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Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner
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56D500boy
Posted 2023-02-12 9:08 PM (#627553)
Subject: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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I recently participated in a thread regarding PCV valves started by '55-3hemi regarding his 1955 270 hemi.

In that thread, I became aware of Hot Hemi Heads offering kit that included a grommet that fits into the lifter gallery/valley cover where the roaddraft tube exits the pan. I ordered a kit (actually 2 kits, one for me and one for Dels56)

https://www.hothemiheads.com/dodge/valley_pans_related/pcv_stock_val...

The kits have not arrived yet but in the mean time, I have been looking at my engine and the location of the road draft tube and the bottom of my converted oil bath to figure out the best location for a nipple for a hose from the PCV valve in the HotHemiHeads grommet to the air cleaner (the only location that I will put the crank case oil vapours into my engine, thank you very much).

Yesterday, while fooling around with the idle speed screw, I took the air cleaner off the carb and had a good look at the location of the road draft tube. I also had a good look at my converted oil bath air cleaner and realized that both the bottom and the outer side are double-walled, which will create some challenges with the routing of the vapours.

I think that I only have two choices for location of the entrance nipple:

1. At the back of the air cleaner
2. At the bottom rear of the air cleaner

Both options will have pro's and con's. I will have to think on it a bit while the grommet is in transit. I see some 1/2" copper tubing and probably some soldering in my future.

I am leaning towards option 2, straight up from the grommet, through the double-walled bottom, into the annulus space between the filter and vertical inner air cleaner wall. I can envision a copper "T" with two perforated curved bendable copper pipe arms to disperse the vapours. (???) (I've sketched this out on the back of a literal envelope and I think it is doable. Need to find some grommets at Lowes for the air cleaner holes).

Some photos of the situation, starting with a factory cross-section of a two barrel oil bath air cleaner (4 bbls are mostly the same), just to show the nature of the double walls:



Edited by 56D500boy 2023-02-13 9:59 AM




(OilBathAirCleanerCrossSection_Base.jpg)



(ConvertedD500OilBathCleanerWithPaperFiltersShowingAnnulusSpace.jpg)



(ConvertedD500OilBathCleanerShowingAnnulusSpaceBetweenTheAirCleanerShellAndThePaperFilterrs.jpg)



(56DodgeRoadDraftTubeAtBackOfLifterGalleryCover.jpg)



(56Dodge4bblAirCleanerSittingAboveDraftTubeFittingOnValleyPan_ShowingAlternativeConnectionPointsForPCVvalveNipple.jpg)



(ConvertedD500OilBathCleanerShowingAlternativeLocationsForAPCVvalveEntranceNipple.jpg)



(ConvertedD500OilBathCleanerBaseShowingPotentialAreaToLocateAPCVNippleDischarge.jpg)



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Attachments OilBathAirCleanerCrossSection_Base.jpg (148KB - 100 downloads)
Attachments ConvertedD500OilBathCleanerWithPaperFiltersShowingAnnulusSpace.jpg (149KB - 97 downloads)
Attachments ConvertedD500OilBathCleanerShowingAnnulusSpaceBetweenTheAirCleanerShellAndThePaperFilterrs.jpg (148KB - 85 downloads)
Attachments 56DodgeRoadDraftTubeAtBackOfLifterGalleryCover.jpg (144KB - 87 downloads)
Attachments 56Dodge4bblAirCleanerSittingAboveDraftTubeFittingOnValleyPan_ShowingAlternativeConnectionPointsForPCVvalveNipple.jpg (229KB - 82 downloads)
Attachments ConvertedD500OilBathCleanerShowingAlternativeLocationsForAPCVvalveEntranceNipple.jpg (249KB - 94 downloads)
Attachments ConvertedD500OilBathCleanerBaseShowingPotentialAreaToLocateAPCVNippleDischarge.jpg (147KB - 95 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2023-02-13 7:38 PM (#627574 - in reply to #627553)
Subject: RE: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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I did a rough sketch of what I was thinking to disperse the crankcase vapours inside my 56 Dodge's converted oil bath air cleaner last night before I went to bed. I thought about it while falling asleep. Looked at the sketch before I went to the gym (Planet Fitness) at 8 AM. On the way home I stopped at "RONA" (think lame Home Depot) and bought a copper 1/2" tee and a 1/2" PVC electrical bushing. I will probably get rubber gromments from Lowes but it is a pain to drive there so when I got home from RONA, I started sourcing the rest of the components for the conceptual mock-up, i.e.

1. 1/2" PEX water pipe as the stand-in for the bendable soft copper that I was thinking.
2. A piece of 1/2" rigid copper to go through the double-walls of the converted air cleaner
3. A 1/2" to 3/8" barbed reducer (for the connection to the hose from the PCV valve.

I mocked those up and tried them in air cleaner with one of the two Pinto air cleaner elements that I am running. Even with the nipple pointed up, it was apparent that this was going to work - once I source some bendable copper pipe that I will drill to release the crankcase vapours somewhat evenly.

Then I realized that nothing was stopping me from drilling through the double layer or the air cleaner base and hogging the holes out until the 1/2" rigid copper would pass through the combined holes.

Once I had the holes big enough, I retried the conceptual assembly, with a longer nipple, and determined that while some more refinements are needed, the back-of-the-envelop idea was going to work.

The Hot Heads grommets were delivered to Point Roberts today. I won't be able to retrieve them until Wednesday at the earliest.

In the meantime, I need to vacuum some metal shaving out of the double-walled void.

The concept:





(VapourDispersionInsideConvertedOilBathAirCleaner_ConceptualSketch.jpg)



(VapourDispersionInsideConvertedOilBathAirCleaner_RoughComponentAssembly.jpg)



(VapourDispersionInsideConvertedOilBathAirCleaner_TestingComponentAssemblyForFit_BeforeDrillingHoles.jpg)



(VapourDispersionInsideConvertedOilBathAirCleaner_TestingComponentAssemblyForFit_AfterDrillingHoles.jpg)



(VapourDispersionInsideConvertedOilBathAirCleaner_InletNippleAndBarbedReducerWithBushing.jpg)



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Attachments VapourDispersionInsideConvertedOilBathAirCleaner_ConceptualSketch.jpg (149KB - 95 downloads)
Attachments VapourDispersionInsideConvertedOilBathAirCleaner_RoughComponentAssembly.jpg (146KB - 90 downloads)
Attachments VapourDispersionInsideConvertedOilBathAirCleaner_TestingComponentAssemblyForFit_BeforeDrillingHoles.jpg (149KB - 86 downloads)
Attachments VapourDispersionInsideConvertedOilBathAirCleaner_TestingComponentAssemblyForFit_AfterDrillingHoles.jpg (149KB - 93 downloads)
Attachments VapourDispersionInsideConvertedOilBathAirCleaner_InletNippleAndBarbedReducerWithBushing.jpg (148KB - 87 downloads)
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Powerflite
Posted 2023-02-13 8:31 PM (#627580 - in reply to #627553)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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I would solder this flange to your pipe and screw or solder it to the bottom of your air cleaner. If you braze around the hole first, you should be able to solder it in place.
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Sioux-Chief-505-24-1-2-Copper-CTS-Tube-S...

