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1961 starter interchange
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Apollo 61
Posted 2023-06-27 1:37 AM (#630435)
Subject: 1961 starter interchange



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On a 61 cast iron trans.
Is there a difference between poly 318 and 413 automatic starters?
Is there a difference between manual and automatic starters.
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Powerflite
Posted 2023-06-27 3:43 AM (#630437 - in reply to #630435)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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There's no rhyme or reason to the mopar starter interchange. You just have to look it up.
No, they don't directly interchange. They don't specify a separate manual trans option in '61 so maybe there isn't a difference between them, but the big block starter is what was used in '62-'64 on the manual transmissions.
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saaca
Posted 2024-02-20 6:39 PM (#633822 - in reply to #630435)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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I know this is an old thread but I'm stumped...I have a 61 newport with a 361....did the right thing and had my starter rebuilt and before I could reinstall it some dirtwad stole it.....probably scrapped it for 2 bucks.....I have the pricy ami starter and half dozen others that folks say should have worked...the ami fits but doesn't come out far enough to engage .....HELP
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1960fury
Posted 2024-02-22 9:39 PM (#633863 - in reply to #630435)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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Got a Pic of that AMI starter? How far does the gear come out when it spins?
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1960fury
Posted 2024-02-22 9:41 PM (#633864 - in reply to #630435)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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No, Poly starters do not fit big blocks.
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NicksGarage
Posted 2024-02-23 7:39 PM (#633868 - in reply to #633822)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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saaca - 2024-02-20 3:39 PM

I know this is an old thread but I'm stumped...I have a 61 newport with a 361....did the right thing and had my starter rebuilt and before I could reinstall it some dirtwad stole it.....probably scrapped it for 2 bucks.....I have the pricy ami starter and half dozen others that folks say should have worked...the ami fits but doesn't come out far enough to engage .....HELP


I've put this mini starter in two of my 1960 Chryslers with 413s.

https://www.qualitypowerauto.com/catalog.php?item=600

Works great but does need a slight grinding on the housing to fit.
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1960fury
Posted 2024-02-23 8:19 PM (#633869 - in reply to #633868)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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NicksGarage - 2024-02-23 7:39 PM

I've put this mini starter in two of my 1960 Chryslers with 413s.

https://www.qualitypowerauto.com/catalog.php?item=600



Which one? From the listing the last 3 could fit. One says 56-58 non Hemi, which is a 58 350/361 Big Block, Poly and 6 too. Second says 59-61 non Hemi, which would be Big Block, Poly, straight and /6 too. 3rd says 59-61 V8 only, which is Big Block and Poly.....

Since the 58-61 BB uses a different bolt patten than Poly or /6, the listing MUST be incorrect.

Edited by 1960fury 2024-02-23 8:21 PM
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Powerflite
Posted 2024-02-23 8:43 PM (#633871 - in reply to #630435)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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All those starters come from IMI. Just contact them directly and get the starter you need. They do know which one you need, but their catalog is lousy. And information around mopar starter interchange is very confusing, so it's no wonder that middle men like Quality Power have it jumbled up. And Nick is right, the IMI adapter requires some grinding on it's edge to get it to fit well to the earlier blocks. If his isn't engaging, I would expect that he didn't grind the edge well, causing it to sit further back.

Edited by Powerflite 2024-02-23 8:47 PM
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hemidenis
Posted 2024-02-23 9:20 PM (#633874 - in reply to #630435)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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$280 for a starter doesn't seems like a lot, but the fact that you still have to grind it to fit it is outrageous. I remember changing the stock starter for another stock and was not an easy task, the exhaust pipe was right in the way... Thinking in adapting something in such a confine space does not taste right.
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1960fury
Posted 2024-02-23 9:49 PM (#633875 - in reply to #633874)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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hemidenis - 2024-02-23 9:20 PM

$280 for a starter doesn't seems like a lot, but the fact that you still have to grind it to fit it is outrageous. I remember changing the stock starter for another stock and was not an easy task, the exhaust pipe was right in the way... Thinking in adapting something in such a confine space does not taste right.


Haven't tried it yet, but since I'm warned now, I will check fitment with the base plate (flange) only. Takes about 1 minute to unscrew it from the starter assy.

Shouldn't be a big deal to make it fit. I can live with such mods, if the part lasts. Heck, I'm still in disbelieve, that I can buy a brand new wear part for a 65(!) year old engine. So I won't complain!

