands but, better recheck that retainer...I don't think you have enough excess material to turn it down that far.
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