Also, I personally wouldn't worry about even distribution at this point. The only downside would be that it may soil your air filter element at one point. But I don't see that as a big downside. The negative side of trying to distribute it evenly, is that you are partially blocking the airflow around the air filter. I would eliminate the white tubes, and just have the "Tee" in there.

Edited by Powerflite 2023-02-13 8:34 PM
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samstrader
Posted 2023-02-13 9:38 PM (#627583 - in reply to #627553)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner


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This is very interesting to me because I have the same engine and am thinking about a PCV system. I agree with Nathan that you don't need the distributor. Cars in the 70's and 80's just had a one spot location for the vapors to enter and it got that part of the air filter dirty but there was still plenty of clean air filter for the air flow needed. My daughter's 2002 Honda CRV is the same way with just one spot for the vapors to enter the air cleaner and the part of the air filter close to that inlet gets oily..

I really like the picture of the air cleaner you included. What is the purpose of that big double wall I wonder? I didn't realize the air filter had the double walls like that and I have the exact same air cleaner that's in this picture.

Is it possible to tap into just the outer can on the bottom and then drill a few 1/4 inch holes from the chamber into the air intake up near the top where the fresh air first enters the air cleaner? The vapor flow would be from the bottom of the outer can up to near the top of the outer can and then into the annulus where the fresh air is downflowing heading to the oil bath. That would distribute the vapors because the vapors would mix with fresh air in the fresh air inlet annulus and then get sucked into the filter. I know you have filters instead of the oil bath but I'm using the oil bath picture to try to describe what I mean. I think a little oil will build up in the outer can with this set up so there would need to be a way to drain it. But there is going to be oil to deal with one way or the other when the vapors are sucked into the air cleaner. This thought is based on my thinking that the outer can is a dead air space and nothing is connected to it. If something is connected to that chamber, this thought won't work.
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56D500boy
Posted 2023-02-14 1:55 AM (#627591 - in reply to #627583)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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Thanks for your comments Nathan and Sam.

I agree that a distribution header for the vapours might not be needed. I found a photo of a 340 LA engine air cleaner with a PCV hose nipple on the side. It just dumps into the air cleaner housing on the outside of the paper air filter without any baffles or anything. In contrast, they provided baffles at the location of the two snorkles to distribute the inlet air around the filter element. See attached photos.

As for doing this for an oil bath air cleaner, I think that it would be possible to seal the inlet tube to the inner shell such that the outlet "Tee" is well above the oil level and there would be no leakage of oil.

I really don't like the idea of letting oil vapours run around willy-nilly inside of the double-walled shell. Seems like that would be asking for trouble. (In my opinion).





Edited by 56D500boy 2023-02-14 1:58 AM




(340AirCleanerShowingPCVNippleOnOutSide.jpg)



(340AirCleanerShowingPCVNippleOnInside_NoBaffleForPCV.jpg)



(InletTeeLocationWouldBeBelowTheOilLevelInAnOilBathAirCleaner.jpg)



(InletTeeArrangedToSitWellAboveTheOilLevelInAnOilBathAirFliter.jpg)



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Attachments 340AirCleanerShowingPCVNippleOnOutSide.jpg (137KB - 88 downloads)
Attachments 340AirCleanerShowingPCVNippleOnInside_NoBaffleForPCV.jpg (145KB - 91 downloads)
Attachments InletTeeLocationWouldBeBelowTheOilLevelInAnOilBathAirCleaner.jpg (146KB - 85 downloads)
Attachments InletTeeArrangedToSitWellAboveTheOilLevelInAnOilBathAirFliter.jpg (149KB - 93 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2023-02-14 3:05 PM (#627606 - in reply to #627591)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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Del S. (Dels56) just sent me this:

"Hi, photo of my 71 Scamp air cleaner. I can't add it to your thread but you can if you wish. As you can see there is no baffle. The vapors are simply allowed to collect on the element. As I had mentioned, there was
a dark spot on the element when I took it apart. I replaced the element and have not checked it since. What you see in the photo below the port is a cool air door that is built into the air cleaner."

So flow dispersal tubes/baffles were apparently deemed unnecessary by the Mopar engineers. This might just mean that the corporate bean counters said "Forget it. Minor issue. Too much money for nothing. Next item"

Off to Lowes to find a few things (or not)





Edited by 56D500boy 2023-02-14 3:08 PM




(DelsScampLA318AirCleaner_smaller.jpg)



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Attachments DelsScampLA318AirCleaner_smaller.jpg (148KB - 93 downloads)
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samstrader
Posted 2023-02-14 6:32 PM (#627611 - in reply to #627591)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner


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I really don't like the idea of letting oil vapours run around willy-nilly inside of the double-walled shell. Seems like that would be asking for trouble. (In my opinion).

I agree with your comment about routing the vapors into the double-walled shell.  It just doesn't seem right and you would have to worry about what would build up in there.

I sure like the pictures you have included.  It makes everything so easy to understand.  I think your system is going to work great.

 

 

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56D500boy
Posted 2023-02-14 6:47 PM (#627612 - in reply to #627580)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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Powerflite - 2023-02-13 5:31 PM
I would solder this flange to your pipe and screw or solder it to the bottom of your air cleaner. If you braze around the hole first, you should be able to solder it in place.
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Sioux-Chief-505-24-1-2-Copper-CTS-Tube-S...


Went looking for that flange today.

This:

https://www.supplyhouse.com/Sioux-Chief-505-24-1-2-Copper-CTS-Tube-S...

Nothing so far at Lowes, Home Depot or a local significant plumbing supply shop. I contacted Sioux Chief to see if there is anybody local to me that sells that flange.

All I found (and bought) was this (which I can use to steal the flange from, at 10 x the cost of just the flange)

That said, I think that I can modify this to make it work for my application.





Edited by 56D500boy 2023-02-14 8:30 PM
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wizard
Posted 2023-02-15 2:47 AM (#627619 - in reply to #627553)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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As alternative, the crankcase ventilation could be connected to the exhaust pipe, close to the manifold. This set-up requires a one-way valve to prevent backfire into the engine.

Modern cars sometimes use this, connected to the catalytic converter.

Right now, I'm working on a 1926 Rolls Royce 20 - they used exhaust manifold vacuum for the pressureless AutoVac fuel feed system.
The exhaust vacuum was of course used because it will increase with the rpm's (the intake manifold vacuum will decrease with rpm's.
Really impressive vacuum there. No T-pipe, just a threaded connection.
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Mopar1
Posted 2023-02-15 6:09 PM (#627633 - in reply to #627619)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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wizard - 2023-02-15 1:47 AM

As alternative, the crankcase ventilation could be connected to the exhaust pipe, close to the manifold. This set-up requires a one-way valve to prevent backfire into the engine.