Already checked gear reach. It is WAY shorter than the OE starter, that doesn't mean it does not engage. I will certainly check for full engagement before I bolt it to my engine.
There is a spacer, that can be removed, that extends the reach almost 1/8" this will also make the whole assy more rigid. If that isn't enough, you could pull out the gear a bit more outward from the shaft, it's pressed on. This will certainly bring it to OE reach. So I don't worry about that. I only worry about dependability. The unit looks flimsy and certainly won't last another 65 years of daily use.

Not sure if the one I bought is the same as the IMI here, but it looks to be. Base plate is a bit differnet though, has more holes (360° mounting possibilities) in it.

Edited by 1960fury 2024-02-23 10:10 PM
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1960fury
Posted 2024-02-23 9:54 PM (#633876 - in reply to #633875)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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Ok, maybe it's different same layout at least....

Edited by 1960fury 2024-02-23 10:04 PM




(wosp.jpg)



(IMI-122-005.jpg)



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Attachments wosp.jpg (110KB - 94 downloads)
Attachments IMI-122-005.jpg (32KB - 86 downloads)
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hemidenis
Posted 2024-02-23 10:14 PM (#633877 - in reply to #630435)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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Look good Sid, one of these starter will last longer than the original if was made in Japan. I saw the Nippon Denso last 300k+ miles which was unimaginable for any mechanical part of our cars.

A few days ago I made a concrete pad to install a two post car lift, so I imagine these kind of tasks are going to be easier. Changing a starter laying on the floor it is not easy...I done it...
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hemidenis
Posted 2024-02-23 10:37 PM (#633880 - in reply to #630435)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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I imagine this Power master listed for SB BB and hemi wont fit...



(Untitled5.jpg)



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NicksGarage
Posted 2024-02-26 5:47 PM (#633905 - in reply to #633869)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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1960fury - 2024-02-23 5:19 PM

NicksGarage - 2024-02-23 7:39 PM

I've put this mini starter in two of my 1960 Chryslers with 413s.

https://www.qualitypowerauto.com/catalog.php?item=600



Which one? From the listing the last 3 could fit. One says 56-58 non Hemi, which is a 58 350/361 Big Block, Poly and 6 too. Second says 59-61 non Hemi, which would be Big Block, Poly, straight and /6 too. 3rd says 59-61 V8 only, which is Big Block and Poly.....

Since the 58-61 BB uses a different bolt patten than Poly or /6, the listing MUST be incorrect.


I used this one - Chrysler 1959-1961 non Hemi (126-001) $280.00

Here are some pictures - https://photos.app.goo.gl/Bb9NDYboiqD9ivV46
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NicksGarage
Posted 2024-02-26 5:53 PM (#633906 - in reply to #630435)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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This is the area on the mini starter adapter that I had to grind to fit both of my 1960 413s. It didn't take much. You also need a bolt for the top as the original starter has a stud sticking out. And the battery cables need to be about 6" longer since the connections are at the bottom of the starter. For the positive, I used two cables joined at the starter relay and extended the control wire.


Edited by NicksGarage 2024-02-26 5:57 PM




(20220409_170555.jpg)



(20210918_111503.jpg)



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Attachments 20220409_170555.jpg (200KB - 89 downloads)
Attachments 20210918_111503.jpg (168KB - 93 downloads)
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hemidenis
Posted 2024-02-29 8:25 PM (#633975 - in reply to #630435)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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Excellent info nick, very professional work.
I can see that the grinding was related to an imperfection in the Mopar casting, out of round, and not in the starter itself. I will definitely get one this summer.

If you have the time, I think we will all like to hear the engine turn with it. I'm pretty sure most of the FL cars having problem with the "firing" issues, could be improved with a faster spinning starter.

Edited by hemidenis 2024-02-29 8:30 PM
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1960fury
Posted 2024-02-29 9:07 PM (#633976 - in reply to #633975)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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hemidenis - 2024-02-29 8:25 PM


I can see that the grinding was related to an imperfection in the Mopar casting, out of round, and not in the starter itself. I will definitely get one this summer.

If you have the time, I think we will all like to hear the engine turn with it. I'm pretty sure most of the FL cars having problem with the "firing" issues, could be improved with a faster spinning starter.


That is not an imperfection, it is a cast surface, not a machined mating surface. The OE Starter is not suposed to touch the engine block there and clears it by a mile. After 36 years with these cars daily, I'm not aware of any FL "firing issues".