.
The PCV valve is one way, but at high RPM the back pressure probably could keep it closed. A few decades ago I got the bright idea of tying the puke tube into the exhaust system, figured it would add some pull to the effect. Worked fine around town, but 45 minutes on the highway the back pressure backed up into the crankcase & I had oil blowing out the oil fill cap. .
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56D500boy
Posted 2023-02-15 8:21 PM (#627636 - in reply to #627612)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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Okay. Picked up the Hot Heads PCV kit(s) this AM as well as some bendable 1/2" I.D. soft copper and that Sioux Chief 505-24 Copper pipe flange that Nathan suggested. Yesterday I couldn't find any of those and bought some 3/8" I.D. fittings and bendable copper pipe and a 5/8" I.D. rubber gromment.

Today, I also picked up a Fram FV181 PCV valve (listed on Rock Auto for a 1971 Maverick 200 cu in 6) that did not have the 90 deg outlet that Hot Heads provided and some suitable rubber hose. I want to go straight up from the Valley cover to the bottom of the air cleaner.

SOME ASSEMBLY MAY BE REQUIRED (BATTERIES NOT INCLUDED)



Edited by 56D500boy 2023-02-15 9:13 PM




(ComponetsForAddingPCVvalveToConvertedOilBathAirCleaner_Options.jpg)



(HillmanRubberGrommetInPCVSystemEntranceHoleInBottomOfAirCleaner.jpg)



(PCVAlternatives_StraightUpNo90s.jpg)



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Attachments ComponetsForAddingPCVvalveToConvertedOilBathAirCleaner_Options.jpg (143KB - 89 downloads)
Attachments HillmanRubberGrommetInPCVSystemEntranceHoleInBottomOfAirCleaner.jpg (146KB - 96 downloads)
Attachments PCVAlternatives_StraightUpNo90s.jpg (148KB - 92 downloads)
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wizard
Posted 2023-02-16 10:09 AM (#627642 - in reply to #627633)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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Mopar1 - 2023-02-16 12:09 AM

wizard - 2023-02-15 1:47 AM

As alternative, the crankcase ventilation could be connected to the exhaust pipe, close to the manifold. This set-up requires a one-way valve to prevent backfire into the engine.

.
The PCV valve is one way, but at high RPM the back pressure probably could keep it closed. A few decades ago I got the bright idea of tying the puke tube into the exhaust system, figured it would add some pull to the effect. Worked fine around town, but 45 minutes on the highway the back pressure backed up into the crankcase & I had oil blowing out the oil fill cap. .


Interesting that you got back pressure - I've read that there are special connectors, but they should only work for tuned engines with headers.

The Rolls Royce 20 1926 has the vacuum line to the AutoVac connected to the #6 on the exhaust manifold - it goes directly to the AutoVac tank/feed/float system, hence full of gasoline fumes. I was puzzled by this, but I can confirm that there's only stronger vacuum as the rpm's climb upwards.

See enclosed photo (AutoVac is the black tank).


On my daily driver, Buick Estate Wagon 1990, the crankcase ventilation is more complex, the air injection pump has a devider valve the sometimes inject air inte to exhaust ports of the cylinderhead, sometimes to the air cleaner and sometimes to the crankcase. So, hypothetically there's always a helping pressure to withstand back fire, as well as the (big) one-way valves.





(IMG_3969-rez.jpg)



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Attachments IMG_3969-rez.jpg (141KB - 99 downloads)
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wizard
Posted 2023-02-16 12:21 PM (#627643 - in reply to #627553)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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Dave, sorry, don't want to derail your thread - only what I think could be helpful to some guys.
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Mopar1
Posted 2023-02-16 8:12 PM (#627657 - in reply to #627553)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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I'm thinking..doesn't the PCV valve need some pull on it? I have my hose running to the fitting on the Edelbrock carb...
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56D500boy
Posted 2023-03-08 8:57 PM (#628160 - in reply to #627636)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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Tried the "T" fitting and the vertical 1/2" ID copper pipe with the Hillmann rubber grommet and the copper to PEX fitting in the air cleaner today. Looks workable.

Then I decided that it was too nice here today (about 52 F), sunny and dry, to NOT drive the car (don't think that I drove it at all in February and not so far in March - after driving it 4 or 5 times in January - it's been a weird winter).

So that meant putting the air cleaner back on the carb. Which I did, taking photos of the potential PCV system as I went. I still need to work on the distribution pipe(s). I have some bendable 1/2" ID copper but it is beotch to actually bend.

The nipple is basically right above the road tube so the PCV valve to nipple hose (which I have) will be fairly short.

Not sure what the vacuum draw will be. (???)



Edited by 56D500boy 2023-03-08 9:39 PM




(56Dodge4bblAirCleaner_PCV_Inlet_FirstTrialOnTheEngine_NoAirCleanerElement.jpg)



(56Dodge4bblAirCleaner_PCV_Inlet_FirstTrialOnTheEngine_OneAirCleanerElement.jpg)



(56Dodge4bblAirCleaner_PCV_Inlet_FirstTrialOnTheEngine_TwoAirCleanerElements.jpg)



(56Dodge4bblAirCleaner_PCV_Inlet_FirstTrialOnTheEngine_TwoAirCleanerElements_OutletDetail_Side.jpg)



(56Dodge4bblAirCleaner_PCV_Inlet_FirstTrialOnTheEngine_TwoAirCleanerElements_OutletDetail_Top.jpg)



(56Dodge4bblAirCleaner_PCV_Inlet_FirstTrialOnTheEngine_InletNippleSittingDirectlyAboveRoadTubeLocation.jpg)



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Attachments 56Dodge4bblAirCleaner_PCV_Inlet_FirstTrialOnTheEngine_NoAirCleanerElement.jpg (148KB - 84 downloads)
Attachments 56Dodge4bblAirCleaner_PCV_Inlet_FirstTrialOnTheEngine_OneAirCleanerElement.jpg (149KB - 82 downloads)
Attachments 56Dodge4bblAirCleaner_PCV_Inlet_FirstTrialOnTheEngine_TwoAirCleanerElements.jpg (145KB - 89 downloads)
Attachments 56Dodge4bblAirCleaner_PCV_Inlet_FirstTrialOnTheEngine_TwoAirCleanerElements_OutletDetail_Side.jpg (149KB - 92 downloads)
Attachments 56Dodge4bblAirCleaner_PCV_Inlet_FirstTrialOnTheEngine_TwoAirCleanerElements_OutletDetail_Top.jpg (144KB - 85 downloads)
Attachments 56Dodge4bblAirCleaner_PCV_Inlet_FirstTrialOnTheEngine_InletNippleSittingDirectlyAboveRoadTubeLocation.jpg (147KB - 82 downloads)
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PolyJ
Posted 2023-03-09 2:39 AM (#628167 - in reply to #627553)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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Hey, Dave, I'm late to the party but wanted to give my input. I wouldn't run the outlet outside of the filter. Depending on how much blow-by the engine has, the oil vapors will saturate the filters and eventually collect dust and clog. I know Nathan mentioned this early in the thread. If you're okay replacing the filters for the sake of having it on the outside, by all means since it will take a while for a healthy engine to clog the filters. If the engine has decent blow-by, I think you'll regret plumbing the outlet on the outside.

If it were mine, I'd replace the T connection with a 90° elbow and install a length of copper pipe that would end around 1" inside the filter. I'd slice across the bottom rubber of the top filter and top rubber of the bottom filter with a razor to allow the filter to compress at that point. Cut the vertical pipe down so that the horizontal run going through the filter would be centered on the filter seam between the top and bottom filter. Solder all of those copper joints, slip in the bottom filter, throw on the top, an crank down the lid. The filter top/bottom have enough give to encase and seal around a 1/2" pipe to keep out dirt. If you were paranoid about the seal, you could run a bead of RTV silicon on the two slits in the filter before sandwiching the pipe--just make sure to give it 24-hour cure before firing the engine. This method would make filter changes take slightly longer in requiring you slice the new filters, but it will keep the filter free of oil.
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56D500boy
Posted 2023-03-09 10:31 AM (#628172 - in reply to #628167)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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Thanks for the detailed comments and suggestions Justin. Sounds like a plan....

But only *IF* there is an issue.

And one way to find that out would be to carry on with Plan A and run the car for awhile, periodically checking the condition of the air cleaner element(s) for build up of oily residue, i.e. signs of blow-by.

THEN if there is an issue, I can follow your suggestion, Plan B.



Edited by 56D500boy 2023-03-09 11:08 AM
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PolyJ
Posted 2023-03-09 12:33 PM (#628175 - in reply to #628172)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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56D500boy - 2023-03-09 8:31 AM . Thanks for the detailed comments and suggestions Justin. Sounds like a plan.... But only *IF* there is an issue. And one way to find that out would be to carry on with Plan A and run the car for awhile, periodically checking the condition of the air cleaner element(s) for build up of oily residue, i.e. signs of blow-by. THEN if there is an issue, I can follow your suggestion, Plan B. :)

Chances are if the engine doesn't have excessive blow-by, it'll take a long time to clog a doubled-up filter that large enough to starve the engine if you aren't putting many miles on the car each year. Either way, I'd prefer your filter-element conversion over the oil bath.

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56D500boy
Posted 2023-03-10 1:19 PM (#628180 - in reply to #628172)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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If I remove this bolt that holds the Road Draft Tube to something (the block??), and I have the bracket on the side of the bell housing loose enough, will I be able to lift the draft tube up
and out without hitting the underside of the hood?

(If so, I think I will install the Hot Heads grommet and the Fram PCV valve now instead of when I finally get to and remove the intake manifold and valley cover).

The top of the draft tube, looking straight down:



I assume the attachment is similar to View A in this early Chevy small block crankcase ventilation diagram:





Edited by 56D500boy 2023-03-10 1:23 PM




(ChevyExamplePCVConnections.jpg)



(RoadDraftTubeItem100InEngineDiagram.jpg)



(56DodgeSilverTransDipstickTubeAndBlackRoadDraftTubeAttachedToTransBellHousing.jpg)



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Attachments ChevyExamplePCVConnections.jpg (145KB - 89 downloads)
Attachments RoadDraftTubeItem100InEngineDiagram.jpg (146KB - 91 downloads)
Attachments 56DodgeSilverTransDipstickTubeAndBlackRoadDraftTubeAttachedToTransBellHousing.jpg (148KB - 83 downloads)
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Powerflite
Posted 2023-03-10 3:58 PM (#628181 - in reply to #627553)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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It screws to the bottom of the valley cover. Yes, you shouldn't have issues taking it out. I've removed many of them from various cars.
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Mopar1
Posted 2023-03-10 4:17 PM (#628182 - in reply to #628181)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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When I did that I put a short bolt into the hole in the bottom of the valley cover that the long bolt was in so the bolt hole is plugged.
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56D500boy
Posted 2023-03-10 5:54 PM (#628183 - in reply to #628181)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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Powerflite - 2023-03-10 12:58 PM
It screws to the bottom of the valley cover. Yes, you shouldn't have issues taking it out. I've removed many of them from various cars.


Mopar1 - 2023-03-10 1:17 PM
When I did that I put a short bolt into the hole in the bottom of the valley cover that the long bolt was in so the bolt hole is plugged.


Thanks Nathan and George:

I just went to eBay and searched for 315 325 Valley Pans and found one that is very rusty but it does show what you are telling me with regard to the attachment of the road draft tube to the valley pan.

I didn't know that the valley pan was two layers. Now I know. Learn something new everyday. Too late smart, too soon old.

This:



Edited by 56D500boy 2023-03-10 6:13 PM




(ValleyPanOnA57_325_DodgeEngine_1.jpg)



(ValleyPanOnA57_325_DodgeEngine_1_Detail.jpg)



(ValleyPanOnA57_325_DodgeEngine_3.jpg)



(ValleyPanOnA57_325_DodgeEngine_3_Detail.jpg)



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Attachments ValleyPanOnA57_325_DodgeEngine_1.jpg (148KB - 85 downloads)
Attachments ValleyPanOnA57_325_DodgeEngine_1_Detail.jpg (130KB - 100 downloads)
Attachments ValleyPanOnA57_325_DodgeEngine_3.jpg (146KB - 88 downloads)
Attachments ValleyPanOnA57_325_DodgeEngine_3_Detail.jpg (143KB - 84 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2023-03-10 11:06 PM (#628188 - in reply to #628183)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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Armed with my new knowledge (Thanks Nathan and George), I went out to the garage after coffee this afternoon and removed the long bolt through the top of the road draft tube (1/2" socket needed).

I tried to pull the draft tube up but that (obviously) failed because there is a bracket that is welded to the tube and the bracket is bolted to the bell housing.

So I jacked the car up (passenger side only). Installed a jack stand. Found my new Milwaukee 3/8" portable (M12) 90 degree electric ratchet and removed the bolt (9/16" socket) from the bell housing and
freed the draft tube bracket. Then the draft tube basically fell down and out through the bottom of the engine bay (I was under there already so no biggy).

I tried the new Hot Heads PVC grommet in the valley cover hole but it is going to need some persuasion to jump into that hole.

Tomorrow.



Edited by 56D500boy 2023-03-11 3:17 AM




(56DodgeRoadDraftTubeRemovedShowingWeldedBracketLongBoltAndFibreWasher.jpg)



(56DodgeV8ValleyCoverWithRoadDraftTubeRemoved.jpg)



(56DodgeV8ValleyCoverWithRoadDraftTubeRemoved_HotHeadsPVCValveAdapterLaidInPlace.jpg)



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Attachments 56DodgeRoadDraftTubeRemovedShowingWeldedBracketLongBoltAndFibreWasher.jpg (149KB - 87 downloads)
Attachments 56DodgeV8ValleyCoverWithRoadDraftTubeRemoved.jpg (148KB - 94 downloads)
Attachments 56DodgeV8ValleyCoverWithRoadDraftTubeRemoved_HotHeadsPVCValveAdapterLaidInPlace.jpg (145KB - 102 downloads)
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Mopar1
Posted 2023-03-11 10:10 AM (#628190 - in reply to #628188)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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I went to a parts place & bought one of the right diamiter.
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56D500boy
Posted 2023-03-11 8:19 PM (#628201 - in reply to #628188)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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56D500boy - 2023-03-10 8:06 PM
I tried the new Hot Heads PVC grommet in the valley cover hole but it is going to need some persuasion to jump into that hole.
Tomorrow.