Edited by 1960fury 2024-02-29 11:03 PM
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1960fury
Posted 2024-02-29 9:25 PM (#633977 - in reply to #633877)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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hemidenis - 2024-02-23 10:14 PM

Look good Sid, one of these starter will last longer than the original if was made in Japan. I saw the Nippon Denso last 300k+ miles which was unimaginable for any mechanical part of our cars.



Was this meant to be a joke? No Nippon parts will ever outlast these cars. were are all the Nippon toys, Civics, CRX's, etc hat challenged me 30 years ago? They not only got smoked, they died the mechanical death many years ago.

"Unimaginable".... Almost everything is still OE in my 370K miles formerly abused car, including front wheel bearings, inner tie od ends and B&T U joint. The rear axle is almost untouched.

Just (3 hours ago) had my 370K miles/ 64+ year old Fury up to 135mph in no time with lots of air under the pedal. I have little doubt, it revs in direkt to redline, that means 170 mph. Impossible with any Jap car 60 years old, or with a new one 60 years from now.
I drive my cars almost daily since the 80s and there are no others cars that are more reliable. Mechanically they are engineered for the eternity.

As I said before, I always crank my engine during cold starts to get oil pressure first, that really stresses the starter and thats why it gave up after about 150K miles. It didn't even give up, it is just slow sometimes, never left me stranded.
That flimsy Nippon starter won't last as long, I guess and as I know Nippon parts, it probably breaks without a warning, leaving me stranded. It might have a roller bearing, but no outer support for the shaft.

Edited by 1960fury 2024-02-29 11:08 PM
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1960fury
Posted 2024-02-29 9:28 PM (#633978 - in reply to #633906)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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NicksGarage - 2024-02-26 5:53 PM

This is the area on the mini starter adapter that I had to grind to fit both of my 1960 413s. It didn't take much. You also need a bolt for the top as the original starter has a stud sticking out. And the battery cables need to be about 6" longer since the connections are at the bottom of the starter. For the positive, I used two cables joined at the starter relay and extended the control wire.


Thanks Nick! That picture will help when I install mine. Looks like you have the same starter type, only the base plate has 18 holes, mine has 20.
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Apollo 61
Posted 2024-03-01 1:09 AM (#633982 - in reply to #633864)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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1960fury - 2024-02-22 9:41 PM

No, Poly starters do not fit big blocks.


Can you tell me if it’s just a nose cone swap difference?


Edited by Apollo 61 2024-03-01 1:53 AM
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Zorc
Posted 2024-03-01 2:57 PM (#633990 - in reply to #630435)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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Last year i tried to buy a new starter for my 61 NY. I got a "powermaster" , this fits on a 62 - so i though its also working on my 61. No - the Autotransmission is different . The pinion only goes out about 40 mm , for our 61 the pinion must go out about 50 mm ( 2 inch ) to come against the ring gear . in Germany its not possible to find the correct starter and also not at rockauto. At the end i repaired the old starter, works fine
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1960fury
Posted 2024-03-01 7:39 PM (#633996 - in reply to #633982)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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Apollo 61 - 2024-03-01 1:09 AM

1960fury - 2024-02-22 9:41 PM

No, Poly starters do not fit big blocks.


Can you tell me if it’s just a nose cone swap difference?


I don't know, but I don't think so
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NicksGarage
Posted 2024-03-02 11:12 AM (#634005 - in reply to #633990)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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Zorc - 2024-03-01 11:57 AM

Last year i tried to buy a new starter for my 61 NY. I got a "powermaster" , this fits on a 62 - so i though its also working on my 61. No - the Autotransmission is different . The pinion only goes out about 40 mm , for our 61 the pinion must go out about 50 mm ( 2 inch ) to come against the ring gear . in Germany its not possible to find the correct starter and also not at rockauto. At the end i repaired the old starter, works fine


The gear pitch is also wrong.
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hemidenis
Posted 2024-04-27 6:30 PM (#634926 - in reply to #630435)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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the one i found from IMI catalog apparently would fit 318 361 383 model IMI-138-001, i sent an email to them, since they didn't answer the phone. the one Sid has is the LMS850, a bit cheaper however the fitting list is all over the place, but it may be an universal fit