Well "Tomorrow" was today. Installed the Hot Head grommet and the FRAM straight through (no 90 deg angle) PCV valve.

It was a bit tricky installing the grommet - required some lubrication (WD40) and more than a bit of persuasion but it went in. I started the grommet with its groove on the far side of the valley pan opening
and then slowly worked the rest of the grommet in with the aid of a long flatblade screwdriver and a piece of 2 x 2 wood to push down on the grommet.

For the PVC valve, I lubed both the grommet and the valve with WD40 and then used an 11/16" socket and extension over the upper end of the valve to push the valve into the grommet. It was tight but it went in.

Then I attached the Gates 3/8" PCV hose to the air cleaner nipple and tested the hose length on the car. It was too long so I cut off about 5" from the original foot. After testing it one more time, I think that I
still need to remove about 2" more hose. I will need a bit of a curve in the hose to make sure that the aircleaner and PCV valve connections remain tight. But what I have is too much.

Tomorrow (again)



Edited by 56D500boy 2023-03-11 8:23 PM




(HotHeadsPVCGrommetAndFRAMpcvValveInstalledIn56DodgeV8.jpg)



(AirCleanerConnectedToFRAMpcvValveViaNewHose.jpg)



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Attachments HotHeadsPVCGrommetAndFRAMpcvValveInstalledIn56DodgeV8.jpg (148KB - 100 downloads)
Attachments AirCleanerConnectedToFRAMpcvValveViaNewHose.jpg (149KB - 84 downloads)
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PolyJ
Posted 2023-03-13 10:02 PM (#628240 - in reply to #627553)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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For what it's worth, there's no need to plug the draft-tube threaded boss in the valley cover since it won't have an impact on the PCV, and there's a risk in having that bolt in the valley cover. The valley cover is double walled to help the oil drop out of the vapor after entering the inner chamber through the large center hole and before entering the draft tube. Having the additional very small hole of the threaded boss won't impact that process or cause issues for the PCV valve.

If you decide to plug that hole, which I don't recommend, the threads and bolt should be cleaned of all oil and the bolt installed with red Loctite since the bolt can loosen, drop into the lifter valley, and make its way onto the timing set and cause serious damage.
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56D500boy
Posted 2023-03-14 2:24 AM (#628241 - in reply to #628240)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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PolyJ - 2023-03-13 7:02 PM
For what it's worth, there's no need to plug the draft-tube threaded boss in the valley cover since it won't have an impact on the PCV,


Agree. After I saw that eBay valley cover with the huge hole in the bottom (see above and below), I decided that there was absolutely no need to plug that small hole. So I didn't.



Edited by 56D500boy 2023-03-14 12:47 PM
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Mopar1
Posted 2023-03-16 4:08 PM (#628296 - in reply to #628240)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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PolyJ - 2023-03-13 9:02 PM

For what it's worth, there's no need to plug the draft-tube threaded boss in the valley cover since it won't have an impact on the PCV, and there's a risk in having that bolt in the valley cover. The valley cover is double walled to help the oil drop out of the vapor after entering the inner chamber through the large center hole and before entering the draft tube. Having the additional very small hole of the threaded boss won't impact that process or cause issues for the PCV valve.

If you decide to plug that hole, which I don't recommend, the threads and bolt should be cleaned of all oil and the bolt installed with red Loctite since the bolt can loosen, drop into the lifter valley, and make its way onto the timing set and cause serious damage.
If you screw the bolt in in the inside it can't fall into the valley. Also if you shine a bright light into the hole in the bottom & look into the puke tube hole you won't see any light. So leaving the bolt hole open is changing paths.
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PolyJ
Posted 2023-03-17 2:47 AM (#628309 - in reply to #628296)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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Mopar1 - 2023-03-16 2:08 PM
PolyJ - 2023-03-13 9:02 PM For what it's worth, there's no need to plug the draft-tube threaded boss in the valley cover since it won't have an impact on the PCV, and there's a risk in having that bolt in the valley cover. The valley cover is double walled to help the oil drop out of the vapor after entering the inner chamber through the large center hole and before entering the draft tube. Having the additional very small hole of the threaded boss won't impact that process or cause issues for the PCV valve. If you decide to plug that hole, which I don't recommend, the threads and bolt should be cleaned of all oil and the bolt installed with red Loctite since the bolt can loosen, drop into the lifter valley, and make its way onto the timing set and cause serious damage.
If you screw the bolt in in the inside it can't fall into the valley. Also if you shine a bright light into the hole in the bottom & look into the puke tube hole you won't see any light. So leaving the bolt hole open is changing paths.


The reason you aren't seeing light from the draft-tube inlet when shining light into the large hole in the bottom of the cover is because there is a large oval baffle in the inner chamber that blocks flinging oil from directly entering the inner chamber. This baffle has one side of the oval wide open (no screen), and the opening is plenty large enough to allow the bolt through. There's no need to plug the draft-tube threaded boss since that hole has absolutely no impact on the PCV system.

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56D500boy
Posted 2023-03-17 11:37 PM (#628320 - in reply to #628241)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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So for now, I have "finished" the install of the PCV valve and the inlet to the air cleaner. I have left the inlet inside the air cleaner as just the "Tee". No arms. No perforations. I am starting to wonder whether I will have enough vacuum without taking up the suggestion to dump the outlet into the area above the carb, by-passing the filters.

So this is what I am looking at (minus the 2nd Pinto air cleaner):



From the outside, it looks like this (note the "new" coil mount bracket attachment):






(FinalInstallationConfiguration.jpg)



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Attachments FinalInstallationConfiguration.jpg (146KB - 96 downloads)
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samstrader
Posted 2023-03-18 2:46 AM (#628322 - in reply to #627553)
Subject: RE: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner


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Attached is a diagram of the crankcase ventilation system on a 1949 Cadillac. It is exactly the same as my/our 1955 Plymouth V8s. I have somewhere seen a diagram of a Plymouth engine and that diagram is clearer and easier to see but this one will help explain something. In the article I saw but can't find now, Plymouth called this something like a "flow through ventilation system" and it was designed to sweep out the crankcase gasses that build up above the engine oil and keep the oil cleaner longer.

So, these cars have a flow through ventilation system not just a vent off system. I think all cars, even with a factory PCV system have some flow through ventilation. The driving force to move the air and bypass gas in a newer car is the vacuum at the PCV valve.

When you are driving down the road, air and bypass gas flow through these engines in this direction. Air is forced into the oil filler cap; and then it flows down into the crankcase; and then up to the valley cover pan, which acts like an oil / air separator; and then out the rear engine vent tube or puke tube to the ground. What comes out of the puke tube is not just vent gas, it is a lot of air that is sweeping the crankcase vent gas out of the crankcase. This flow of air is pretty high when you are driving faster and that is why oil droplets are carried out the puke tube. There is not enough residence time in the valley cover to let the oil droplets fall out. When you are driving slow or just idling, not as much crankcase ventilation is happening so less oil is carried out the puke tube.

When you are driving down the road at 60 mph and the hood is closed, air pressure under the hood is increased because the air you are driving into is crammed into the engine compartment and this air then exits the engine compartment out the bottom of the engine compartment. So the air pressure under the hood is slightly higher on top of the engine, where the oil filler cap is and the air pressure is lower at the bottom of the engine where the puke tube empties. The puke tube bottom is also cut at an angle that will help lower the pressure at the puke tube outlet when you are driving faster. Fluid flow always flows from higher pressure to lower pressure. In this case, air is the fluid.

I think Dave's design will work because he will still have air pushing into the crankcase from the oil fill breather and the pressure at the pipe where his PCV Tee is located will be lower because at this point in the system, air is getting sucked into the carburetor and that will create a lower pressure. Dave's design will have flow from higher pressure to lower pressure so it will work. At least it will work is the pressure at the PCV valve exit is lower because of air getting sucked into the carburetor and I think it will be lower. If there is too much oil carrying over into the air filters because the air flow is so high that the valley cover separator can't remove all of the oil, you can tape off part of the opening on the oil filler cap to reduce the air flow that is being forced into and through the crankcase.

The picture quality of the attached is as good as I could find. Sorry it is not better.



Edited by samstrader 2023-03-18 3:06 AM




(Crankcase Ventilation.jpg)



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Attachments Crankcase Ventilation.jpg (32KB - 89 downloads)
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PolyJ
Posted 2023-03-18 2:55 PM (#628343 - in reply to #627553)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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Dave, if your purpose is to have a PCV system, I don't think the current design will get you there, unfortunately. It will function pretty much like a draft system, only recycling the vapors once through the combustion process versus venting them straight to atmosphere.

Essentially, the PCV valve in your current system is relying on a very decreased ported vacuum signal, whereas an ideal PCV system relies on a strong manifold vacuum signal. At idle, the vacuum to your valve won't function, and any expanding vapors from blow-by and heat will make their way into the filter canister since it's the path of least resistance similar to the factory draft system at idle. Once you begin opening the carburetor throttle plates, the vacuum at the venturis will pick up, but I suspect the vacuum signal will be in the fractions of an inHg by the time it reaches the PCV outlet since your filter surface area is huge. Even at sustained wide-open throttle, I doubt the valve will get even 1 inHg of vacuum if your engine in producing say 15 inHg since the vacuum will be dissipated across the filter surface area. The vacuum to the valve would likely be higher if the outlet were inside the filter element and very close to the air horn, but I doubt it would be anywhere near manifold vacuum.

For this type of retrofit, a spacer between the carburetor and manifold with a vacuum port or a vacuum port tapped into the intake plenum would be my choice. I'm not sure if you can obtain that type of spacer for your carburetor and manifold bolt pattern, but you could make one out of a block of aluminum or phenolic plastic or modify an available one with epoxy. People make spacers out of plywood too for heat insulation, although I wouldn't for a PCV port. Alternatively, you can drill and tap a hole into the intake plenum to accept a nipple. In either of these options, you'd simply run the hose from the PCV valve to the spacer or manifold nipple to access manifold vacuum downstream the carburetor.
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56D500boy
Posted 2023-03-19 2:49 AM (#628351 - in reply to #628343)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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Justin: Thanks for your comments. My original intent in this project was to eliminate the open discharge of engine blow-by via the road draft tube. I think that I assumed that there would be enough vacuum in the air cleaner to pull oil vapours from the valley pan area, through a PCV valve and into the air cleaner air flow to be burned in the engine rather than discharged unburned to the atmosphere.

After "completing" the installation of the PCV valve and piping "flow" into the air cleaner, I have become convinced that there is probably NOT enough vacuum to pull the vapours through the PCV valve, the air cleaner element and then on into the engine.

As a result, I am beginning to agree that there will be more vacuum on the downstream side of the aircleaner elements and, as such, it might be better to pipe the vapours into the engine via a standwich plate/spacer.

On that basis, I will be checking out the Trans-Dapt 2584 Phenolic Carburetor spacer to see whether that side port then discharges into at least the primary venturis of my Carter WCFB.

This:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/trd-2584



Edited by 56D500boy 2023-03-19 1:25 PM
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dels56
Posted 2023-03-19 11:18 AM (#628356 - in reply to #627553)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner


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I’m thinking, if your carb is all set up to make sure your air/fuel mix is just right to give you the performance and economy expected from the engine, what happens to that mix when you allow air to enter via that adapter plate? Does it lean out the mix?
Del
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Powerflite
Posted 2023-03-19 12:36 PM (#628360 - in reply to #627553)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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What you have created is the typical early '60's solution to a PCV. It was mandated in Los Angeles in the early '60's to route the excess crankcase pressure to the air cleaner to reduce air pollution (the oil vapors that were being dumped). It does help when your engine is worn and you have blowby. In that case, you don't need vacuum to extract it because there's a lot of pressure built up in there already. That pressure includes (in order of amount):

1. Excess exhaust gas (i.e no Oxygen)
2. Oil vapors & unburnt fuel
3. Some air (i.e. w/Oxygen)

The exhaust gases are neutral and don't contribute to fuel or oxygen. The oil vapors enriches your mixture and the air leans it. In practice, it doesn't do much to the mixture in terms of leaning it out or enriching it. The valve limits the amount of flow that can take place so that you don't end up with 16psi vacuum inside your engine and pulling gobs of air in from the oil breathers. Connecting the PCV to an actual vacuum source will give you the added benefit of helping your gaskets survive, and keeping excess fuel & exhaust gas from contaminating your oil. But routing it to your air cleaner does solve the foul smell of these fumes from entering your car or into the atmosphere when you have a lot of blowby from a worn engine.
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56D500boy
Posted 2023-03-19 3:35 PM (#628363 - in reply to #628356)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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Del: I asked myself the same question. I was coming down with "leaning out" the mixture but Nathan's comments seem like that might be insignificant.

So far, I have checked to see if there was a Trans-Dapt 2584 in town and the answer it a big NO.

So, in the short run, I will continue to run what I have created. I drove the car yesterday (lovely warm dry early spring day) and there didn't seem to be any negatives.

The "funny" thing is I don't know IF my engine had any blow-by coming out the draft tube. That said, the inside of the draft tube that I removed has oily residue, so I assume that there has been
blow-by at some point in the past (and possibly now).

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samstrader
Posted 2023-03-19 4:17 PM (#628364 - in reply to #627553)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner


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I agree with Nathan. I remember our 1960's cars and they were set up the way you have made yours except the PCV line entered the horn of the air filter and probably had a little better suction. It was always hard to get the air cleaner off because of the PCV hose. In the early days, crankcase gas was routed to the air cleaner while you still had a vented oil fill cover. This is how the positive air flow was made to flow through the engine and help remove blowby gasses that would contaminate the oil. I'm not sure when it happened but the next step was to seal tight the oil fill hole and I think only have a hose sucking on the crankcase from the PCV. I don't remember a small hose that let air suck into the engine but there may have been a small hose. In the later years, this PCV hose was connected to a higher vacuum source.