Dodge Challenger / Charger / Coronet / Dart / D100 / CB300 5.9L V8 '71-'76,
Dodge '63 - '76 (pinion depth varies),
Chrysler 413 V8 '59 - '65 (pinion depth varies),
Chrysler Imperial / Saratoga 6.5L,
6.7L & 6.8L V8 '59-'60,
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hemidenis
Posted 2024-05-03 6:42 PM (#635010 - in reply to #630435)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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I order the starter from IMI, he said that the website it is not working and they only use quality Denso parts. I Will post pictures of the product when arrived.
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hemidenis
Posted 2024-05-09 7:29 PM (#635125 - in reply to #630435)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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Got the IMI version of the starter, I have to install it and do a video of the difference.. hope it work
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hemidenis
Posted 2024-05-09 7:29 PM (#635126 - in reply to #630435)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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Pic



(20240509_193101.jpg)



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1960fury
Posted 2024-05-15 10:10 AM (#635199 - in reply to #630435)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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Finally got around and installed the new Wosp starter. My flange required a lot more grinding, I'd say around 1/3 rd of the flange circumference. Even after that, it wouldn't fit. Had to ream the bolt holes slightly. I didn't want to force the aluminum flange into the register. Measured the distance from mating surface to the ring gear and as guessed, the pinion did not engage fully. Only about 1/4", ring gear is 3/8", that with the spacer removed! Imagine If I installed it out of the box...

I only had the choice between 2 bolt positions, the more favorable made the upper bolt, that requires a nut now, a bit difficult to install. Unfortunately I found out too late, that the bellhousing accepts larger M12 bolts too, I could have cut a thread into the starter flange, to screw a stud in it, but reaming the hole made it too big for that.
On the plus side, I could leave the battery cables absolutely unchanged, just had to reroute them. Something I really like, as I can go back to OE anytime easily. Only the OE relay wire (that's still like new) didn't fit and I replaced it as a whole. Engine wasn't hot yet, but cold the new starter does not turn the engine over any faster. Pictures follow. Writing from my cellphone I somehow can't scroll back, I forgot^, the pinion wasn't pressed on, it's spring loaded. To make it fully engage in the ring gear, the lock ring needs to be removed, a 3,5mm (in my case) spacer "pipe" added to the shaft to keep the spring tension and a small washer needs to be welded to the end of the shaft, to secure the pinion. Finally I re-checked with machinist dye on the pinion. Coincidentally, when the pinion is perfectly aligned, it is flush with the end of the shaft. So that is nice but this was far from plug and play, at least in my case, not having to change the cables, was a very pleasant surprise.

Edited by 1960fury 2024-05-15 7:49 PM




(wosp1.jpg)



(wosp2.jpg)



(wosp3.jpg)



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Attachments wosp1.jpg (12KB - 62 downloads)
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Attachments wosp3.jpg (27KB - 70 downloads)
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1960fury
Posted 2024-05-15 12:30 PM (#635205 - in reply to #630435)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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Bottom line, DO NOT INSTALL ONE OF THESE STARTERS WITHOUT CHECKING ALIGNMENT FIRST

Production tolerances are probably pretty big, but in my case, (even at 370k miles the engine was never separated from the torque converter, everything untouched oe) the out of the box starter was not acceptable. The distance from starter mating surface to ring gear is 40mm.

Edited by 1960fury 2024-05-15 8:06 PM
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1960fury
Posted 2024-05-15 12:45 PM (#635206 - in reply to #635205)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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1. Remove lock cup and C-clip, pinion will slide off

2. Add a 3.5 mm pipe spacer to the shaft, to keep spring tension

3. Weld a washer to the end of the shaft as a pinion retainer. This will move the pinion out by about 3.5 mm. If yours requires less, you can addjust it with shims, prior to welding.



(wosp.jpg)



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1960fury
Posted 2024-05-15 7:37 PM (#635208 - in reply to #635206)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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Wow! Thourougly tested it. Hot day in Germany. No longer dead slow hot starts! The engine starts when you just look at the ignition key! No difference hot or cold and I was wrong, it turns the engine much faster. So far I'm 110% satisfied. If it lasts 50 years, is another question. I think I will fabricate a heat shield for it, as it sits directly above the header collector.
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hemidenis
Posted 2024-05-15 11:04 PM (#635213 - in reply to #630435)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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awesome job!! I have to do mine too!!
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hemidenis
Posted 2024-05-15 11:13 PM (#635214 - in reply to #630435)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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so my understanding is that you removed the number 1 spacer in your picture so it can get closer to the converter gear, but added another spacer in the back of it, so it will not lose tension with the spring pushing it forward. Right?
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1960fury
Posted 2024-05-16 8:54 AM (#635216 - in reply to #635214)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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Yes. #1 isn't a spacer, it is a lock that keeps the pinion on the shaft. There is a spring on the shaft behind/under the pinion that pushes the pinion against the lock, If you move the pinion outward, the spring loses tension, hence the spacer. It is a very easy modification, just be careful with the welding. Sorry that I forgot taking pictures.