I think what you wanted to do was to stop smelling the crankcase gas that came out of the puke tube and your solution has done that. And it has reduced pollution. If you have more blowby than your new PCV valve can handle, blowby gas will come out of the oil fill tube cap oil breather. You will know if this is happening because you will see oil dripping out of your oil fill tube breather. If no oil or vapors are coming out of the oil fill breather and you don't smell crankcase gas anymore, then you have got it working good. You will also know if you are drawing gas from the crankcase to the air filter through your PCV hose by seeing your air filters get dirty near the PCV pipe outlet. And you don't have to worry about over pressuring your crankcase because the oil tube fill pipe is vented.

I just don't see any negatives to the system you have built.
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PolyJ
Posted 2023-03-19 11:25 PM (#628371 - in reply to #628351)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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56D500boy - 2023-03-19 12:49 AM . Justin: Thanks for your comments. My original intent in this project was to eliminate the open discharge of engine blow-by via the road draft tube. I think that I assumed that there would be enough vacuum in the air cleaner to pull oil vapours from the valley pan area, through a PCV valve and into the air cleaner air flow to be burned in the engine rather than discharged unburned to the atmosphere. After "completing" the installation of the PCV valve and piping "flow" into the air cleaner, I have become convinced that there is probably NOT enough vacuum to pull the vapours through the PCV valve, the air cleaner element and then on into the engine.

Happy to give my input. I understand what I'm about to say gets deep into the weeds, but I know you and I both appreciate going down into those details, and you clearly are willing to go through the effort to improve your system. If your sole intent is to recycle the engine vapors once through combustion and out the exhaust pipes to remove fumes inside the cabin, your setup won't get you there. The oil-filler cap/breather will still vent vapors into the engine compartment and likely at a higher volume without the draft tube since the filler tube and breather have less resistance than your air cleaner modification with 3/8" hose. The primitive 1960's PCV system that Nathan describes--which you have essentially recreated with a smaller diameter hose--relies not on vacuum drawing out the crankcase vapors but on the vapors building up enough positive pressure in the crankcase to push into the air cleaner via a larger hose (usually 5/8" versus your 3/8"). The system does a poor job, just like the draft-tube system, of keeping the crankcase clear of contaminated vapors, positive pressure, and circulated with fresh air to cut down on deposits/sludge and to relieve gaskets/seals of pressure stresses. Your system will have the same internal physics as a draft-tube system with the benefit of venting one of the two breathers into the combustion process. If you choose to run this system as-built, I highly recommend you replace the PCV valve with a nipple with no check ball or modify the PCV valve to remove the check ball. Removing the check ball will increase the hose inside area and make it more likely the vapors will travel into the air cleaner versus venting through the oil-filler cap/breather. With the check ball in place further shrinking an already small hose diameter compared to the filler tube, the vapors will likely migrate through the filler breather versus your modification. Your current system does not require a PCV valve since that line has no vacuum applied that requires regulating.

To improve the primitive system, manufacturers started using a system that ran a hose from one breather into the air cleaner and added a vacuum hose from a PCV valve in the valve cover to manifold vacuum downstream the carburetor throttle plates. In this system, the purpose of the breather-to-air-cleaner line is reversed from yours: that line doesn't vent vapors into the air cleaner but draws filtered fresh air into the engine to replace the air that the manifold vacuum sucks out through the PCV valve in the valve cover. The PCV valve is required to regulate the vacuum signal. This system keeps contaminated crankcase vapors sucking into combustion, replaced with filtered fresh air, and the gaskets/seals free of pressure in a constant cycle. For a V8 system, the breather would be on one valve cover and the PCV valve on the opposite valve cover to promote a circular, thorough flow of air through the crankcase.

When I first bought our 1956 Dodge coupe, the poly 270 with 95K miles had a ton of blow-by that would come out of both the filler cap/breather and the draft tube. To cut down on the cabin vapors until I pulled the engine, I ditched the oil bath and modified the base of a new aftermarket paper filter air cleaner to fit on the 2-barrel carb. That base had an integrated 5/8" nipple. After measuring the filler tube and digging through parts catalogs, I found the Gates 31070 with an integrated 5/8" nipple was a perfect fit into the filler tube (https://www.jegs.com/i/Gates/465/31070/10002/-1). I ran a hose from that breather to the air cleaner nipple, essentially doing what you've done in venting vapors into the air cleaner. With this system, I saw about the same blow-by out of the draft tube but all the filler breather vapors captured into combustion.

If you want a vacuum-assisted PCV system, as I've already mentioned, you could either make a carb spacer or drill a hole in the right side of the intake plenum, tap for FPT, and screw in a nipple. You'd connect your PCV valve in the valley cover to this nipple for manifold vacuum. You'd abandon the pipe you've installed in the air cleaner. In this system, the manifold vacuum would suck the vapors through the PCV valve, and fresh air would draw into the crankcase via the oil-filler breather. It wouldn't promote ideal circulation since the active flow won't go through the valve cover, down through the crank case, and up through the opposite valve cover, but it would create a circular flow at least in the top of the crankcase. If you wanted to filter the air entering the crankcase more so than the breather filter element allows, you could use a breather like the Gates 31070 and run a hose to the nipple of your air cleaner modification.

I sum, if your ultimate desire is to remove all vapors from the cabin, you need a vacuum-assisted PCV system. If your ultimate desire is to also keep the engine as free of sludge and pressure build-up as possible, you need a vacuum-assisted PCV system. If your desire is to decrease the vapors in the cabin but not remove them completely, your current modification (with the PCV check ball removed) will move in that direction more so than the draft tube, but you'll still get vapors venting from the filler breather.



Edited by PolyJ 2023-03-19 11:29 PM
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samstrader
Posted 2023-03-20 2:59 PM (#628384 - in reply to #627553)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner


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I remember the two PCV hoses Justin mentions in our 1963 Pontiac Sky Chief. And only one had a PCV valve.
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56D500boy
Posted 2023-03-20 4:21 PM (#628387 - in reply to #628371)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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Justin: Thanks for the detailed reply and comments:

This paragraph in particular:

"If you want a vacuum-assisted PCV system, as I've already mentioned, you could either make a carb spacer or drill a hole in the right side of the intake plenum, tap for FPT, and screw in a nipple. You'd connect your PCV valve in the valley cover to this nipple for manifold vacuum. You'd abandon the pipe you've installed in the air cleaner. In this system, the manifold vacuum would suck the vapors through the PCV valve, and fresh air would draw into the crankcase via the oil-filler breather. It wouldn't promote ideal circulation since the active flow won't go through the valve cover, down through the crank case, and up through the opposite valve cover, but it would create a circular flow at least in the top of the crankcase."

On that basis, I just ordered a Trans-Dapt 2584 Phenolic Spacer with PCV inlet. Went with Summit Racing. There were none in town and ordering through one of the local car parts stores was going to be twice the amount that Summit charged me. Plus much much faster delivery. No brainer.

Hopefully it will work. Note: Other than the holes in the air cleaner, I only have about $10 "invested" in the copper pipe, etc. so no biggy.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/trd-2584

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Powerflite
Posted 2023-03-20 5:06 PM (#628391 - in reply to #627553)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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You should cancel your order. I don't think that will work because the early WCFB has a much smaller square bolt pattern than the later AFBs. I think the later intake manifolds do have the larger bolt pattern on them, but the '56 probably wouldn't.

Edited by Powerflite 2023-03-20 5:24 PM




(WCFB Bottom.jpg)



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Attachments WCFB Bottom.jpg (233KB - 83 downloads)
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Powerflite
Posted 2023-03-20 5:28 PM (#628393 - in reply to #627553)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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You may be able to modify that adapter to use with the WCFB, or you may just ask a machine shop to make you a custom plate from scratch.

Most 4bbl carbs have plugged ports on the back of them that could be drilled and connected to a PCV setup. The WCFB does have these ports too, but unfortunately, the ones that go below the throttle plates are quite small. But maybe if you drill them out a little and epoxy a thin wall tube into both ports with a "Y" junction, it might have enough flow? But looking at it, these ports exit into the venturi with really small holes. I don't think you could drill them large enough to make it work, so scratch that idea - you would need to use a separate plate below it. I believe the larger ports above them route above the throttle plates, and likely wouldn't work for this purpose either.

Edited by Powerflite 2023-03-20 6:40 PM




(WCFB Rear Ports.jpg)



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Attachments WCFB Rear Ports.jpg (188KB - 93 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2023-03-20 7:07 PM (#628394 - in reply to #628393)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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Powerflite - 2023-03-20 2:28 PM
You may be able to modify that adapter to use with the WCFB, or you may just ask a machine shop to make you a custom plate from scratch.


I fully anticipate that I will have to modify the Trans-Dapt 2584 spacer. Having a machine shop make a custom plate would likely cost 10 x's the $30.99 that Summit has charged me.

Hopefully modification will not be too involved. I am hoping that the primary barrels will line up reasonably well. If the secondaries don't, I can imagine hogging the spacer out to a single large opening for the secondaries.

I can't say more until I get the spacer and try it on my spare WCFB 2443S.

In the meantime, in the short run, I will run the existing "PCV" system, however inefficient/ineffective it is.



Edited by 56D500boy 2023-03-20 8:35 PM
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PolyJ
Posted 2023-03-20 10:33 PM (#628402 - in reply to #627553)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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Dave, I look forward to seeing what you come up with. I'm fairly certain the WCFB bolt spacing from side to side is 4.25" on center, whereas the spacer's is 5.125". I just measured that off a combo base-plate gasket for the WCFB and AFB/Holley bolt patterns.

My concern with the adapter you purchased (I have one of them on my 1940 Ford coupe) is that I doubt there is enough material on the ears to move the bolt holes in enough.
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Powerflite
Posted 2023-03-20 11:16 PM (#628403 - in reply to #627553)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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It's not the ears that you have to worry about. The holes are very far from them. This adapter goes from the WCFB to an AFB and shows you where the holes are relative to one another.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/trd-2064




(WCFB Adapter.jpg)



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Attachments WCFB Adapter.jpg (46KB - 90 downloads)
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56D500boy
Posted 2023-03-20 11:40 PM (#628404 - in reply to #628403)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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Powerflite - 2023-03-20 8:16 PM
It's not the ears that you have to worry about. The holes are very far from them. This adapter goes from the WCFB to an AFB and shows you where the holes are relative to one another.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/trd-2064


Slightly different view (Basically showing me where I will have to hog the Phenolic PCV spacer plate out to match the WCFB base.



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PolyJ
Posted 2023-03-21 5:11 AM (#628405 - in reply to #628403)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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Powerflite - 2023-03-20 9:16 PM It's not the ears that you have to worry about. The holes are very far from them. This adapter goes from the WCFB to an AFB and shows you where the holes are relative to one another. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/trd-2064

We might be talking about a different spacer. I'm referring to a spacer that has the correct front to back bolt pattern for the WCFB but requires the holes be relocated inward like the image I quickly edited. There isn't enough material to move the holes inward. If the spacer is made for a Holley/AFB baseplate, which I now see it likely is, then there won't be any issue since the WCFB holes would be in the main body of the spacer and not the ears as you point out.

Dave, if the spacer is a Holley/AFB, you could simply scribe the WCFB holes onto the spacer, center-punch and drill them, and cut off the ears to clean up the perimeter. I'm not sure if you've messed with phenolic plastic before, but use an awl or similar sharp point to push a center-punch, but don't use a hammer to make the punch since the plastic can crack. When drilling, I'd use three steps starting with a 3/16" bit up to the finished bore. While it sounds odd, use cutting oil with the drill speed at a moderate rpm to make the cuts, and go slow letting the bit do the cutting without digging in quickly. This method will keep the plastic from melting, the bit from screwing in, and will result in cleaner bores. When you're done drilling the holes, use a countersink bit held between your fingers to lightly chamfer both sides of the bore. Presto! Custom PCV WCFB spacer.




Edited by PolyJ 2023-03-21 5:39 AM




(spacer edited.jpg)



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Mopar1
Posted 2023-03-21 10:22 AM (#628407 - in reply to #628405)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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The WCFB holes are closer together, but the same size as the later carbs, at least on the Chr. On my Chr I installed the longer carb bolts & used the spacer that 2 fit & 2 don't. It works. On the Chr intakes there's enough metal that a machine shop can bore through the squeeze plate & intake to make it a straight shot, don't know about the 270. Didn't bother doing that on my 331.
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56D500boy
Posted 2023-03-21 12:11 PM (#628410 - in reply to #628407)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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Summit says that the 2584 will be delivered to my mail box in Point Roberts tomorrow before 9 PM. At best, I won't be able to pick it up until Thursday so I am not going to worry too much about fitting/not fitting until then.

In the meantime, before I went to sleep last night, my brain decided to "design" a DIY spacer plate out of two layers of 9 ply 3/8" Baltic birch plywood (that I have on hand) with copper and brass hard piping from the back of the carb
(and a hose connected to the PCV valve) to the two primary throats at the front of the carb.

This AM I used an actual WCFB base gasket as the template for the sketch below. Lots of details to work out including the "Wye" pipe and ways to make the external hard piping smaller diameter.

This:



Edited by 56D500boy 2023-03-21 2:33 PM




(ConceptForDIYWCFBSpacerPlateWithPCVConnection_1_small.jpg)



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Attachments ConceptForDIYWCFBSpacerPlateWithPCVConnection_1_small.jpg (140KB - 78 downloads)
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Powerflite
Posted 2023-03-21 4:17 PM (#628419 - in reply to #627553)
Subject: Re: Determining the best location for a PCV valve nipple on a converted oil bath aircleaner



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Now you're thinking. You could even make this out of the phenolic instead without too much trouble. For the "Y", I would just drill the holes at an angle, starting from the same position. Then, drill the straight hole a little bigger diameter to fit your tube into it with a tight fit & some epoxy. It would look like the model I made in Solidworks and provide enough crossover so you could fit the pipe in without closing off either leg of the Y junction. You will probably want to cut the end of the pipe before you insert it so that it blocks even less of the Y ports.

Use a coarse fluted carbide cutter on the end of your die grinder, used for cutting wood, and hold the part in a vice. Or maybe do it with a template for a router, if you have the equipment & tools to do that. This way, this could be done by hand quite easily.

Edited by Powerflite 2023-03-21 4:38 PM




(Spacer Y.jpg)



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Attachments Spacer Y.jpg (97KB - 82 downloads)
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