Meanwhile I found a WOSP starter that is made for 58-61 Mopar Big Blocks, that does not require any grinding!

Edited by 1960fury 2024-05-16 8:58 AM
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1960fury
Posted 2024-05-16 11:19 PM (#635223 - in reply to #635214)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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May I introduce you the WOSP LMS522..... Fits FL Big Blocks without flange mods, because it was made for 58-61 Big Block Torqueflite cars only!
Note the outward flange overhang, to cover the T-flite bellhousing and the absence of the inner.

Well, you guessed it, there is a catch..... It was made for Facel Vegas, which used Mopar drivetrains and because of the "exclusive" potential buyers..... it is about $100 more. At least I couldn't find it cheaper. Not worth it for me.



(wospds.png)



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mstrug
Posted 2024-05-17 7:58 AM (#635227 - in reply to #630435)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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Nine tooth? WOSP LMS522? https://www.google.com/shopping/product/1?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=WOS... I don't see the original part number here. Is $225 a hundred over?
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1960fury
Posted 2024-05-17 9:57 AM (#635229 - in reply to #630435)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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Google "Facel Vega Wosp starter" or "lms522 starter Motor". I do not know, how you managed it not to find it. Your search link does not show it. Where do you see $225?

Edited by 1960fury 2024-05-17 10:03 AM
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mstrug
Posted 2024-05-17 1:46 PM (#635235 - in reply to #630435)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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$224.67
+$23.99 est. tax
+$23.99 estimated tax
Free delivery by Tue, May 28
eBay - rareelectricalOpens in a new window
Visit site
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Buy now
PayPal, Google Pay accepted
Report a listing
Wosp High Torque Gear Reduction Starter Fits Common Dune Buggy
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mstrug
Posted 2024-05-17 1:48 PM (#635236 - in reply to #630435)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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https://www.ebay.com/itm/126148262844?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid...
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SduwQBnFCx8Y70aAny5EALw_wcB
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mstrug
Posted 2024-05-17 1:53 PM (#635238 - in reply to #630435)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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https://mossmotors.com/140-362-cp-high-torque-starter-by-wosp-perfor...
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mstrug
Posted 2024-05-17 1:55 PM (#635239 - in reply to #630435)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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https://www.pelicanparts.com/More_Info/WSPLMS164.htm?pn=WSP-LMS164
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1960fury
Posted 2024-05-17 2:21 PM (#635240 - in reply to #630435)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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Can you see the difference in flange design and afaik, FLs are Not dune Buggys, or Porsche or Mercedes...Not?

Edited by 1960fury 2024-05-17 8:06 PM
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1960fury
Posted 2024-05-17 2:25 PM (#635241 - in reply to #630435)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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None of your links lead to a FL application.....? Weird
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hemidenis
Posted 2024-05-21 11:04 PM (#635304 - in reply to #630435)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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The explanation is perfect Sid, Thanks. I just have to find the time for install it...

Edited by hemidenis 2024-05-21 11:05 PM
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1960fury
Posted 2024-05-22 9:11 AM (#635311 - in reply to #635304)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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You are welcome, Denis. Best way to check it, is to run it first with machinist dye on the pinion. Let us know how yours fit
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hemidenis
Posted 2024-05-22 11:00 PM (#635326 - in reply to #630435)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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I will with a video of the results.
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1960fury
Posted 2024-05-23 9:37 PM (#635334 - in reply to #630435)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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Great!
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1960fury
Posted 2024-06-06 9:32 PM (#635574 - in reply to #630435)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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After I made a couple of request, I got contacted by WOSP...... and the price for the 58-61 Big Block (Facel Vega) starter is $495.... So FLs have to keep modding the slightly incorrect flange. Funny their price, as both starters are 99,9% identical, but as I said, "Facel Vega"....
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1960fury
Posted 2024-06-06 9:41 PM (#635575 - in reply to #630435)
Subject: Re: 1961 starter interchange



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In summer I use my 60 as a normal car daily, so hundreds of starts later, everything still works perfect. Great starter so far. maybe I was wrong about stating it turns faster when cold, I think I was deceived by the sound of the starter motor. Building up oil pressure (ignition off) takes a bit longer now, which makes sense, since its a gear reduction starter, more torque, less speed, but when hot it turns the engine much, much faster and that was the problem. So I'm still 100% satisfied.
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